OK! As a Pagan, I MUST respond to this movie......!!!!

[RandyMistie]

I just watched this and I just... I am still kind of seething...  Um... let me collect my thoughts...

OK, ok.  Alright... here we go... nope... still need a sec... *breathe* *breathe*

OK, I'm a 42 year old man who has been a pagan since I was 16.  I have been a member of several Covens and Covensteads over the years, I have written and lectured extensively on the subject of The Old Religion.  I am even a minister in my Coven, so call me Reverend Randy.  I even had to take a course and everything, so... it's like HARD and stuff.

Yes, my religion has a prominent female Deity, a Goddess that is embodied in the Earth and all of that.  Because of that, many women, (and many women who enjoy the company of other women-- if you know what I mean), come to it in order to escape what they feel is an oppressive patriarchal Western world, fed by an oppressive patriarchal spirituality.  A lot of bookstores put books on Wicca in the "Women's Studies" section thinking it's a purely female-centric religion.

This movie seemed to continue that stereotype pretty darn good.  But there is also a GOD in my religion and a place for men, (not just the men who enjoy the company of other men, and we have enough of those, thank you very much... no more applications are being sent out for them at this time...)

Because Rifftrax fans watched this movie and it may have given them this impression I must speak on this, please indulge me.  One of the things that I focus on in my Coven is working with men and making sure the women don't try and totally take over...

See, we also have this Deity who is the Lord of the Hunt.  I mean, it's a 22,000 year old religion, we were hunter-gatherers, there were those that relied on the Goddess for plant foods and those that relied on The God for animal food.  The men usually hunted and the animals they hunted usually had antlers or horns, so they created, (notice I said they CREATED, yes man created God and then God created man) a God that was shaped like a man but had the horns of the animals they hunted.  The Horned God, Cernunnos.  This guy was awesome.  He was like, Lord of the Wild Wood, Master of Beasts, and also the consort and "stud" for the Goddess.

He was also the protector and Lawgiver (it's Ape Law!), the enforcer and all of the best parts of being a man--nobility, gallantry, chivalry, Cernunnos was the God of the Soldiers and the Militia, and he always gave His life for His family and His community, (this is the same idea that wends its way through all of the Hero myths of all human societies, that a Great Hero gives His life to save [the] His World).  Much later this was perverted into an oppressive form of patriarchy, according to some.

At any rate, these perfectly acceptable male traits are celebrated in my religion very strongly.  The Goddess and The God are equal and, for the real hard mysteries, their roles often reverse.  I won't go into that...

So, in conclusion, my religion is anachronistic, sometimes silly, but it doesn't (or at least shouldn't) hate men, and it is NOT ALL ABOUT THE WOMEN-FOLK!!!  Thank you.

Disclaimers:  My belief system only exists for we who believe it, the Goddess and God do NOT exist for you.  It is a mythology that helps us feel better about our place in the Universe.  Science is always first, and never contradicts our religion.  Our religion has no origin story and no afterlife story, so whatever science's best theories are for the nature of Nature is fine with us.  Many in my Coven have degrees in various sciences, medicine, and physics.

Our Horned One was being worshipped when a Christianized Rome conquered the British Isles a second time.  They called The Horned One The Devil, and from then on, the image stuck.  The Bible never says that Satan has horns.  The idea of our Horned God being that same Christian Satan is the origin of the idea that witches worship Satan.  That's not true.  Our Horned God was first.  SO LAY OFF!!!

THIS IS A VERY SIMPLIFIED VERSION OF ALL OF THIS IF YOU WANT TO DISPUTE THE HISTORICAL FACTS PLEASE JUST TRY TO UNDERSTAND THAT I AM SIMPLIFYING FOR THE SAKE OF BREVITY.  I DO KNOW THE MATERIAL, I HAVE DEGREES, OK??? (not that they friggin mean anything!)

[RobtheBarbarian]

Your horned god was made up in the '60s as a pretentious corruption of actual pagan religions and is every bit as silly as this movie, although in all fairness I don't confuse this movie's version of paganism with actual neopaganism and I never considered that you may all be murderous feminists. As the movie drew to a close after my first viewing, I thought to myself "I bet some jackass is going to raise hell about how it give pagans a bad name..." Lo and behold (you are not a jackass, though, your point is well made, reasonable and understandable)!

[RandyMistie]

Your horned god was made up in the '60s as a pretentious corruption of actual pagan religions and is every bit as silly as this movie, although in all fairness I don't confuse this movie's version of paganism with actual neopaganism and I never considered that you may all be murderous feminists. As the movie drew to a close after my first viewing, I thought to myself "I bet some jackass is going to raise hell about how it give pagans a bad name..." Lo and behold (you are not a jackass, though, your point is well made, reasonable and understandable)!

There are cave drawings in France of a man in horns that date back at least 15,000 years; there are stone engravings all over the British Isles of Horned Dieties that date back 5-6 thousand years.  Please, call it what you will but a man with horns was a common theme in ancient societies.  Even Asian ones.

So a Horned Hunter was NOT made up in the 60's, He was POPULARIZED in the 40's and 50's and 60's by nutty men like Gerald Gardener, Alex Sanders, and Anton Levey, but not INVENTED by them.  Please... don't try to insult me.

[RobtheBarbarian]

Lots of gods have horns, but that doesn't mean the one your religion happens to depict is directly related to one from prehistory. I'm not trying to insult you, my emotions just got the better of me and my past experiences with pretentious Wiccans drove me to blunt and crude statements (for which I apologize). I was about to edit my post into something less caustic, but realized you would have already read it by the time I changed it.

The real point is, you don't have to worry that I'll go apeshit and start crusading against neopagan religions like a concerned mother going after Marilyn Manson. One of the reasons I dislike The Wicker Man is it's outdated portrayal of paganism (although in all fairness, it is a remake of an older movie...).

[Heysie]

Hey Randy. I'm a riffaholic too.

I wouldn't worry too much about the movie. It is just a dumb ol' movie, after all!  I don't think Hollywood is really known for, er, fact-checking. I'm sure that for every topic that anyone cares deeply about, there is SOME idiotic movie that gets it all wrong.  Anyway, the SummersIsle gals are never actually referred to as Wiccans, are they?  I admit I never thought "Wiccan" one single time when I was watching it. They were clearly just some fictional invention meant to be scary (but were instead hilarious and preposterous).  I dig your religion. I know some Wiccans, one of whom has a "born again Pagan" bumper sticker, and I never thought of them once while watching this movie. Hope this helps.  Surely it helps to laugh mercilessly at the movie, right?

[RandyMistie]

Dudes!  It's not that it made my religion look BAD.  My religion looks pretty stupid all by itself, without Hollywood's help.  I mean, I would have to be in total denial to say that Paganism doesn't look pretty damn stupid.

My point was that it is not JUST FOR WOMEN.  That was my only point.  And that the Male Cult in my religion is a pretty cool one.

[RobtheBarbarian]

  Fair enough. I still say that I didn't take this film's version of paganism seriously anyway.

And I doubt anyone in their right mind did. Unfortunately there are plenty of people out of their right mind, so you're sure to get a few people asking you why you're in the uber-feminist cosplay cult if you're a guy.

[RandyMistie]

Lots of gods have horns, but that doesn't mean the one your religion happens to depict is directly related to one from prehistory. I'm not trying to insult you, my emotions just got the better of me and my past experiences with pretentious Wiccans drove me to blunt and crude statements (for which I apologize). I was about to edit my post into something less caustic, but realized you would have already read it by the time I changed it.

The real point is, you don't have to worry that I'll go apeshit and start crusading against neopagan religions like a concerned mother going after Marilyn Manson. One of the reasons I dislike The Wicker Man is it's outdated portrayal of paganism (although in all fairness, it is a remake of an older movie...).

Yes, lots of religions have Gods with horns and they are all my Horned God.  You get that?  Pan, Minotaur, Mithras, The Brhahman, Cernunnos, also, The Centaur, yes, no horns but the idea of the horns is the merging of man and beast which is a very powerful psychological archetype.  It travels throughout human civilization and is just what my religion focuses on.  The noble parts of man and animal merging like humans and Nature.  Nature feeding the human animal, giving it's life that we might live... blah blah blah... get that?

I really don't want to go into all of the mythological archetypes and how agricultural societies changed the dynamic and all that, can we just assume that I know what I am talking about?

[RobtheBarbarian]

I get that you're not being a good ambassador for your religion, what with the touchiness and condescension. Frankly you're being like every other Wiccan I've ever known: impulsive, pretentious and convinced that the world revolves around your eccentric beliefs.I don't want to get into how a religion can't be "22,000 years old" simply because it takes aspects of religions from various eras and combines them into a new on; your religion isn't as old as the oldest idea it borrows. I've already taken back my previous starements, so can you just grow up?

[RandyMistie]

I get that you're not being a good ambassador for your religion, what with the touchiness and condescension. Frankly you're being like every other Wiccan I've ever known: impulsive, pretentious and convinced that the world revolves around your eccentric beliefs.I don't want to get into how a religion can't be "22,000 years old" simply because it takes aspects of religions from various eras and combines them into a new on; your religion isn't as old as the oldest idea it borrows. I've already taken back my previous starements, so can you just grow up?

No that's not the point, sorry, I wasn't trying to be touchy.  I am just tired of defending these ideas that I only hold for myself and NO ONE ELSE!  Our posts got crossed.  And my thing with the horned God was just being tired not any kind of condesension. 

Look, you are very knowledgable, OK?  My 20 odd years of studying this stuff is nothing compared to you.  My degrees and my work in this ministry means nothing.  You rule.  I drool.  Let it go.  I'm just tired of defending myself on this forum.  I was trying to be funny.

[RobtheBarbarian]

No that's not the point, sorry, I wasn't trying to be touchy.  I am just tired of defending these ideas that I only hold for myself and NO ONE ELSE!  Our posts got crossed.  And my thing with the horned God was just being tired not any kind of condesension. 

Look, you are very knowledgable, OK?  My 20 odd years of studying this stuff is nothing compared to you.  My degrees and my work in this ministry means nothing.  You rule.  I drool.  Let it go.  I'm just tired of defending myself on this forum.  I was trying to be funny.

And I'm tired of prostrating myself before offended pagans who've taken umbrage at the fact that I don't treat them like living messiahs. You can either hold yourself to the same standards of understanding and tolerance that I am essentially forced to hold myself to by people like you or you can continue to throw a tantrum and defy all attempts to clean this up and act like adults.

[BathTub]

Yes, my religion has a prominent female Deity, a Goddess that is embodied in the Earth and all of that.  Because of that, many women, (and many women who enjoy the company of other women-- if you know what I mean), come to it in order to escape what they feel is an oppressive patriarchal Western world, fed by an oppressive patriarchal spirituality.

Say it with me....

[RobtheBarbarian]

Lesbian!

[AmandaGal]

You maybe should retake that course :-)  I agree with whoever said you sound like the typical fluffybunny wiccan kid I've met (no offense, I've known some pretty cool fluffy bunny wiccan kids).  I generally just smile and nod at them.  I've been involved in Paganism on many levels and yes, I was a fluffy bunny wiccan at one time myself.  Then I decided Wicca doesn't work for me. 

As a Pagan, it seems like what you are describing is being a WICCAN.  Calling the Wiccan religion all pagans is about like calling all Christians Catholics.  Pagan is a wide definition of a religion.  Wiccan is a specific cult like Baptist or Catholic or Lutheran.

Paganism, in it's literal definition is old.  It was the original religion.  It was man making sense of the world around him.  It literally means "From the countryside" and is the worshiping of nature and god in nature.  Naturally, that was man's first way of "knowing" whatever spiritual deity you believe in.  It is like a kid discovering things in the world.  All religion evolved from Paganism and I don't think anyone can argue with that point, which doesn't mean paganism is better it just means it's more basic....maybe us Pagans are just more slow than you guys  .  Paganism has evolved from that point too where some of us don't literally believe that the sun is carried around on a chariot like the Greeks and Romans did but some of us do (weirdos).  Some of us believe in a God like Christians.  Some of us believe that God is in everything and not a "being."  There are Pagans who believe in one God, pagans who believe in many gods, pagans who believe in NO god, pagans who believe in all female deities, pagans who believe in all male deities, etc.  I'm sure there is a Pagan sect that hates men and would castrate you in a second but I couldn't name them offhand.  I could do more research.  It seems like I recall one of the defined Pagan groups really does think men are just here for pollination and otherwise useless.  I tend to agree that you guys are pretty good at pollination but I also think you're good for changing tires and reaching things on top shelves.

I guess what I'm saying is there are lots of pagan sects and some eclectic pagans (like myself...I call myself eclectic because I'm too much of an idiot to decide what I really believe in ) who don't really fit into any sect.  There are eclectic Christians as well. 

Wicca is probably the newest and most popular Pagan sect but it's also considered the most naive by many pagans.  I don't agree with that. I think teeny bopper goths give it a bad name myself but, for me, it does seem way more optimistic than most other pagan traditions.

It's a big world of Paganism out there.  Not everyone cares about balance.   Not everyone cares about Pagans either nor should they.  My religion is private to me and while I'll talk about it if it's relevant, my lecturing Christians on Paganism is just as silly as them telling me I'm going to Hell if I don't love Jesus.  I think everyone knows movies exaggerate.  Well, no. People are stupid but Rifftrax people aren't.

When I tell people I'm a Pagan they automatically think I'm like the girls from Charmed and "Oh my god, that's real?! Can you really [insert some stupid thing]."  Yes, I really can.  Yes, Charmed is based on my life story.  Didn't you know? It's laughable more than anything.  Really? You really think I'm like Sabrina the teenage witch now? Are you really that stupid?  No, I did not go to Hogwarts.  It does not exist in the real world.  Gees.

I do talk to owls though 

[MasterChief]

am i the only one here who thinks all religions are wrong? that if there is a god, he / she / (most likely) IT is something completely incomprehensible to anything any theologian could have possibly dreamed up?