Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - SPOILERS HERE

[Cyrusso]

I think what I meant to say was that Luke didn't really express that fear of turning to the dark side on a level that was really conveyed all that well to us. I felt like the whole message of the scene of him in the cave was that he failed the test because he just had to take his weapons with him. When Yoda and Obi-wan urge him to stay and complete the training, Luke doesn't express any feelings or fears about turning to the dark side. I always felt that Luke was always a genuine good guy and there wasn't anything really tempting him to turn to the dark side until that final scene where Vader motivates him via the most primal of emotions... rage by suggesting he will turn Leia to the dark side.

With Rey... she's seen the power before her, and it genuinely frightens her. I feel like she genuinely conveyed at the beginning of the third act how frightened she was of turning to the dark side. But unlike Luke, the impetus to turn her would have been revenge, revenge for her mother and her father. The fact she has Palpatine's blood adds an interesting dynamic because it felt to me like she was a lot more prone to falling to the dark side. The fact that she could see, that she saw what she was becoming, and instead of leaving Kylo Ren to die, she realized the right thing to do was save the life of her mortal enemy was truly moving to me, and very powerful. I do like that she doubts herself, that she isn't prideful, that she has genuine fear that she could become possessed by the dark side and controlled by it. I feel that's probably the biggest difference between Rey and Luke's respective character arcs.

[stansimpson]

It's been a while since I've revisited ROTJ, but I suppose you're right that Rey's conflict was much more overt whereas Luke's was more subdued and internal. But I get what you're saying. Personal taste being what it is, I actually enjoy Luke's more subdued struggle, and perhaps a lot of that has to do with me just not resonating with Rey very much as a character over 3 movies.

The fact she has Palpatine's blood adds an interesting dynamic because it felt to me like she was a lot more prone to falling to the dark side.

Let's not forget that Luke is the direct spawn of Darth Vader. It casts a whole shadow over ROTJ. I felt like some subtlety was lost in ROTS on Rey's conflict with her ancestry. But I really liked that dynamic too. ROTS is doing its own thing in its own tone. I'm happy with it. Just kinda funny how I consider ROTJ superior for doing the same things in a way I like more. S'all good.

[Variety of Cells]

I think what I meant to say was that Luke didn't really express that fear of turning to the dark side on a level that was really conveyed all that well to us. I felt like the whole message of the scene of him in the cave was that he failed the test because he just had to take his weapons with him. When Yoda and Obi-wan urge him to stay and complete the training, Luke doesn't express any feelings or fears about turning to the dark side. I always felt that Luke was always a genuine good guy and there wasn't anything really tempting him to turn to the dark side until that final scene where Vader motivates him via the most primal of emotions... rage by suggesting he will turn Leia to the dark side.

With Rey... she's seen the power before her, and it genuinely frightens her. I feel like she genuinely conveyed at the beginning of the third act how frightened she was of turning to the dark side. But unlike Luke, the impetus to turn her would have been revenge, revenge for her mother and her father. The fact she has Palpatine's blood adds an interesting dynamic because it felt to me like she was a lot more prone to falling to the dark side. The fact that she could see, that she saw what she was becoming, and instead of leaving Kylo Ren to die, she realized the right thing to do was save the life of her mortal enemy was truly moving to me, and very powerful. I do like that she doubts herself, that she isn't prideful, that she has genuine fear that she could become possessed by the dark side and controlled by it. I feel that's probably the biggest difference between Rey and Luke's respective character arcs.

But can you explain the ending in a clear way?  The emperor wants Rey to kill him because somehow that will turn her to the dark side (even though she's killed a whole bunch of storm troopers and probably other stuff before). And she was going to, but then Ben comes. Then the emperor changes his mind and wants to live. And then she kills him. Sooooo why didn't she just kill the emperor but choose not to go to the dark side if that was an option all along?  He seemed to be forcing this binary decision when the reality wasn't that way at all.  At no point do I remember anyone saying why it was cool to kill him now, and how it was different than like two minutes ago when that's what he wanted.

[F-Zero]

it was nice how they handled Rey's subplot of worrying that she might turn to the dark side, something we've never seen in a Star Wars film.

I think you're forgetting Luke's entire storyarc in ROTJ, right down to encountering a his own dark self in the cave culminating to his final decision: "Never. I'll never turn to the dark side. You've failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi... like my father before me."

Oh yeah. 

[F-Zero]

I think what I meant to say was that Luke didn't really express that fear of turning to the dark side on a level that was really conveyed all that well to us. I felt like the whole message of the scene of him in the cave was that he failed the test because he just had to take his weapons with him. When Yoda and Obi-wan urge him to stay and complete the training, Luke doesn't express any feelings or fears about turning to the dark side. I always felt that Luke was always a genuine good guy and there wasn't anything really tempting him to turn to the dark side until that final scene where Vader motivates him via the most primal of emotions... rage by suggesting he will turn Leia to the dark side.

With Rey... she's seen the power before her, and it genuinely frightens her. I feel like she genuinely conveyed at the beginning of the third act how frightened she was of turning to the dark side. But unlike Luke, the impetus to turn her would have been revenge, revenge for her mother and her father. The fact she has Palpatine's blood adds an interesting dynamic because it felt to me like she was a lot more prone to falling to the dark side. The fact that she could see, that she saw what she was becoming, and instead of leaving Kylo Ren to die, she realized the right thing to do was save the life of her mortal enemy was truly moving to me, and very powerful. I do like that she doubts herself, that she isn't prideful, that she has genuine fear that she could become possessed by the dark side and controlled by it. I feel that's probably the biggest difference between Rey and Luke's respective character arcs.

But can you explain the ending in a clear way?  The emperor wants Rey to kill him because somehow that will turn her to the dark side (even though she's killed a whole bunch of storm troopers and probably other stuff before). And she was going to, but then Ben comes. Then the emperor changes his mind and wants to live. And then she kills him. Sooooo why didn't she just kill the emperor but choose not to go to the dark side if that was an option all along?  He seemed to be forcing this binary decision when the reality wasn't that way at all.  At no point do I remember anyone saying why it was cool to kill him now, and how it was different than like two minutes ago when that's what he wanted.

Well when he said "kill me I want it" that was a lie.  He was manipulating her and Kylo to bond together so the dyad of their unified force would heal him, and then he can steal the power.  I'm pretty sure.

[F-Zero]

So.  Was Anakin the chosen one and did he restore balance to the force?

[Pak-Man]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

[F-Zero]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

Ah so.  It could be the dyad of Kylo and Ren was unexpected = change in plans.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

That's what I have been thinking, a classic use of "I meant to do that".

[stansimpson]

"dyad" = In sociology, a dyad is a group of two people, the smallest possible social group.

I just learned a new word.

[Cyrusso]

But can you explain the ending in a clear way?  The emperor wants Rey to kill him because somehow that will turn her to the dark side (even though she's killed a whole bunch of storm troopers and probably other stuff before). And she was going to, but then Ben comes. Then the emperor changes his mind and wants to live. And then she kills him. Sooooo why didn't she just kill the emperor but choose not to go to the dark side if that was an option all along?  He seemed to be forcing this binary decision when the reality wasn't that way at all.  At no point do I remember anyone saying why it was cool to kill him now, and how it was different than like two minutes ago when that's what he wanted.

Not without understanding specifics about the force I cannot. Here's what I understood implicitly, Rey cannot kill Palpatine or risk him taking possession of her. However, if she has the power to reflect his power back at him, that is the only way to destroy him in a way that would be harmonious with the force... or something.

[Darth Geek]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

That's what I have been thinking, a classic use of "I meant to do that".

I think that's what it was. I would have preferred if he had actually said "Wow, your dyad allows you to HEAL people with The Force?! Okay, new plan!"

[F-Zero]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

That's what I have been thinking, a classic use of "I meant to do that".

I think that's what it was. I would have preferred if he had actually said "Wow, your dyad allows you to HEAL people with The Force?! Okay, new plan!"

Ok with a little googling I found something maybe:
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-palpatine-plan-sith-ritual/

"It's evident that Palpatine's physical form is in bad shape - he requires a new vessel, and a granddaughter powerful in the Force is just the solution. The Rise of Skywalker reveals that Palpatine's body is actually the collated mass of every past Sith in history, with each of his predecessors achieving immortality (of a sort) by living on inside a single Sith. The Rise of Skywalker begins with Palpatine luring Kylo Ren to Exegol and requesting he kill Rey, knowing that the boy will be unable to do so, and will lead her right to the Sith planet. The grand plan is to have Rey become the next in the Sith line, taking all of the spirits, Palpatine included, into her own body and sitting upon the Sith throne to rule over the galaxy with the Final Order at her command.

To achieve this, Rey must kill Palpatine in anger, which will allow the Emperor and all of his Sith friends to take residence in Rey's body via a long-held ritual passed down from master to apprentice. Doing so will give rise to Empress Palpatine, and the Sith lineage will continue beyond The Rise of Skywalker. When Rey and a redeemed Ben Solo continue to resist Palpatine's Plan A, however, Palpatine accidentally discovers that he can use the power of their Force dyad to renew his own body, negating the need to possess Rey. From this point on, the Emperor is solely concerned with killing the powerful duo of Rey and Ben Solo to prevent them interfering in his conquest."

The key word here is "accidentally discovers".  If we accept this then yes the "change in plans" theory makes more sense than the "I planned everything all along" theory.  Maybe they should have sold the surprise discovery a little better or maybe they did and I didn't notice because I was distraught over Leia.

Still, it's strange he would send Kylo to kill her iin return for control of the new empire knowing Kylo would fail, and yet tell the truth to Rey about succeeding him.  I don't believe a word that motherfucker says but there you go.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Or maybe the Emperor is just one of those guys who jumps right to "This is exactly what I planned!" whenever things start to go south.

That's what I have been thinking, a classic use of "I meant to do that".

I think that's what it was. I would have preferred if he had actually said "Wow, your dyad allows you to HEAL people with The Force?! Okay, new plan!"

Ok with a little googling I found something maybe:
https://screenrant.com/star-wars-rise-skywalker-palpatine-plan-sith-ritual/

"It's evident that Palpatine's physical form is in bad shape - he requires a new vessel, and a granddaughter powerful in the Force is just the solution. The Rise of Skywalker reveals that Palpatine's body is actually the collated mass of every past Sith in history, with each of his predecessors achieving immortality (of a sort) by living on inside a single Sith. The Rise of Skywalker begins with Palpatine luring Kylo Ren to Exegol and requesting he kill Rey, knowing that the boy will be unable to do so, and will lead her right to the Sith planet. The grand plan is to have Rey become the next in the Sith line, taking all of the spirits, Palpatine included, into her own body and sitting upon the Sith throne to rule over the galaxy with the Final Order at her command.

To achieve this, Rey must kill Palpatine in anger, which will allow the Emperor and all of his Sith friends to take residence in Rey's body via a long-held ritual passed down from master to apprentice. Doing so will give rise to Empress Palpatine, and the Sith lineage will continue beyond The Rise of Skywalker. When Rey and a redeemed Ben Solo continue to resist Palpatine's Plan A, however, Palpatine accidentally discovers that he can use the power of their Force dyad to renew his own body, negating the need to possess Rey. From this point on, the Emperor is solely concerned with killing the powerful duo of Rey and Ben Solo to prevent them interfering in his conquest."

The key word here is "accidentally discovers".  If we accept this then yes the "change in plans" theory makes more sense than the "I planned everything all along" theory.  Maybe they should have sold the surprise discovery a little better or maybe they did and I didn't notice because I was distraught over Leia.

Still, it's strange he would send Kylo to kill her iin return for control of the new empire knowing Kylo would fail, and yet tell the truth to Rey about succeeding him.  I don't believe a word that motherfucker says but there you go.

That seems like a good explanation. 

Watching it a second time there is a moment when the Emperor does look a bit surprised, it's when he gets a small jolt of energy from Rey and Ben that heals his fingers a bit, then he goes full on sucking of the power from them both.

[Pak-Man]

I just rewatched this today, and yeah, there's a definite moment of, "That fixed my hand. Screw this inhabiting Rey thing, I'm just gonna suck up some life energy and keep going for another lifetime!

But Palpatine's plans have always kind of confused me. At the end of Jedi there's the whole, "No, if you strike me down, I win. If you don't, I'm gonna keep killing your friends! Oh, and if Vader strikes me down, then he'll totally redeem himself.

One thing I didn't quite catch the first time around. When he says, "I made Snoke!" he doesn't mean, "I'm the guy who turned him to the dark side and helped him gain his position of power." He literally has another Snoke growing in a vat.