The Passion...

[mrthejazz]

All I can say is after mutating bacteria over and over to make them do whatever you want, I cannot but defend to the death evolution being true. But then I hope my view isnt at all less acceptable than a god.

That's a very valid point, except that YOU are consciously mutating those bacteria, and evolutionary theory dictates it is a strictly random and unconscious event. It's one thing to say that bacteria mutate or that life varies and changes a little, (such as the finch beak thing). It's another thing to say that over many many years bacteria mutated the way they did, across kingdom lines to eventually form humans. I believe the former, but not necessarily the latter. I believe that at least some of the latter stems from biased science. You may be able to make bacteria change, but I'm willing to bet you can't turn bacteria into a bunny rabbit or a cat, or Tom Servo.

I don't think science contradicts my view of God because I know that scientific information, while informing my beliefs, can never be 100% accurate. It may make me change my beliefs, or make me think it wise to change my beliefs, but it only informs my decisions. For example, I'm not quite the literalist I was in my youth. Still, it doesn't outright obliterate my belief entirely. And really, a tiny insignificant glimmer of hope is all you really need. I also think a lot of society is jaded because they see this idealistic God, compare it to His screw-up, murderous, asshole "servants" and think that one equates the other. For the record, people, Fred Phelps is not the poster boy for God. Hell, he's not even the poster-boy for Christians, although it's people like him that make people hate Christians so much.

Well, I think I'm done debating. It's impossible to debate without making oneself look like an asshole, and I'm pretty sure I've already done that. Sorry everybody. The worse part of it is that it almost seems impossible to persuade anyone nowadays on anything, because people will believe what they believe. So really, I've just spit out a bunch of hot air and polluted this thread with noise. Sorry about that. It just irks me a little when I read in a thread or hear a comedian say something like "Man, do I hate Christians, they're the source of ALL our troubles." To that I say, really, well my mom baked some cookies for you, but since she's a Christian, I bet you think she poisoned them in the name of Jesus. Better not eat them.

[Deckard25]

mrthejazz...

I feel your frustration but please remember that only God can change a person's heart condition, we are only human, fallible and sinful. No matter how much we try to talk sense into the secular world we will always be criticized, mis-understood and mocked.


gbeenie...

I am not going to bother with trying to prove to you about God, creation and the Bible because no matter how much evidance i would provide and no matter how much research i could do to back my beliefs up judging by your mentality it is not that you do not want to believe, it is that you choose not to believe. I can not change your heart condition, only God is capable of doing that task. I can understand that the secular would will attack us, call us names, blame the evil in the world in the name of God, call us unintellectual fanatics and there are some out there that even want us dead.

I tell you what, why don't you do some research and try to get that proof sense you are the one with the doubts. I say this out of kindness because i want you to see where the truth is and say that you had tested the waters and sought after the truth. I had provided some good links but whether or not these were looked at with absolute careful discernment i will never know.

My faith in my God makes me curtain without doubt and the research i had done with the evidance at hand.

I thought i had brought what i had said earlier to closer, there are some who still wish to remain in attack mode with emotions flying high and unreasonable assumptions based on blind faith, limited sketchy research and worldly post-modern ideology.

I can not reason with people that do so choose to be unreasonable and remain close minded. It is there choice after all even though it is very sad. Seek truth for yourself.       

and God never damned anything......

[SaucyRossy]

The Passion is so 2004! You are all lamers.

[Quicksilver]

That's a very valid point, except that YOU are consciously mutating those bacteria, and evolutionary theory dictates it is a strictly random and unconscious event. It's one thing to say that bacteria mutate or that life varies and changes a little, (such as the finch beak thing). It's another thing to say that over many many years bacteria mutated the way they did, across kingdom lines to eventually form humans. I believe the former, but not necessarily the latter. I believe that at least some of the latter stems from biased science. You may be able to make bacteria change, but I'm willing to bet you can't turn bacteria into a bunny rabbit or a cat, or Tom Servo.

All my point was, is that when learning about evolution, about how genes swap, have small errors which lead to big mutations, it's tough to question evolution........for me. Seeing it in real time happen in 40minutes. Basically go from a colony of plain old ecoli bacteria and make them not only resistant to penicillin, but also glow like lightning bugs. I mean it wasnt hard at all. You actually can watch evolution in real time without inserting plasmids into their dna sequence(which is what we did), you can make them adapt just by changing environmental conditions. This is real evolution and is the reason every year we all get the flu, we all get colds, we all get weird stomach bugs. Due to the fact that the bacteria/viruses adapted to our immune systems and our manmade vaccines meant to stop them. Mutations ARE random, however those organisms with mutations may live or die. This IS NOT random. Lets say you have 1,000,000 bacteria living in a petri dish, most stay normal, a few mutate RANDOMLY.

Heres the tricky part, some bacteria might reproduce faster, some slower, some may become resistant to certain drugs, some may get less resistant. Some may turn purple, some green. Now when does evolution occur? WHEN SOMETHING CHANGES. Lets say the temperature drops from 98 degrees to 78 degrees and there happens to be some bacteria in there that can withstand 78 degrees, while the rest cannot. The rest die leaving only bacteria that can grow in 78 degrees. Then lets say we inject these temperature tolerant bacteria into a person. Remember all those weird mutations I just mentioned? Now they all come into play, except maybe the purple bacteria, they survive, but have no purpose beyond their original genetic configuration. So this bacteria infects a person, stays a while and spreads to another person. We might now be dealing with bacteria that have been selected for temperature, reproduction speed, resistance to drugs and maybe purple. After many generations, which doesnt take long with bacteria, these modified bacteria become so different from those originally in the petri dish that they cannot reproduce with them.

This is now A NEW SPECIES. Point being this is how mutations work, they're random, but which mutations get selected is not. Beneficial mutations to the organism are "kept," while those that are not, may be expressed or not and may be carried on or not, may survive or not. Humans think small, you must think big when trying to comprehend mutations in these like ourselves. Species, do not cross kingdom lines, those lines were drawn when the kingdoms themselves formed. A lot of the misconceptions people have about evolution, are caused by the mere fact that they did not study this field. It's not some easy theory to grasp, just because the theory of evolution can be stated in two sentences, doesn't mean it wont take you a life time to fully grasp.

I'm sure, the next argument will be, well what does bacteria have to do with us? Well, large scale evolutionary changes in humans are impossible to observe, in the microscopic world they are possible to observe. Observation is only one part, you need to understand genetics, which believe me, is not easy AT ALL. this would be like me arguing religious texts without having read them. I have read the "evolutionary texts" so to speak. If you want to learn more about evolution, pick up a book. Here's a small list of classes I endured before figuring it out.
BIO I-IV
Genetics 1&2
Evolution
General Ecology
Plant ecology
Animal ecology
Statistical analysis
Calc I-IV
Physics I-IV
Not bragging, it's not an easy subject. Try to read the above statement, I did really attempt to explain this. Just keep an open mind and remember god can exist with this being true. 
*awaiting attempt to rip me a new one*

[torgosPizza]

Well said, Quicksilver. Usually when people use "random" and "evolution" in the same sentence, they don't know what they're talking about.

[gbeenie]

oh yeah, what are carne fries?

Prepare yourself.... for the wonder of....

CARNE FRIES!!!!

That is sex on a plate.

[torgosPizza]

Believe me, it tastes as good as it looks.

It's awesome!