The Passion...

[RandyMistie]

No, it was either that or AFL so I watched it. 

wow, now thats what i call a lose lose situation.

and the anti-semitic leanings were kind of... sad... (I don't get why some Christians blame Jews for killing Christ when that's apparently what God wanted all along...) but even as a Pagan/Wiccan I can see the beauty of this story because it has been played out a thousand times by a thousand civilizations.

i didnt see an anti semitic leaning in the movie, or in the story.  Nor do i personally know a christian who "blames" the jews.  The Jews didnt kill Jesus, some of their religious leaders helped get him hanged but i fail to see the importance of that on any sort of racial level. 

Seriously?  You don't know that a common anti-semitic remark is "Christ-Killer"?  You don't know that one of the Vatican II Conference points was to "forgive the Jews for killing Christ..."?  That the movie was based on a Swedish play, (The Passion Play) that has been performed every year about this time and that Hitler loved it as did Mel Gibson's father who was hugely anti-semitic?  I am listening to Jesus Christ Superstar right now and it clearly developes the concept that Pontius Pilate (Rome) wanted to let Jesus go but the Jews wanted him killed.  Even Cartman from "South Park" picked up on it.  I mean... c'mon, I'm drunk but... the idea that Jews killed Christ is a pretty common idea in much of your more silly Christianity...

I say silly Christianity, because the smart, well educated Christians on this board would certainly realize that anti-semitism was stupid and the idea that they are "Christ Killers" is antithetical to their own religion.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

You don't know that a common anti-semitic remark is "Christ-Killer"? 

never heard that outside of southpark actually

You don't know that one of the Vatican II Conference points was to "forgive the Jews for killing Christ..."? 

the vatican has been known to do silly dumb things before and probably will again in the future

(The Passion Play) that has been performed every year about this time and that Hitler loved it

yeah but hitler was nuts, who knows what he liked, he also had a penchant for the occult from what ive heard.

I am listening to Jesus Christ Superstar right now and it clearly developes the concept that Pontius Pilate (Rome) wanted to let Jesus go but the Jews wanted him killed

If i remeber right the bible itself makes this point.  however its not the jews.  its the sadduceas (damned spelling) the religious leaders ive mentioned.  Jesus was constantly at their theological throats for the things they did, further What jesus was saying was Blashemy to them. 

[ScottotD]

yeah but hitler was nuts, who knows what he liked, he also had a penchant for the occult from what ive heard.

Also, a vegetarian (shudder).

[RandyMistie]

Well, my point is that many Christians blame the Jews for killing Christ and I think I made that point.  Just because you've never met them, I, and my Jewish friends, have.

And my ultimate point was, even if you DO think that the Jews killed Christ, why wouldn't you THANK them?  I mean, they were carrying out God's will, afterall.  Right? Am I right?  Let me get another drink....

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

Just because you've never met them, I, and my Jewish friends, have

i fully admit that this is true.  Which of course is why i said what ive met only.

And my ultimate point was, even if you DO think that the Jews killed Christ, why wouldn't you THANK them?  I mean, they were carrying out God's will, afterall.  Right? Am I right?

yes you are right, i dunno if thanking them is the right thing to do, but one could hardly BLAME them in any negative fashion. 

[Thom_Serveaux]

I think it's commonality, the idea that the jews killed Christ, ended in the mid 50's or so.  Now by and large it's used in the manner of a farce, portraying the stereotypical backwater ignorant 'bible belt' fundamentalist.  The same way that 'all asians are good at math, but really bad drivers, and my favorite that they ALWAYS mispronounce the 'L' sound with an 'R' sound, with the implication that its' due to some intellectual failing in their genes...

[Pak-Man]

Here's the dealio with the Jews and Jesus (And a proper christian education should include this perspective.) The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Savior (And still don't). The Jews saw blasphemy on a grand scale and, in their culture at that time, that was one of the most heinous crimes you could commit was to claim to be God/The Son of God. The Jews believed they were doing the right thing, or at the very least were afraid for being ostricized for siding with Jesus. Blaming the Jews for Jesus' death (Which was a necessity for our salvation anyway) is like blaming the white people of today for Slavery, or modern German's for the Holocaust. It's a petty grudge, and that's something Jesus would have frowned on. The passion isn't about how the Jews killed Jesus, it's about how Jesus died because of how SOCIETY (Which, granted, was largely Jewish at the time) was acting in that day and age.

[RandyMistie]

Here's the dealio with the Jews and Jesus (And a proper christian education should include this perspective.) The Jews didn't believe Jesus was the Savior (And still don't). The Jews saw blasphemy on a grand scale and, in their culture at that time, that was one of the most heinous crimes you could commit was to claim to be God/The Son of God. The Jews believed they were doing the right thing, or at the very least were afraid for being ostricized for siding with Jesus. Blaming the Jews for Jesus' death (Which was a necessity for our salvation anyway) is like blaming the white people of today for Slavery, or modern German's for the Holocaust. It's a petty judge, and that's something Jesus would have frowned on. The passion isn't about how the Jews killed Jesus, it's about how Jesus died because of how SOCIETY (Which, granted, was largely Jewish at the time) was acting in that day and age.

Hmmm... well, depending on which gospel you want to believe, Jesus, (or Yeshua, whatever), never really said he was the Son of God.  The reason that respectable Jews of the time hated him was that he was an Essene which was a radical splinter group of Judaism that claimed that people didn't need a priesthood to go to God.  They could go to him themselves... THAT was his blasphemy.  He was trying to edge out the priests.

The Essenes were to the Jews what Branch Davidians were to Christians today.  Jesus was like David Kouresh back then.

But, ultimately, it is very likely, historically speaking, and I hope I don't offend anyone by saying this, that Yeshua was simply rounded up at random as was Pontius Pilate's habit.  He liked to do periodic, random killing of Jews just to keep them in line.  The Jews may not have been involved at all.

[PlayMSTie]

Where on earth did you get that version? Dan Brown and Ronny Howard?

[RandyMistie]

ooops, sorry.  Don't listen to me... I ramble...

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

technically what you do is you drunken ramble which is a totally different type of ramble (i know because ive done it many a time) 

ps i dont really think you were rambling, but i also dont think there is a gospel where he doesnt claim divinity.

[RandyMistie]

technically what you do is you drunken ramble which is a totally different type of ramble (i know because ive done it many a time) 

ps i dont really think you were rambling, but i also dont think there is a gospel where he doesnt claim divinity.

Yeah, I just don't want to get into it with Christianity, so I'd rather just back down.  What I was talking about is historically accurate, but not really biblical so... people don't like it.  Several of the Dead Sea Scroll interpreters commited suicide, for goodness sakes!

As far Yeshua not claiming divinity, I'll just say this, eh... there was at least one gospel where when He is asked if He is the son of God He says, "You say I am..." and of course, even His early followers couldn't decide.  There were fist fights in the streets of Rome over it.  Hence the Nicean Council, to decide once and for all, and how long did that take?  Like weeks of arguing, right?

The important thing though, that if you believe that He is, then that's all that matters.  He is a symbol for your life and I would never, never, never, try to debate that with anyone.  All paths lead to God.  Jesus is just all right with me!

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

technically what you do is you drunken ramble which is a totally different type of ramble (i know because ive done it many a time) 

ps i dont really think you were rambling, but i also dont think there is a gospel where he doesnt claim divinity.

Yeah, I just don't want to get into it with Christianity, so I'd rather just back down.  What I was talking about is historically accurate, but not really biblical so... people don't like it.  Several of the Dead Sea Scroll interpreters commited suicide, for goodness sakes!

As far Yeshua not claiming divinity, I'll just say this, eh... there was at least one gospel where when He is asked if He is the son of God He says, "You say I am..." and of course, even His early followers couldn't decide.  There were fist fights in the streets of Rome over it.  Hence the Nicean Council, to decide once and for all, and how long did that take?  Like weeks of arguing, right?

The important thing though, that if you believe that He is, then that's all that matters.  He is a symbol for your life and I would never, never, never, try to debate that with anyone.  All paths lead to God.  Jesus is just all right with me!

It wasn't that they didn't agree that he was divine, but how much Jesus was of the Father.  There were two thoughts: homoousios and homoiousios.  Homoousios means that Christ was the "same" as God, while Homoiousios meant that Christ was "like" God.  Much like everything else, it was a ridiculous over-complication that had to be corrected by the Nicene Creed which began by relating that Christ was from the ousia or substance of the Father and that he was the same.  (p. 34- 36, The Baker History of the Church, Vol. 2 by Ivor j.  Davidson)

Christ did say he was God quite blatantly because he said he could forgive sins.  Only God could forgive sins, and no prophet would make that claim.

EDIT:  By the way, I recommend that series if you are interested in a comphrehensive and scholarly historical reference on the Church.  Also, about when Christ was questioned in Mathew by the Sanhedrin about if he was the Son of God, he said this in chapter 26, verse 64:  "...It is as you said.  Nevertheless, I say to you, hereafter you will see..."  Mark has as thus in Chapter 14, verse 62: "...'I am.  And you will see the Son of Man sitting at the right hand of the Power, and coming with the clouds of heaven."  John doesn't say this, but in Chapter 18, verse 36 Christ says in front of Pilate, "...'My kingdom is not of this world.  If My kingdom were of this world, My servants would fight, so that I should not be delivered to the Jews, but now My kingdom is not from here."

Christ intoned that he wasn't just a prince in the heavenly kingdom, but that it was "his".

[RandyMistie]

The important thing is, if Christ is important to you, then Christ is important to you.  History doesn't matter.  The image of The Christ is powerful and life changing.

That's what I hated about Dan Brown's stupid ass story, look, it doesn't matter what proof you have that Jesus was married and had kids or whatever, the true faithful would care less.  Brown's premise was that the Catholic Church would explode if they knew that Jesus was married... what?  I know and you know that it wouldn't make no difference and that completely dilutes the "thrillerness" of the story.

He obviously doesn't understand faith.  There have been a thousand documents that supposedly prove the Bible wrong, but does that matter to any one who believes in it?  NO!!  And it shouldn't.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

All paths lead to God.  Jesus is just all right with me!

unless you beleive what jesus and god have actually stated in the bible. 

and i refuse to get into yet ANOTHER relativism vs , debate again.