Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed

[torgosPizza]

There's a difference?

[BathTub]

There's a difference?

Of course silly! Creationists claim that God created everything, and Cdesign Proponentsists claim that Someone not necessarily God (but probably our God) created it.

[Tripe]

Someone not necessarily God (but probably our God) created it.

Yep I'd be fine with ID if it's proponents would accept that it was put in motion by Ra.

[Chaos]

I always felt that the marine iguana ( http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marine_Iguana ) is one of the best examples to point people to when they don't understand the falacy in the idea of "evolving from," as if when evolution occurs the "old" species ceases to exist.

Looking at these iguanas it's quite easy to see how evolution works - a mutation occurs to the benefit of the species, the mutation breeds and prospers with its new advantageous characteristics, and a new species is born - while the old species continues quite happily in its own niche. Certainly there are scenarios where the old species can no longer adapt and so dies off, and there are estimated to be as many as a hundred thousand or even a million "failed" mutations that simply died off immediately for every single species that currently exists or that we know used to exist, but generally speaking the new species and the old species both continue onwards from the point at which the mutation branched off.

Apparently, if you can believe this, the evolutionary branch that humans are on leads back to, at some distant point, starfish. But I don't recommend you go out and try chopping your arm off to see what happens.

[Tripe]

Yep I've heard people ask "If there's evolution why are there still monkeys" and then sit there smugly as if that's the QED

[eegah]

Yeah, or "Maybe YOUR ancestors evolved from monkeys but mine didn't! huhuhhuhuh..."

That response always puzzles me. How is being created from mud (as the Bible says) more dignified than evolving from a relatively intelligent animal?

[AmandaGal]

I'm going to impugn the South in yet another thread. 

Most of you know that I used to work at a zoo and still volunteer there.  As part of my volunteer duties I regularly give tours.  There is one fellow who often helps me out who loves statistics and loves biology.  He used to constantly mention that a good portion of our DNA is shared and that is evidence of evolution.  He isn't from this country, so I guess he doesn't understand the Bible belt (or didn't).

We do a lot of church group tours.  It was always funny to see him talk to them about evolution to them.  People don't like to hear the word.  Even out of the context of "we evolved from apes."

I remember one time in particular when he was talking about it and this fellow said, rather smugly that if evolution were true, he'd still have gills because the world is mostly water and the fittest would be able to breath under water, right?  "Can these monkeys breath underwater?"   It made his kids laugh.  He went on with it'd be nice to fly, etc.  We must not be the fittest if we can't do that.  Friggin' genius.

Another story, I was once telling my little teen volunteer that raptor's talons are an "evolutionary adaptation" and he freaked out and screamed "DARWIN IS A LIAR!" and told his mom on me.  The apple didn't fall far from the tree.  But, he made a good point because I've said "They've evolved to hunt..." and made people bring up the "fact" that evolution is a theory and not a fact.  In my 6 years at the zoo, I've dropped the words "evolved" and "evolutionary" from my vocab and replaced them with warmer, fuzzier words.

[daltysmilth]

And now to continue to fan the flames, I myself believe that evolution is possible.  If I saw a chimpanzee, I would say "What up, cousin?"  (Not literally, but you get my point.  [I hope.])

But still, I have to wonder, if Michael Moore made a similar documentary in support of evolution, without checking his facts and making up facts if the real facts didn't fit his thesis, would the same people be outraged?  Especially if he made some tired joke comparing President Bush to a monkey?  I agree with Tyrant that the problem with both sides of the issue is that the supporters of each side (even the ones who are more familiar with how evolution works than the average person) do tend to take a black and white, either/or position.  As in "If evolution is real, then God does not exist" or "if God is real, than evolution must not exist."  I don't see why it has to be that way.  If science can explain the what, the where, the when, and the how, maybe religion can explain the who and the why.

[Rude]

Did Christopher Hitchens make the final cut?

Yeah... Hitchens appeared briefly in the film.

-Rude

[SaucyRossy]

Especially if he made some tired joke comparing President Bush to a monkey?

How is that joke tired? Never gets old to me.

[BathTub]

Again, daltysmith, this is not about god! As much as people keep trying to frame it as some religious debate, it's not. It's a Science VS Non-Science debate falsely dressed up in faux 'Freedom of Speech' issue.

"We have the right to believe what we want!", fine no one is disagreeing with that, but that doesn't make it science, and that's what this is about.

They interviewed Christian Evolutionary Scientists for the film. They did. Where are they? They decided not to use them because they would confuse viewers about the faux 'Darwinism equals Atheism equals Hitler' issue that they've made up. These are not my words, you can listen to the producer say them. Scientific American did a quite an Expelled round up. Including a discussion with the producer Paul Mathis.

Seriously people if you don't do any other research on this film just listen to the podcast with Mathis, it's really quite telling.

If people would like to hear a bit more after that I would recommend this episode of Skepticality with 2 interviews with people in the film Dawkins and Michael Shermer (he actual also wrote one of the Sciam reviews) about their experiences with the Expelled Crews.

[BathTub]

But still, I have to wonder, if Michael Moore made a similar documentary in support of evolution, without checking his facts and making up facts if the real facts didn't fit his thesis, would the same people be outraged?

I guarantee we wouldn't have to! If someone did a film like that the same people who support Expelled would be all over it pointing out the falsities in the film, and then use them in an attempt to disprove the science.

[Tripe]

Yeah, or "Maybe YOUR ancestors evolved from monkeys but mine didn't! huhuhhuhuh..."

That response always puzzles me. How is being created from mud (as the Bible says) more dignified than evolving from a relatively intelligent animal?

See and that's a very good point because the criticism creationists throw around is that the scientific explanation is all about randomness. However, in the bible the only precise act of creation god does is the little rib surgery procedure he performs on Adam. the rest is all on the level of clicking his fingers or wriggling his nose.

Oh and if Moore did make a film about evolution it would be like his others: A flawed film about a valid subject. He makes very flawed films but at heart there is some validity to the subject matter, that is there is some potential for a useful discussion. The same cannot be said about ID, which is predicated on ignorance (often willful) of even the most basic scientific concepts and method and  even outright lying to serve a theistic agenda.

Ultimately ID says "duuude this is sooo coool, somebody must have made it" well that's all well and good but it's useless for the purposes of doing anything except sitting back and saying  "duuude this is sooo coool, somebody must have made it".

Oh and part of Steins argument seems to be (and correct me if I'm wrong here) that that is is wrong or unjust that people who advocate ID have been denied employment in scientific institutions because of it.

I can't see where a fiscal conservative can even argue this, you're saying people who teach something demonstrably false should be given a salary to teach it? It boggles the mind.

[bettertomorrowamy]

On the radio yesterday they described this movie as, "Poking holes in the theory of evolution."

This sounds like a parody of An Inconvenient Truth, but it isn't is it?  They are serious?

[Tripe]

Well I hope it's just a refined joke but I don't think so.