OK! As a Pagan, I MUST respond to this movie......!!!!

[RobtheBarbarian]

In response to AmandaGal, you just illustrated my awareness that by no means are all Pagans teenybop goth kids. For every pretentious, self-aborbed pagan there is a sensible one. I know enough to know that paganism is simply "any non-mainstream religion" and as such, in some form, was the first human religion. My only problem here is people who use paganism as an excuse to feel impressed with themselves, and I of course know that they are (hopefully, for your sake as much as mine) a minority.

@MasterChief:
No. I'm in your ballpark as well.

[AmandaGal]

I agree you with MasterChief but I take the other view.  I think all religions are probably RIGHT.  I'm sure none of them get it 100% right but I think everyone is right enough that God understands that we can't comprehend something as big as he is and we only see a part of the picture. We're just dumb humans.  Even Christians say he's incomprehensible and then they try to tell me that they understand him enough to know I'm wrong and they're right.  It's silly.  Then again, I am a dumb human so God is probably really pissed at me right now and I'm probably missing the boat too!

You just have to find the one that fits with you best and go with that.  If you turn out to be wrong in the end, oops.  At least you did the best you could and if that's not good enough for whatever God is out there than nothing is.

That being said I forgot to mention that I laughed so hard at Mike's review of was it "Charmed" the movie? in Megacheese it wasn't even funny.  I dunno if we'd get along in real life (he seems to be a strict Christian...he'd probably try to exorcise me like some of the strict Christians I've known) but who knows?  For some reason, I found his mocking hilarious and spot on.

[RobtheBarbarian]

I myself hope that if there is a god, he or she will understand my skepticism and choice to live my life as though there weren't divine beings breathing on the back of my neck.

[AmandaGal]

I myself hope that if there is a god, he or she will understand my skepticism and choice to live my life as though there weren't divine beings breathing on the back of my neck.

That's kind of why I like my brand of Paganism.  I've been many a thing from Catholic (where I started), to Wiccan in High School (*I* was a teeny bopper Goth), to Buddhist in college (that was a weird time, one of my profs was a Buddhist and he got me into it and got me to take all these religion courses which confused me more than ever), to Asatru, neo-druid...to finally deciding that I don't believe any of this crap and now I just call myself an eclectic kitchen witch.  I really don't do much of the pomp and circumstance that Wiccans do (it reminded me, strangely enough, of Cathoicism more than anything).  I just appreciate the deity all around me and give him props when needed.  I don't feel like anything is breathing down my neck.

Hopefully God isn't pissed but eh, he should be giving me more guidance if he is.  It's not like I haven't tried to find him.  I've looked under every rock I've seen and no Jesus or God.  I always hear about people finding Jesus, like it's a Where's Waldo game.  The little booger is hiding from me if he exists fo' sho.

[RobtheBarbarian]

I think I've gone through the same dance as you searching for a religion that reflected my beliefs and not finding one that truly did. I narrowly evaded being a teenybopper goth and was tempted to get into Asatru simply because Thor is a badass, but in the back of my head I always knew that no established religion could really match my personal beliefs (or lack of). There's always a little voice in my head telling me "come on, you know you don't believe this crap even if you agree with the general principles" and that eventually drove me to a state of skeptical nontheism, wholly unsatisfied with present cases for belief in divinity but never completely closed to the fact that I may never know.

I still carry a Mjolnir amulent simply to pay homage to Thor, demigod of monster trucks, heavy metal, spicy barbecue and beer in bottles (and thunder and lightning of course).

[RandyMistie]

Yes, all religions ARE wrong.  And they are ALL the same, more importantly.  "You pray to someone, but when it's said and done, it's really all the same... just got a different name..."  Kudos to anyone who can tell me where that quote comes from!

AmandaGal, "All Wiccans are pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan..."  another definition of Pagan is someone who worships many gods.  Many Pagan traditions are completely alien to European ideals, like Indian, or African.

Even Paul said that all of the old myths were made "real" by Christ Jesus.  The idea of the Hero giving his life for the world/community/crops what have you, going into the underworld and returning to nurish his people is Universal in every culture from Africa to Polynesia.  The three days of Christ's burial coincides with the three days of the New Moon when the moon is dark and the Gods have turned their backs on us, etc.  This goes back to Sumeria, Greece, Rome, Egypt, all the great civilizations and ultimately to the Semitic peoples who traveled through all of those lands and more.  The same story told thousands of times throughout history; sometimes it's a Goddess who goes underground for three days to retrieve The Spring, whatever... but the story is the same.

The best of Wicca simply honors all of these pagan traditions.  Every one.  We study all of the patterns and mythologies of history and we incorporate them into our rituals.  Even Bhuddism and Hunduism, (which also have alot of the same patterns, remember it's all about the Sun and the Moon and the Star cycles and that is inherent in all human societies since recorded time), all Gods are one God all Goddesses are one Goddess.

But I know that all of it is crap. OK?  It helps ME succeed in the world, it helps ME deal with the crap I have to deal with, but it shouldn't mean anything to any of you.  That's all.  Isn't that fair enough?

Allow me to repeat:  The movie did NOT OFFEND my religion, I am just sick of the idea that it is a FEMALE DOMINATED RELIGION and this was just another example of that.  And, it is something that I don't think alot of people have really talked about much.

Plus I'm 42, I've been around the block and built a good life for myself.  Maybe you should listen to me...

[RobtheBarbarian]

You're 42 but you're acting more like a spoiled teen, which raises more questions about you than it does about us. The fact that you dogmatically follow any religion, much less one that happens to be rather new and transparently pretentious is more sad than impressive. Your degrees, which are all probably in the liberal arts, don't bring me flocking to your feet either. I guess it's up to your sparkling personality, eh?

Oh...  :-",

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

Yes, all religions ARE wrong.  And they are ALL the same, more importantly.  "You pray to someone, but when it's said and done, it's really all the same... just got a different name..."  Kudos to anyone who can tell me where that quote comes from!

AmandaGal, "All Wiccans are pagan, but not all Pagans are Wiccan..."  another definition of Pagan is someone who worships many gods.  Many Pagan traditions are completely alien to European ideals, like Indian, or African.

Even Paul said that all of the old myths were made "real" by Christ Jesus.  The idea of the Hero giving his life for the world/community/crops what have you, going into the underworld and returning to nurish his people is Universal in every culture from Africa to Polynesia.  The three days of Christ's burial coincides with the three days of the New Moon when the moon is dark and the Gods have turned their backs on us, etc.  This goes back to Sumeria, Greece, Rome, Egypt, all the great civilizations and ultimately to the Semitic peoples who traveled through all of those lands and more.  The same story told thousands of times throughout history; sometimes it's a Goddess who goes underground for three days to retrieve The Spring, whatever... but the story is the same.

The best of Wicca simply honors all of these pagan traditions.  Every one.  We study all of the patterns and mythologies of history and we incorporate them into our rituals.  Even Bhuddism and Hunduism, (which also have alot of the same patterns, remember it's all about the Sun and the Moon and the Star cycles and that is inherent in all human societies since recorded time), all Gods are one God all Goddesses are one Goddess.

But I know that all of it is crap. OK?  It helps ME succeed in the world, it helps ME deal with the crap I have to deal with, but it shouldn't mean anything to any of you.  That's all.  Isn't that fair enough?

Allow me to repeat:  The movie did NOT OFFEND my religion, I am just sick of the idea that it is a FEMALE DOMINATED RELIGION and this was just another example of that.  And, it is something that I don't think alot of people have really talked about much.

Plus I'm 42, I've been around the block and built a good life for myself.  Maybe you should listen to me...

Then it wouldn't be fun for them right?  The young'uns gotta have their own opinions ya know?  Pantheism gives me a headache.

To Rob:  Might want to classify yourself as Agnostic, though that does have connotation to the concept of the "Christian God" more than overall dieties.
EDIT:  Don't mock the liberal arts degree!  Some of us are actually having it for a reason.

[RandyMistie]

You're 42 but you're acting more like a spoiled teen, which raises more questions about you than it does about us. The fact that you dogmatically follow any religion, much less one that happens to be rather new and transparently pretentious is more sad than impressive. Your degrees, which are all probably in the liberal arts, don't bring me flocking to your feet either. I guess it's up to your sparkling personality, eh?

Oh...  :-

Wait, how am I acting like a spoiled teen?  By saying my religion is wrong?

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

Wait, how am I acting like a spoiled teen?  By saying my religion is wrong?

You just HAVE to say its right, I mean... come on... its just... you know? ... the thing you have to do!

[AmandaGal]

There's always a little voice in my head telling me "come on, you know you don't believe this crap even if you agree with the general principles" and that eventually drove me to a state of skeptical nontheism, wholly unsatisfied with present cases for belief in divinity but never completely closed to the fact that I may never know.

That was me too. I'd go through the motions but want to laugh at the silliness of it.  When you want to laugh at folks, you're probably not totally into the religion.  That's the way I was in the Catholic church too though.  Even now, people come to me with "supernatural" stuff because they know I used to be into that.  The other day this teenager I know was like, "My grandfather's spirit has possessed my car and I called my coven over to exorcise him but now he's really angry and I was wondering if you could come and help us."  I almost literally laughed out loud.  Then I talked to her "Coven leader" who was obviously not playing with a full deck (I think he must have read Wicca for Dummies and therefore thought he was qualified as a spiritual guide) and I'm like, "Well, what did you do?" and we talked about what he should do, and what he did wrong.  It's like, "I don't even believe this crap.  I shouldn't really be giving counsel."  Apparently  I was pretty effective though and they were amazed at my mad Tarot skillz...but that's all a show too.  I mean, that's really not what Wicca is about anyway and if the kids think Wicca is excorcising spirits and reading Tarot and playing with Ouija boards, then they've watched one too many movies but you can't tell silly goth kids whose cars are possessed by their grandfather's demon's spirits anything these days.

If it works for you I guess.

[RobtheBarbarian]

In regards to Agnosticism, I thought about it but I don't think I really qualify. I don't so much feel indecision over the existence of a god, instead doubting it thoroughly but knowing at the same time that I may never really know for sure since the concept of god is notoriously hard to prove or disprove. On some level, the desire to be aware of divinity in the universe has left me and I'm now more concerned with happiness and success in the material plane. There's enough promise, wonder and happiness in my friends and hobbies. It'll take some serious miricles and smiting to get me thinking about religion again. Some kind of personal variant of paganism seems like the logical step from the ground level of searching for divinity, but do I really care enough to search?
EDIT: I would never mock the liberal arts.  I only wanted to doubt whether his degrees gave him any qualification to talk down to me about my skepticism.

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

In regards to Agnosticism, I thought about it but I don't think I really qualify. I don't so much feel indecision over the existence of a god, instead doubting it thoroughly but knowing at the same time that I may never really know for sure since the concept of god is notoriously hard to prove or disprove.

Slight correction, Rob, it is impossible, not just hard.  The concept of faith flies out the window if its provable, though Atheism tries its best to maintain that chirade.  There are so many 'isms, however, just make one up.

Note:  For any Atheists in the audience, sorry, but I just make fun of it.  I find it hilarious to me.

EDIT:  How dare you edit while I'm typing!

[RobtheBarbarian]

I say hard instead of impossible to avoid flak from people who disagree with me, and I catch flak from people who disagree with me.  I'm aware of the red herring that is faith, but I avoid mentioning it so I don't start minidebates.

EDIT: How dare YOU, sir!

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

I say hard instead of impossible to avoid flak from people who disagree with me, and I catch flak from people who disagree with me.  I'm aware of the red herring that is faith, but I avoid mentioning it so I don't start minidebates.

EDIT: How dare YOU, sir!

Pfft... I catch flak with my teeth.  Now THAT is how you test your manhood properly.  [Audience:  UGGH!!]  (Sorry, just the whole riffing atmosphere makes me do jokes like these.)  Again seriously, there will always be people that will disagree with you.  Thats what a magnum is used for... settling disagreements.  (Curse you atmosphere!)

As a very vocal Christian in hobbies where there are alot of anti-Christians, I start minidebates just having my presence in a thread.

EDIT:  En Garde!