Does the "worshipping Satan" stuff bother anyone else?

[trobotcrow]

Actually, I was talking about ancient paganism, and how in order to spread Christianity the followers worked to either usurp it or stomp it out entirely in an attempt to spread their own religion [i.e. turning the pagan solstice tree into the Christmas Tree, or deeming pagans satanists because they did not worship Jesus].

Wicca, which is a modern version of paganism, also gets compared to Satanism -- and people were suggesting that the Rifftrax comments might have been a reflection of this line of thinking as opposed to an affirmation of it. I am not Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, Satanic, or even a fan of Harry Potter. One of the reasons I loved MST3k [and by extension, Rifftrax] was because of how erudite the cast was. Because of the things I've studied, I had worried that these comments were more the latter than the former.

For example -- I had done a large amount of research into the true stories that were woven together through verbal storytelling into now famous folk tales, and one such topic was the creation of the Merlin figure as Wizard. Apparently, those branded as witches and wizards would have been more akin to holistic healers or primitive doctors than what they've grown into in legends. In a time where even the practitioners had little understanding of the science behind their craft, they were often branded as agents of the devil.

I was looking at the branding of pagans as satanists, which certainly must be the source of that similar thinking with regards to wiccans. What didn't occur to me, perhaps because of the sheer number of references to it or my remoteness with regards to modern Christians speaking out against Harry Potter, was that perhaps the guys were mocking people who think that Harry Potter and anything that speaks of magic is satanic.

My original point was that I thought the Rifftrax guys were perpetuating this belief and wondered what others thought.

[RobtheBarbarian]

My original point was that I thought the Rifftrax guys were perpetuating this belief and wondered what others thought.

I think that the people who buy this riff either already know better, don't care or aren't going to be convinced otherwise by Nelson and Co. I've always assumed that the misunderstanding of Wicca as being Satanic is due more to garden variety fearfulness of the unfamiliar than an age-old smear campaign. Either way, ancient paganism is dead and relatively safe in it's obscurity and Wicca... well, I try not to think about Wicca.

[MSTJedi]

As a once conservative Christian who's gone over to the liberal (open-minded) side, once I actually saw the first movie and then read the books, I realized that Harry Potter was mere fantasy, not a glorification of real witchcraft or paganism. The Satan jokes bothered me a little at first, but then I just chalked it up to making fun of the idea of this fantasy being Satanic. If it had been a one- or two-shot joke, I might not have realized that they were being facetious with the Satan comments.

[ninjacat11]

Yeah, I saw it as more of a jab at the people who thought the movie was Satanic than an actual statement that the movie was Satanic.

I haven't seen this riff, but I am guessing that it's a jab at the "ZOMG SATANIC HARRY POTTER" crowd.

[AmandaGal]

If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls.  Right?  So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court?  According to their religion YOU ARE.  They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided.  If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites.  Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.

Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either.  Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty.  Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power.  Christians didn't invent that. 

We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan.   Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself.  And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts.  It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is. 

[MartyS (Gromit)]

If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls.  Right? 

Who do they worship in Harry Potter?  I have the books but haven't read them, but from the movies it would seem to be implied that they are Christian (celebrating Christmas and such).

I think the real mindset is anyone that doesn't belive the Bible is a direct literal quote from God is a Satanist.  It lets them lump all kinds of stuff into that category...

[Darth Geek]

The witches in the Harry Potter verse are more akin to mutants (a la the X-men) because a person has to be BORN with the ability to use magic. Also, it shows "magic" as having a set of rules and laws that they learn. So it is more an extended area of physics, just one that muggles are not able to access.
In the real world, people would have to sell their soul to the Devil or some such thing to be able to have magical powers. At least, in the Christian view, anyway.
So these things are entirely different. I agree with you, Marty:

I think the real mindset is anyone that doesn't belive the Bible is a direct literal quote from God is a Satanist.  It lets them lump all kinds of stuff into that category...

[AmandaGal]

I wasn't talking Harry Potter. I was replying to trobotcrow robot's post on September 3, where he talked about real life Wiccans and ancient pagans, not Harry Potter.

Harry Potter is a kid's book.  You could just as easily say C.S. Lewis' narnia series preaches Satanism (he writes about magic wardrobes, creatures and powers), but he is well known for being a Christian apologetics.  What about the Star Wars series?  Those guys are worshiping nanites  

They are fantasy.  No religion involved.  I agree.

[trobotcrow]

I didn't really understand it until I saw ninjacat11's post RE: ZOMG.

After reading about it, I found that apparently there is a group of Christian organizations that believe that both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings books are Satanic because they deal with the occult.

Their line of thinking is that any powers of the occult comes from Satan. Therefore if you practice the occult -- even if you don't actually worship Satan -- that means that you are sinning in the eyes of God. But it seems that their problems aren't with the characters of the books, but with the authors -- that they are trying to brainwash children into becoming agents of Satan.

I guess that has to do with what AmandaGal was saying.

Not realizing this, I mistakenly believed the Riffers were commenting on ancient religious biases [as opposed to a real modern movement]. I still say that my disconnect was not knowing if the guys were making fun of that train of thought or believed it themselves.

[MSTJedi]

If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls.  Right?  So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court?  According to their religion YOU ARE.  They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided.  If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites.  Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.

Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either.  Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty.  Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power.  Christians didn't invent that. 

We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan.   Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself.  And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts.  It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is. 

Try not to lump all Christians in the closed-minded, modern dogma. I know that's what you see and hear overwhelmingly in the media and on the airwaves, but not all who believe in Christ are so small-minded. The way I look at it, this is what I was led to believe and whatever else I have learned since my mainstream upbringing, I'm always led back to the core of those beliefs. The legalism of mainstream Christianity is nothing more than a mask for personal spite and hatred more often than not. One thing I do know is that I can never know the mind of God or even fathom all of what God wants for the world. So if others are led to other religions and are doing "good" (not by following laws, but by helping others, not harming them), then I have no real beef with them. I am not the judge.

That said, I always smile when I see the "reason for the season" stuff during Christmas. We don't know when Jesus was really born, not down to the the day, anyway, and Christmas was a hijacking of a pagan holiday. Same with Easter. I still celebrate the birth and death of Jesus at those times, but I also recognize the historical origin of the holidays (and the irony therein).

[RoninFox]

If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls.  Right?  So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court?  According to their religion YOU ARE.  They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided.  If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites.  Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.

Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either.  Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty.  Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power.  Christians didn't invent that. 

We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan.   Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself.  And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts.  It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is. 

Try not to lump all Christians in the closed-minded, modern dogma. I know that's what you see and hear overwhelmingly in the media and on the airwaves, but not all who believe in Christ are so small-minded. The way I look at it, this is what I was led to believe and whatever else I have learned since my mainstream upbringing, I'm always led back to the core of those beliefs. The legalism of mainstream Christianity is nothing more than a mask for personal spite and hatred more often than not. One thing I do know is that I can never know the mind of God or even fathom all of what God wants for the world. So if others are led to other religions and are doing "good" (not by following laws, but by helping others, not harming them), then I have no real beef with them. I am not the judge.

That said, I always smile when I see the "reason for the season" stuff during Christmas. We don't know when Jesus was really born, not down to the the day, anyway, and Christmas was a hijacking of a pagan holiday. Same with Easter. I still celebrate the birth and death of Jesus at those times, but I also recognize the historical origin of the holidays (and the irony therein).

Well said.  I know I'm occasionally guilty of lumping a lot of people together like that, but I try and label things as clearly when I complain that I'm not talking about, for example "Christians" but that I'm talking about "closed minded people" "crazy fundamentalists" etc.  Those can be of any faith.

[Doc Steve]

Personally, I think it is a lot more complicated than that. 

Regardless of their personal beliefs or backgrounds, it is obvious that most of the MST3K crew were very familiar with conventional Christendom, particularly Lutheranism.  (I think it's called "living in Minnesota.") 

While a lot of the "satanism" cracks are likely sarcastic or directed at people who attacked the Harry Potter series, the MSTies have a long track record with this sort of humor.  That is, magic = black magic, satanism, etc.  (See:  A Touch of Satan, Manos, etc. )  I don't think it is necessarily a coincidence. 

Additionally, Mike makes several comments along these lines in Movie Megacheese.  I forget the movie he was trashing, but he made the comment that it was a farce to include Satan in a fictional universe while completely omitting God. 

My best guess is that on some level, some of the MSTies are probably uncomfortable with that sort of portrayal.  That is, by depicting things like magic and demons in morally neutral terms, current popular culture makes these sort of things "OK" by completely robbing them of their context.  That is, television series and movies like Harry Potter, Buffy, Charmed, etc. completely whitewash all of the religious elements out of the story to appease various groups.  The heroes are "good," but in reference to what?  Vampires are "bad," but why?  Is if because they are servants of a Greater Evil, or just because they suck human blood and take all of the handicapped parking places?

I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing:  magic is evil.  By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order.  Divination, talking to spirits, etc. are consistently depicted as a means for evil spirits to possess or influence people contrary to Providence.  (The tragedy of Saul in 1 Samuel and the fate of Simon Magus in Acts are probably the best examples.)

Judeo-Christian views of paganism are strongly influenced by the religious practices of the Phillistines and Semitic neighbors such as the Moabites, Ammonites, etc.  As described in the Old Testament (and largely corraborated by archaeology), the neighbors of Israel practiced many barbaric rites that modern people associate with "Satanism," such as child sacrifice, self-mutilation, and "black magic."  We can debate how correct or incorrect these views might be forever, but that is almost certainly their origin. 

As another poster pointed out, conventional Christian morality isn't very flexible on these issues.  Worshipping any one of anything apart from the Christ is at best idolatry, a mortal sin.  Similarly, the only "unforgivable sin" is knowingly attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan. 

My point is this:  Mike makes too many "satanism" jokes (and has in the past) for it to be explained away very easily.  I suspect that his own religious background plays some role. 

[MartyS (Gromit)]

I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing:  magic is evil.  By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order. 

So construction projects like dams are satanic, cool....

[Doc Steve]

I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing:  magic is evil.  By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order. 

So construction projects like dams are satanic, cool....

Well, the Amish might think so.

Concrete isn't really "magic."  Don't believe the hype! 

[trobotcrow]

Not to disagree with Doc Steve's thoughtful and evidenced posting, but if the use of "magic" pre-dates Judaism and Christianity, then didn't the Judeo-Christians PUT an undeserving context on it? As opposed to modern uses of the mythology removing the context.

I think that's what I was trying unsuccessfully to get at originally. Not supporting any practices or theologies, part of my point was that Christianity put a Satanic value on something that wasn't intrinsically Satanic in origin. Doing something terrible and worshiping Satan are two entirely different things, and as someone else pointed out -- the Jewish and Christian God had people do terrible things in His name [including sacrifices]. It's that leap that I don't get.

I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.