The Passion...

[BBQ Platypus]

Of course, assuming that this life IS all there is, what the fuck do you care?  If you want to talk about the cold, harsh reality of the universe, I have one for you: RELIGION IS NOT GOING AWAY.  You can interpret that as being for better or for worse, but the fact is that the human mind is wired to want to think the world makes sense.  You can waste your life moaning about it if you want - go ahead.  You're essentially negating the one potential benefit of being an atheist: not having to worry or think about the whole "God" thing.

Remember the bit I said about leaving it better than your found it?  I believe that.  To see millions of people dying because some jerkoff in a funny hat sits in luxury a couple of thousand miles away and wants to cast judgment and scare people with ghost stories is despicable.

Religion IS going away.  Atheism is on the rise world wide.  Soon, christian mythology will be viewed the same way we look at Greek mythology (or the way that most christians view the Islam)

Also, you are right about not "worrying" about god.  I put down that bag of bricks YEARS ago.  And you could too if you didn't hate yourself so much.

I'm sorry if this seems like ranting to you, but the only people who piss me off more than sanctimonious, condescending religious types are the sanctimonious, condescending atheist types.  And you ARE being sanctimonious and condescending.  Bullshit or not, it's their decision how they want to lead their lives, regardless of how stupid it may seem to you.

In the same way that christians want to save people from hell, many Atheists want people to overcome the programing they received as children and begin to think critically on their own.

Assuming such beliefs DID die out, the fact of the matter is that people would just find something else to fight about.  The world still faces poverty, war, and famine, and it probably always will (at least until God / nuclear war / robots / the Republican National Committee show up to destroy the world).

And to refer to non-literalism as "revisionist backpedaling" is to completely ignore religious history.  Christian cosmogony has NEVER been set in stone - non-literalists go back as far as Herodotus and St. Augustine (that's the 5th Century AD, in case you're wondering).

It not infrequently happens that something about the earth, about the sky, about other elements of this world, about the motion and rotation or even the magnitude and distances of the stars, about definite eclipses of the sun and moon, about the passage of years and seasons, about the nature of animals, of fruits, of stones, and of other such things, may be known with the greatest certainty by reasoning or by experience, even by one who is not a Christian. It is too disgraceful and ruinous, though, and greatly to be avoided, that he [the non-Christian] should hear a Christian speaking so idiotically on these matters, and as if in accord with Christian writings, that he might say that he could scarcely keep from laughing when he saw how totally in error they are. In view of this and in keeping it in mind constantly while dealing with the book of Genesis, I have, insofar as I was able, explained in detail and set forth for consideration the meanings of obscure passages, taking care not to affirm rashly some one meaning to the prejudice of another and perhaps better explanation.

With the scriptures it is a matter of treating about the faith. For that reason, as I have noted repeatedly, if anyone, not understanding the mode of divine eloquence, should find something about these matters [about the physical universe] in our books, or hear of the same from those books, of such a kind that it seems to be at variance with the perceptions of his own rational faculties, let him believe that these other things are in no way necessary to the admonitions or accounts or predictions of the scriptures. In short, it must be said that our authors knew the truth about the nature of the skies, but it was not the intention of the Spirit of God, who spoke through them, to teach men anything that would not be of use to them for their salvation.

Although I don't entirely agree with Augustine's form of cosmogony (which you are free to look up if you're curious), I think he makes a good point about the unimportance of the "how."

You proved my point there... make your predictions and "beliefs" generic enough, people will find a way to validate them.

god is never wrong because things are kept generic enough where there is enough doubt to dissuade any arguments.

"Why did little Jimmy die?"

"Because god called him home.. it's HIS plan"

"Why did little Jimmy live?"

"Because god thought that Jimmy still had things to do on Earth"

HE WINS EVERY TIME!

Revisionist backpeddling also gets you garbage like this (which many christians teach to their children as science fact) (: Source - Jesus Camp)

(sighs) You see, guys?  THIS is why I hate religious debates: because I always invariably get lumped in with the folks who believe that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church.  I am treated to angry, and logical critiquing free of name-calling and claims that I somehow "hate myself."  I could go into detail of how many rules of polite discourse you've broken, but I don't want to spend any more time writing this post than I absolutely have to.  

I would have loved to elaborate my position, clarify some of my statements, and discuss exactly why I believe what I believe, but I'm really not going to bother with it if I will only be insulted for doing so.  I thought this forum was better than this.  It turns out I was horribly mistaken.

In conclusion, I am dropping the fuck out of this thread.  Hell, maybe even this FORUM.  (We'll see).

(For an example of a civilized, flame-free, yet still highly engaging debate on religion looks like, click here.  It's kind of sad that you've successfully out-assholed a thread entitled "God Doesn't Work, Faith is a Trick."  Nice job, guys).

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

hey platy dont quit so soon just because ONE person was rude.

besides we all know adam and eve didnt ride dinasours to church (those were their work vehicles) they rode unicorns

[Moon Blast]

Living a life without God is meaningless and we might as well eat, drink and be merry for tomorrow we die and the world and the rest of the universe is an utter waist. If i knew i was going to no longer exist after death, i would be crapping my pants right now if i knew that was a fact. Why anyone would believe we are simply here by accident is beyond me. Why should anything exist at all then if that were the case. So there is no point to anything whatsoever? That is a scary thought.

This is exactly why most people follow a religion in my opinion, essentially fear and a need for their lives to mean something.


What i follow goes beyond religion but it is a personal relationship with my God. If life did not mean anything then what is the point for life to exist. Why are we where and what is our purpose then, answer me that.

[/quote]

[Moon Blast]

hey platy dont quit so soon just because ONE person was rude.

besides we all know adam and eve didnt ride dinasours to church (those were their work vehicles) they rode unicorns

Ok, that is downright offensive and not to mention immature of you to even say such a thing but this is to be expected as we Christians are to expect personal attacks from the secular world, this has been going on all throughout history unfortunately but this is what makes is stronger in out faith the end.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

im sorry moon, i see how my comment could be mistaken.  I am a christian and my views are well known by some of those who post more regularly. 

My comment was sarcasm.  Pure and simple.  I see the views like: Christians believe that Adam and Eve rode dinosaurs to church

and just have to laugh at the egotism and the stupidity involved all around.

[torgosPizza]

I would have loved to elaborate my position, clarify some of my statements, and discuss exactly why I believe what I believe, but I'm really not going to bother with it if I will only be insulted for doing so.  I thought this forum was better than this.  It turns out I was horribly mistaken.

If it makes you feel better, I'm genuinely curious. Remember that all of our opinions are only our own, and you shouldn't think all of your debating has become invalid simply because of what one person has said, whether it's insulting or not. I know, probably doesn't make sense - I apologize for that, it's late

well can you find a rational argument for object morality without some sort of deity?  Its been done many times before (although ironically never on this forum despite my request multiple times).  The closest we have gotten it your twice stated example of morality as a result of evolution.  Which quite frankly i still dont understand. 

Honestly, I think you can, just as you can argue nature vs. nurture. Since none of us was around when an idea such as this would've been "conceived," I think it can still go down the path of a logical discourse. I've heard or read that the concept of self-preservation possibly having been learned, just as many good ideas are learned from generations to the next - "fire is hot" and "eat something or you'll starve to death." I know plenty of people (myself included) who get their morals from somewhere other than a deity. How did they reach this conclusion, aside from plenty of self-reflection and rational thought? Dawkins argues that it is a genetically inherited trait, similar to all of our other traits but undeniably more nuanced because it is not generational, but more species-wide.

I don't quite understand his argument either, since I'm still a student learning much of this, but from what I gather, you can treat it as a byproduct of having lived in small tribes during the period of Australopithecus africanus, or others. Their tribes generally would have consisted of the immediate family, where the "ropes" so to speak, were shown down the familial hierarchy. A baby is born, it is taught to respect its elders, and as most social organisms behave, respect and emulate his or her parents.

Now, perhaps the innate concept of protecting one's own genetic blueprint wasn't understood by their primitive brains; in all likelihood, it wasn't. But imagine the look of discovery on the face of the still-to-be-evolved primate rescues its sibling from a chilly river, saved from a certain icy death. Because they are related, not just by blood, but by a genetic recognition that is inherent to their subconscious primate brain made the act instinctive.

The idea is that this sort of "conservation of the family genes" behavior, because it was BENEFICIAL to the species' survival, evolved, just as the ability to use tools and to, eventually, communicate vocally. Even though today, we are no longer in such tribes (some people do live with an immediate extended family), in general it's obvious that killing a member of our own species is bad. Regardless of the fact that we are not related to most of the people on the planet, ti is part of our instinctive, subconscious, human nature not to do harm unto one another.

[Moon Blast]

As to torgosPizza statement.

Believe what you may, you have that right. I do hope you get a chance to read that book i had suggested and perhaps watch that video as well. I made a choice not to believe in evolution, i do not believe in creation because i was raised in that environment, this was a very careful choice of mine through years of reasoning and research and not because i was forced to believe of out of fear nor ignorance if anyone suggests otherwise that is.

I will leave this forum in peace and do hope that there are some that can come to reason and really look deep into the facts through literature, videos and other evidences that will present solutions to these very important matters because what you believe and why you believe it will determine on how you live your life.       

[torgosPizza]

What i follow goes beyond religion but it is a personal relationship with my God. If life did not mean anything then what is the point for life to exist. Why are we where and what is our purpose then, answer me that.

That is to assume that life has a meaning. Someone mentioned earlier that it's the human mind that struggles to make everything have meaning, everything needs to make sense. The question I would ask you is, why would life require meaning? Isn't it enough just to be a good person?

Believe what you may, you have that right. I do hope you get a chance to read that book i had suggested and perhaps watch that video as well. I made a choice not to believe in evolution, i do not believe in creation because i was raised in that environment, this was a very careful choice of mine through years of reasoning and research and not because i was forced to believe of out of fear nor ignorance if anyone suggests otherwise that is.

I will leave this forum in peace and do hope that there are some that can come to reason and really look deep into the facts through literature, videos and other evidences that will present solutions to these very important matters because what you believe and why you believe it will determine on how you live your life.       

The only problem I have with your arguments so far, are that all of those are easily debunked by scientific literature. You are asking us to come to reason and "look deep into the facts" - but I'm reassuring you, that all of the facts in scientific research point to the validity of the theory of evolution.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

I will leave this forum in peace

sigh dont leave thats utterly utterly useless to the debate and does not help and is not a civil way of doing things.  

well torgo ill post later today the name of a atheistic objective moralist.  I just dont have my copy of it on me.  I also need to get some thoughts together.  As i understand it genetic morality like what you are saying would be a bit different from what im saying.  But i dont have that argument together yet.  

Isn't it enough just to be a good person?

is it?  most people dont think so.  Does that imply something or is it just an odd fact. 

[torgosPizza]

Wow, I stumped you?!?!  SWEET!!!!

Shut up, I'll take what I can get!

Just kidding. Looking forward to it, good buddy, over!

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

i dunno about stumped lol  its just i havent dealt with any one who thinks morality is intrinsically genetic. So to not look like a total ass (for a first) i want to gather my thoughts. 

Looking forward to it, good buddy, over!

isnt the forum exactly like talking via a radio lol kidna funny really.

[RobtheBarbarian]

Breaker one-nine!

The perfect moment to roll out my laboriously-captured picture of Servo's trucker body.

"You have no butt!"

[J-Proof]

I am tempted to make a life-size costume version of that for Kevin to wear next Halloween =)

[ScottotD]

One of the things that makes me really wonder how brainwashed (for want of a better term) religious people are is that not even groups in the same denomination/sect can decide amongst themselves which parts are 'real' and which are metaphors.

Why are we where and what is our purpose then, answer me that.

Chance and there is none.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

wouldnt that show an obvious LACK of any brainwashing if people are in constant question?