The Passion...

[Tarantulas]

Awesome! look at the size of my "area"!  It needs it's own special bag to hold it!

[Priest4hire]

People who suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy suffer a rather interesting side effect. They become religious. That is, they develop a deep interest in and desire to talk about religion. Obviously you'd wonder what happens to  an atheist. Well, there was a young man with the disorder who, when asked, said he didn't' believe in god. The student doctor who did the asking thought this was an exception. Only, when this patient was asked why he didn't believe in god he went into a very long spiel regarding multiple arguments against the existence of god. He might have been atheist but he obviously spent a great deal of time thinking about religion and god.

This has multiple implications. For one thing it suggests that indeed religion isn't going away in the near future. Then one has to wonder why we evolved to have a part of our brain that produces religious thoughts when excited. It's also interesting because it shows how complex behaviors can result from excitation of single areas of the brain. It even shows how a strong atheist position can be related to a strong religious position.

Science is a very powerful tool but, much like a flashlight, it only illuminates a limited area. Science can tell how things happen and with this knowledge we can make new things happen and understand the natural world to a great extent. But science can't tell us why things happen. At least not the 'why' that religion and philosophy delves into. It is possible that there is no why. That there no deeper reason. But to assume that simply because science can not shed light on this area means there's nothing there is an assumption. Religion is much less certain, and reliable, but it does provide answers. Believe it or not but many very intelligent people have pondered and spoken on the issues of religion, from a religious perspective, and they what they had to say is not nearly so simplistic as other side would too often have it. And vice versa. There's a world of difference between someone talking about god because they're parroting some family belief and someone seriously talking about god from an existential point of view. Then again I'm still agnostic. But then again that's probably just me being a little slow.

Evidence is a funny thing. What constitutes evidence has varied over time and cultures and even people. How we perceive evidence is heavily influenced by our world view. We all, myself included of course, accept many things with little evidence. How many here, for example, are really so adept at all fields of science that they can personally interpret the evidence. For that matter, how many times in a day do we accept things based solely on it being written somewhere or in a picture. We accept these things because they fit into our world view. Likewise, we resist other things which do not. That's just human nature. We believe we are right and that our world view is accurate. But then all ages believed that. We have reason to believe we have it right but then again so did they. Perhaps in a few hundred years we'll have the perspective to know for sure.

PS. Assuming for a moment there a god or gods, I think evolution makes a great deal of sense. It would really be a remarkable feat of engineering. A system it is flexible and self correcting. It automatically adapts to fluctuations in environment and as such doesn't require god to be hands on at all times. And thanks to the modular design god can easily tweak or add in features as required. Sure, it's very anthropomorphic. But if we humans were going to create life isn't this how we'd do it?  

PPS. I should resist but... you do realize there are two very important points science can't prove? It can't prove them because science needs to assume them in order to function. Thus since everything in science assumes these to be true it can never actually prove them. They are an objective reality and the validity of inductive logic. Actually, there are other thing we assume and can't prove, but those are the big ones. The first can't be proved because there is no way to measure, observe, or test it without accepting it. It is unfalsifiable. The second has the slight problem that you can't prove the future, or events in it, by the past. Be reasonably sure perhaps but unless you have absolute knowledge you can not prove it. I'm not a hard core skeptic but I think it's always a good idea to remember the real limits of our knowledge. Helps us keep some humility.

[Nunyerbiz]

This was an interesting discussion, even not to participate in.  Anyone want to make a real point?

Hmmm... Does God really exist?

When I think of disagreements about religion the first thing that comes to mind is rational discussion, making valid points and coming to a consensus. I'm sure we could solve the world's problems with this thread if we're given another 2000 years.

Part of the reason I blasted on the scene here was to yet again show the nature of opposition on this board.

....

Did you use that rad surfboard when you "blasted on the scene"?  Because that would be totally kickass in an extreme way.

Either way, I'm glad you have all the answers. You figured out this board, you kicked me WAY out of my comfort zone and you figured out that God doesn't exist.

[msmpls]

Some things are just worth not knowing for sure.

Science is like a blabbermouth who ruins a movie by telling you how it ends.  There are some things we don't want to know, important things!

you quoted torgo incorrectly. That was originally my quote and I don't really appreciate you using it to villanize science.

[Tarantulas]

People who suffer from temporal lobe epilepsy suffer a rather interesting side effect. They become religious. That is, they develop a deep interest in and desire to talk about religion. Obviously you'd wonder what happens to  an atheist. Well, there was a young man with the disorder who, when asked, said he didn't' believe in god. The student doctor who did the asking thought this was an exception. Only, when this patient was asked why he didn't believe in god he went into a very long spiel regarding multiple arguments against the existence of god. He might have been atheist but he obviously spent a great deal of time thinking about religion and god.

This has multiple implications. For one thing it suggests that indeed religion isn't going away in the near future. Then one has to wonder why we evolved to have a part of our brain that produces religious thoughts when excited. It's also interesting because it shows how complex behaviors can result from excitation of single areas of the brain. It even shows how a strong atheist position can be related to a strong religious position.

Science is a very powerful tool but, much like a flashlight, it only illuminates a limited area. Science can tell how things happen and with this knowledge we can make new things happen and understand the natural world to a great extent. But science can't tell us why things happen. At least not the 'why' that religion and philosophy delves into. It is possible that there is no why. That there no deeper reason. But to assume that simply because science can not shed light on this area means there's nothing there is an assumption. Religion is much less certain, and reliable, but it does provide answers. Believe it or not but many very intelligent people have pondered and spoken on the issues of religion, from a religious perspective, and they what they had to say is not nearly so simplistic as other side would too often have it. And vice versa. There's a world of difference between someone talking about god because they're parroting some family belief and someone seriously talking about god from an existential point of view. Then again I'm still agnostic. But then again that's probably just me being a little slow.

Evidence is a funny thing. What constitutes evidence has varied over time and cultures and even people. How we perceive evidence is heavily influenced by our world view. We all, myself included of course, accept many things with little evidence. How many here, for example, are really so adept at all fields of science that they can personally interpret the evidence. For that matter, how many times in a day do we accept things based solely on it being written somewhere or in a picture. We accept these things because they fit into our world view. Likewise, we resist other things which do not. That's just human nature. We believe we are right and that our world view is accurate. But then all ages believed that. We have reason to believe we have it right but then again so did they. Perhaps in a few hundred years we'll have the perspective to know for sure.

PS. Assuming for a moment there a god or gods, I think evolution makes a great deal of sense. It would really be a remarkable feat of engineering. A system it is flexible and self correcting. It automatically adapts to fluctuations in environment and as such doesn't require god to be hands on at all times. And thanks to the modular design god can easily tweak or add in features as required. Sure, it's very anthropomorphic. But if we humans were going to create life isn't this how we'd do it? 

PPS. I should resist but... you do realize there are two very important points science can't prove? It can't prove them because science needs to assume them in order to function. Thus since everything in science assumes these to be true it can never actually prove them. They are an objective reality and the validity of inductive logic. Actually, there are other thing we assume and can't prove, but those are the big ones. The first can't be proved because there is no way to measure, observe, or test it without accepting it. It is unfalsifiable. The second has the slight problem that you can't prove the future, or events in it, by the past. Be reasonably sure perhaps but unless you have absolute knowledge you can not prove it. I'm not a hard core skeptic but I think it's always a good idea to remember the real limits of our knowledge. Helps us keep some humility.

It should be said that science may not be able to explain it YET, but with time, it will.

The god argument is nothing but an oversimplification.... "Why? BECAUSE!"

[Tarantulas]

This was an interesting discussion, even not to participate in.  Anyone want to make a real point?

Hmmm... Does God really exist?

When I think of disagreements about religion the first thing that comes to mind is rational discussion, making valid points and coming to a consensus. I'm sure we could solve the world's problems with this thread if we're given another 2000 years.

Part of the reason I blasted on the scene here was to yet again show the nature of opposition on this board.

....

Did you use that rad surfboard when you "blasted on the scene"?  Because that would be totally kickass in an extreme way.

ROCKET POWERED surfboard.  And yes, it's totally bitch'n and rad and such.

Either way, I'm glad you have all the answers. You figured out this board, you kicked me WAY out of my comfort zone and you figured out that God doesn't exist.

TO THE EXTREME!

[Tarantulas]

  
Gallop DAMN YOU!

http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docId=-8092395371217203993&hl=en

[Tyrant]

Item 3: Prove God doesn't exist. Do it. Now. Don't present evidence. Evidence is not the same thing as solid proof. PROVE it. Without a shadow of a doubt. 100%.

No. It is not the unbelievers job to prove that nothing exists. The person who claims something has to prove it exists.

Nothing is a something. It's a factor in our reality. Bits of our mathmatics system is based on this. I think my challenge stands.

No. It's the same reason a jury does not declare Innocence, only Guilty or Not Guilty Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. It's the prosecution, who brings the charges,  job to show guilt, the defences job is to show the evidence doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

  I would say in fairness, since believing in nothing is a far newer concept than believing in something, that proof for nothing should be presented first. The majority of the population of the world believes in a higher power. You've got a larger group to convince than the other way around.

  Because the physical world represents the hand of God (or a God/Goddess), I challenge you to find the equivelent for nothing. An area of reality and a representing mathmatical equation that proves the existance of NOTHING. No molecules, no atoms, nothing. Not even a vaccum. Literally nothing.

Sorry, all you are doing here is latching on to the fact that I chose the word nothing in a previous sentence and then using it as though it were an object, which is completely irrelevant and not the point I was making, which I suspect you know quite well, but this is the best you can come back with. If I had said...

No. It is not the unbelievers job to prove that no gods exist. The person who claims something has to prove it exists.

You wouldn't run around saying

"No gods is a something."

Because that would be moronic, even though you tried to do that above.

Because again I am not the one making the assertion. Lets turn this around, if I was to make an absolutely ridiculous assertion, lets say..

There are twelve Gods, one for each month of the year, all of them are named Bruce.

Your inability to disprove this, in no way makes it true.

   I can prove to you a physical world.

Yes, which would be our point entirely. 

 I latched on to it because there needs to be a logical component of it for it to technically exist. You're asking me to prove a concept. I'm asking you to prove a concept. I was breaking it down (perhaps poorly. Work is a horrible place to debate this type of thing). Since the physical world is pretty much what aetheists believe in (IE: anything that can actually be studied/observed), then there has to be something in it that proves there's nothing of a spiritual nature that exists. I'm asking for a poof positive on that. Not just evidence, but something that's 100%. You can't give it to me. Anymore than I can give you 100% proof positive there's a spirit world/diety.

 Actually, this was not the best I could come up with. But my best will never be good enough because 1) I'm not training in apologetics and I'm not about to pretend I know more than I do, and 2) I stand about as good a chance of changing anyone's mind as they have changing mine.

 And I realize what your point is. The entire point of my rant/challenge here is that -absolute non-belief- is illogical because nothing can be absolutely proven either way. To go with one of the 20 arguments for God, better to believe and have everything to gain than to not believe and have everything to lose. It's unfortunate that if aetheists are right, there's no way for us to know it because all we'll be is bio-waste and some non-sentient errant energy floating around.

  I still think unbelievers need to go first. If nothing else, indulge us. If anyone can prove that God doesn't exist 100%, then the rest of us have to shut up about it forever. Think of the peace and quiet. There's your incentive.  

[msmpls]

The placebo effect is exactly what I'm talking about.  Prayer does not effect surgical outcomes any more than slipping someone a "super cure" sugar pill does.  Positive thinking has the same effect of patient outcomes as prayer, which is no say (again) none.  Recovery rates are the same in all studies.

It's the same logic and reasoning that says that talking to plants makes them grow better (regardless of whatever bullshit you saw on mythbusters)

what the fuck are you talking about?
The placebo effect states that if you tell someone it will work, it will work.
For crying out loud! You people are so fixated on coming up the victor that you're grabbing onto any "support" for your argument you can extrapolate from other posts, even if the post doesn't even support your claim! Even if it's directly opposing your position!
Why does it matter if whoever doesn't believe what you believe?
What harm does it bring to you or your loved ones? Is it your duty to save whomever from the fate that will await them once they leave this earthly plain?

Arg. This incessant bitching (yes you are bitching and insulting and name-calling) is getting really irritating. I thought the posters on this board wern't so childish. I might as well go to Phishook if I want to read petty garbage.

Did you all forget that the super awesome thing about our modern society is that you can believe whatever the hell you want (as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else being able to do the same) without consequence?

[Nunyerbiz]

Geez... was I completely misreading the tone of this thread? I wasn't taking anything all that seriously in it.... hell, I called somebody a nappy headed ho... how serious could I have been?

There is nothing wrong with some spirited discussion, even if it's ultimately pointless. Going completely apeshit over said spirited discussion is something entirely different. Plenty of other threads around here to keep you occupied if we're not meeting your standards on this one.

[Tarantulas]

The placebo effect is exactly what I'm talking about.  Prayer does not effect surgical outcomes any more than slipping someone a "super cure" sugar pill does.  Positive thinking has the same effect of patient outcomes as prayer, which is no say (again) none.  Recovery rates are the same in all studies.

It's the same logic and reasoning that says that talking to plants makes them grow better (regardless of whatever bullshit you saw on mythbusters)

what the fuck are you talking about?
The placebo effect states that if you tell someone it will work, it will work.
For crying out loud! You people are so fixated on coming up the victor that you're grabbing onto any "support" for your argument you can extrapolate from other posts, even if the post doesn't even support your claim! Even if it's directly opposing your position!
Why does it matter if whoever doesn't believe what you believe?
What harm does it bring to you or your loved ones? Is it your duty to save whomever from the fate that will await them once they leave this earthly plain?

Arg. This incessant bitching (yes you are bitching and insulting and name-calling) is getting really irritating. I thought the posters on this board wern't so childish. I might as well go to Phishook if I want to read petty garbage.

Did you all forget that the super awesome thing about our modern society is that you can believe whatever the hell you want (as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else being able to do the same) without consequence?

The problem is that christians don't want to live that way.  They want to create idiotic laws that force people to believe the way they do.  The video I posted above is just one of a thousand examples.

The placebo is very much a allegory for religion "look how great I feel, and how well I'm doing because I believe in god!".  Take out religion and you would likely feel and act the same way if you were not influenced by it's presence.

Experiment to try at home:

Use christians / backslid christians as your two test groups, and athiests as your control.

[Tarantulas]

Geez... was I completely misreading the tone of this thread? I wasn't taking anything all that seriously in it.... hell, I called somebody a nappy headed ho... how serious could I have been?

There is nothing wrong with some spirited discussion, even if it's ultimately pointless. Going completely apeshit over said spirited discussion is something entirely different. Plenty of other threads around here to keep you occupied if we're not meeting your standards on this one.

Ramen, brother.

[Tyrant]

The placebo effect is exactly what I'm talking about.  Prayer does not effect surgical outcomes any more than slipping someone a "super cure" sugar pill does.  Positive thinking has the same effect of patient outcomes as prayer, which is no say (again) none.  Recovery rates are the same in all studies.

It's the same logic and reasoning that says that talking to plants makes them grow better (regardless of whatever bullshit you saw on mythbusters)

what the fuck are you talking about?
The placebo effect states that if you tell someone it will work, it will work.
For crying out loud! You people are so fixated on coming up the victor that you're grabbing onto any "support" for your argument you can extrapolate from other posts, even if the post doesn't even support your claim! Even if it's directly opposing your position!
Why does it matter if whoever doesn't believe what you believe?
What harm does it bring to you or your loved ones? Is it your duty to save whomever from the fate that will await them once they leave this earthly plain?

Arg. This incessant bitching (yes you are bitching and insulting and name-calling) is getting really irritating. I thought the posters on this board wern't so childish. I might as well go to Phishook if I want to read petty garbage.

Did you all forget that the super awesome thing about our modern society is that you can believe whatever the hell you want (as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else being able to do the same) without consequence?

The problem is that christians don't want to live that way.  They want to create idiotic laws that force people to believe the way they do.  The video I posted above is just one of a thousand examples.

The placebo is very much a allegory for religion "look how great I feel, and how well I'm doing because I believe in god!".  Take out religion and you would likely feel and act the same way if you were not influenced by it's presence.

Experiment to try at home:

Use christians / backslid christians as your two test groups, and athiests as your control.

  Yeah. I suppose all those non-murder and non-thievery laws do kind of suck.

  I'm seeing a lot of anti-God points regarding the behavior of religious types thrown around here. I don't particularily think that the actions of a few people (proportionally) should ever be a basis on which to judge an entire population. Humans are imperfect and corrupt and, handed something that's perfect in ideal and action, will also become imperfect and corrupt. You're only going to hear about the bad ones. Given that the majority of the world believes in a spiritual world/diety/dieties, and that only a few out of the entire world's population is causing trouble, I think everyone is concentrating their attentions on the wrong people.

  In other words, don't judge the ideal, judge the person who's messing it up.

[Conor]

Did you all forget that the super awesome thing about our modern society is that you can believe whatever the hell you want (as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else being able to do the same) without consequence?

Yes, it is a super awesome thing.  The problem is that when one person thinks "'X' should be allowed to happen because it doesn't hurt anybody else and it makes no sense to prevent it" and then another person thinks "X is an affront to the Flying Spaghetti Monster and that person should be locked up because of it", the discussion has been moved to a non-level playing field and the possibility for coming to a rational conclusion has been eliminated.

[Tarantulas]

The placebo effect is exactly what I'm talking about.  Prayer does not effect surgical outcomes any more than slipping someone a "super cure" sugar pill does.  Positive thinking has the same effect of patient outcomes as prayer, which is no say (again) none.  Recovery rates are the same in all studies.

It's the same logic and reasoning that says that talking to plants makes them grow better (regardless of whatever bullshit you saw on mythbusters)

what the fuck are you talking about?
The placebo effect states that if you tell someone it will work, it will work.
For crying out loud! You people are so fixated on coming up the victor that you're grabbing onto any "support" for your argument you can extrapolate from other posts, even if the post doesn't even support your claim! Even if it's directly opposing your position!
Why does it matter if whoever doesn't believe what you believe?
What harm does it bring to you or your loved ones? Is it your duty to save whomever from the fate that will await them once they leave this earthly plain?

Arg. This incessant bitching (yes you are bitching and insulting and name-calling) is getting really irritating. I thought the posters on this board wern't so childish. I might as well go to Phishook if I want to read petty garbage.

Did you all forget that the super awesome thing about our modern society is that you can believe whatever the hell you want (as long as it doesn't impinge on someone else being able to do the same) without consequence?

The problem is that christians don't want to live that way.  They want to create idiotic laws that force people to believe the way they do.  The video I posted above is just one of a thousand examples.

The placebo is very much a allegory for religion "look how great I feel, and how well I'm doing because I believe in god!".  Take out religion and you would likely feel and act the same way if you were not influenced by it's presence.

Experiment to try at home:

Use christians / backslid christians as your two test groups, and athiests as your control.

  Yeah. I suppose all those non-murder and non-thievery laws do kind of suck.

  I'm seeing a lot of anti-God points regarding the behavior of religious types thrown around here. I don't particularily think that the actions of a few people (proportionally) should ever be a basis on which to judge an entire population. Humans are imperfect and corrupt and, handed something that's perfect in ideal and action, will also become imperfect and corrupt. You're only going to hear about the bad ones. Given that the majority of the world believes in a spiritual world/diety/dieties, and that only a few out of the entire world's population is causing trouble, I think everyone is concentrating their attentions on the wrong people.

  In other words, don't judge the ideal, judge the person who's messing it up.

No one is arguing that murder and theft are wrong.  Most of the ten commandments (which is what you are obviously referencing) are common sense.

However, the fact that you aren't stoning your unruly children, killing your neighbor for working on the sabbith, sleeping in the same room as your wife when she is having menses,  just proves that you are a bad christian.

Also, Connor just hit the 64 million dollar conclusion to this thread.