Why Darth Vader was almost the greatest villain of all time

[Fortis]

I'm posting here just as a note that I refuse to join this discussion.

It's more a reminder to myself than anything, in case i suddenly have a relapse.

::uses force:: you will join discussion.

Oh don't go throwing money in my face now. When's the last time you heard a group of adults talk about how great Spider-Man 2 was. The villain of that movie was just a guy doing an experiment who, because he sucked, was going to fail and blow-up New York. Wow, great story.

Actually that movie widely held as the greatest comic book movie ever made. And to this day remains one of my favorite movies. Not for its visual effects and nerdyness, but for a story that transcends a comic book hero and goes into real life. This movie actually helps my theory that the best villains are the misunderstood, tragic characters.

The point was that the ideal Star Wars prequels would essentially be novels devoid of anything that made it a popular movie franchise. So all the nerds would love them, and that's mainly because Star Wars fans have grown up reading Star Wars novels, and real, better sci-fi that Star Wars introduced them to. But the movies would probably not be much more successful with the general public, or beloved, or quotable, or be a big draw when they finally got shown on network TV. I mean how much money did the prequels make? Tons. But how many of those people WISH they hadn't bought tickets? Nothing could ever live up to the original Star Wars.

You are missing the point, the name sells not the genre. The things that make the movie quotable and memorable are the characters and story, not the sci-fi nerdiness. By your reasoning here, the original trilogy shouldn't be as loved as much as it is, and should be ignored as much as the prequels will be. Your argument doesn't make sense in accordance to mine, its just jibberish. But I do agree wiht you that the ideal Star Wars prequels would be novels. The novels are actually pretty good.

There's a Star Wars prequel trilogy that would appease fans, and there's a Star Wars prequel trilogy that would be a mainstream hit with everybody. And I don't think anybody has come close to the second one. Probably not even the first one. George Lucas for all his genius couldn't come up with kid friendly material that didn't annoy people. Who could do better? Certainly not fan fiction writers. And Star Wars needs to appeal to all ages or else it isn't Star Wars. The prequels fail because they're half not Star Wars, and the kiddie crap was just trivial. Sort of like giving your kid a PSP while you watch the movie.

Now this argument is just you arguing for the sake of arguing. Nothing will ever be a mainstream hit, or appease fans. People are going to be pissed off. Lord of the Rings appeased fans, and was a mainstream hit. But there are still those in the mainstream that don't like it, and there are still fans that refuse to watch them. George Lucas, is not a good writer, he is a good storyteller, there is a difference. Yes the prequels are filled with crap that appeal to kids, and is annoying for adults. But the Star Wars original trilogy is full of stuff that delighted me when I was a kid, that i still think is great as an adult. There is a way to do it, and George Lucas already did do it! But for some reason he just didn't get these movies right, I don't know if Jar Jar Binks held his brain hostage or what, but again, you have an empty argument.

And yes, I think me as a fan writer, can do better. I could be wrong, but we will never know, because I never intend going beyond my analyzation of the characters.

Wait, why are we even arguing? this is a pointless argument that has been made countless times by fans across the internet, and has yet to be resolved. I'm not arguing with somebody who makes pointless and empty arguments.

[bratpop]

The things that make the movie quotable and memorable are the characters and story, not the sci-fi nerdiness.

No, it's not that, it's just "fun" that makes movies fun. There's fun sci-fi (Flash Gordon) and there's nerdy sci-fi (new Battlestar Galactica). The seriousness of the ideal prequels would make them less fun than they already are. Part of the problem with the existing prequels is that their dark nature is ruined by attempts at "fun" that just don't fit. What fans want of Star Wars now is not a popcorn movie like the original was. And I mean the first movie, which was not bogged down by all the force and family themes of Empire and Jedi.

Lord of the Rings for all its moneymakeyness is still extremely nerdy and not as fun, embraced, or culturally pervasive as Star Wars. As for whether it's possible to make another movie with the same basic effect as Star Wars, I say yes because it was essentially repeating what The Wizard of Oz did. That's a 40 year gap. I guess to an extent, Harry Potter did some of this magic, though the series as a whole becomes harder and harder to embrace just due to sheer length. Also, same problem. The stories get darker and darker.

Nothing will ever be a mainstream hit, or appease fans.

Well that's just so pessimistic, why bother speculating about a perfect Star Wars at all? Okay, I agree. Star Wars will always suck... to somebody.

George Lucas, is not a good writer, he is a good storyteller, there is a difference.

Right, that's what I was saying before. The story is fine, but it's told like a serious documentary, warts and all. The politics try to be too realistic, which is along the lines of fan thinking, but it's like Dune meets E.T. Way too serious and way too schmaltzy at the same time, and also full of bad acting.

I'm not sure what about my arguments confuses you.

[anais.jude]

The things that make the movie quotable and memorable are the characters and story, not the sci-fi nerdiness.

No, it's not that, it's just "fun" that makes movies fun. There's fun sci-fi (Flash Gordon) and there's nerdy sci-fi (new Battlestar Galactica). The seriousness of the ideal prequels would make them less fun than they already are. Part of the problem with the existing prequels is that their dark nature is ruined by attempts at "fun" that just don't fit. What fans want of Star Wars now is not a popcorn movie like the original was. And I mean the first movie, which was not bogged down by all the force and family themes of Empire and Jedi.

I think the prequels would have been better with a second draft because of character developmnent and chessy lines. I mean, even with a second draft there is still room for Jar Jar and other fun things.
I mean, i like the IDEA that Episoe 2 showed Anakin and Padme falling in love, but it was pretty darn unbeleivable. If Anakin had been older in the first movie and there had already been some sexual tension established, then it would have been easier to swallow, even with the stupid "sand" discussion.
I like the water.

[Fortis]

The things that make the movie quotable and memorable are the characters and story, not the sci-fi nerdiness.

No, it's not that, it's just "fun" that makes movies fun. There's fun sci-fi (Flash Gordon) and there's nerdy sci-fi (new Battlestar Galactica). The seriousness of the ideal prequels would make them less fun than they already are. Part of the problem with the existing prequels is that their dark nature is ruined by attempts at "fun" that just don't fit. What fans want of Star Wars now is not a popcorn movie like the original was. And I mean the first movie, which was not bogged down by all the force and family themes of Empire and Jedi.

Yes there is fun sci fi and nerdy sci fi, but does anybody really enjoy nerdy scifi except nerds? Popcorn movies can be a refreshing change from serious movies but I wasn't expecting a popcorn movie, especially with the serious nature of Anakin's downfall. But I agree that the attempts at comic relief were complete and utter failures to the likes of which makes me cringe. So I agree with you on this.

Lord of the Rings for all its moneymakeyness is still extremely nerdy and not as fun, embraced, or culturally pervasive as Star Wars. As for whether it's possible to make another movie with the same basic effect as Star Wars, I say yes because it was essentially repeating what The Wizard of Oz did. That's a 40 year gap. I guess to an extent, Harry Potter did some of this magic, though the series as a whole becomes harder and harder to embrace just due to sheer length. Also, same problem. The stories get darker and darker.

No you are right, Lord of the rings isn't as culturally pervasive as Star Wars, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. No I don't think that they can make another movie that will have such an affect on the general public as Star Wars, at the time of its first release, was an entirely new genre, an entire new way of making movies. So again, I agree with you.

George Lucas, is not a good writer, he is a good storyteller, there is a difference.

Right, that's what I was saying before. The story is fine, but it's told like a serious documentary, warts and all. The politics try to be too realistic, which is along the lines of fan thinking, but it's like Dune meets E.T. Way too serious and way too schmaltzy at the same time, and also full of bad acting.

I'm not sure what about my arguments confuses you.
[/quote]

Okay, I agree with you once again on this, he does try to make these movies to real, which should never be done, like I said before, people don't watch movies, or read books, that are about real life. That is boring, people want excitement, stress, and to feel heroic. 

[dalem]

To me it's always been pretty obvious that Lucas made a deliberate decision to "aim lower" with the series ever since ESB.  SW was a lark.  ESB took a lot of the elements and people from the lark, slapped them in the face, and made them grow up a little.  If ROTJ had conitnued down that road we'd've gotten some of the stuff all of us fans (at least, me & my friends who have too much time to drink and smoke cigars talking about SW ) have whined about for years - Han dying for the Rebellion he still didn't really believe in, Vader throwing Palpy over the railing, then turning to Luke and saying "Together, we can transform the Dark Side and make it more than it ever could be before - nothing can stop us now, my son"), etc.

More Shakespearean, less Milkshakean.

But instead we got another Death Star, teddy bears, and bad FX.  Yay fun.  But that made it no surprise (if no more palatable) when the prequels were more of the same with good lighting.

In my opinion, and I think I'm just restating what a lot of folks here have already said, the prequels (at least PM) were an attempt to mix high drama and action with kiddie marketing, and I think failed to really be great at either.  The FX are fun though, and l don't seem to get tired of whoosh-humming lightsabers.

-dale

[Fortis]

Vader throwing Palpy over the railing, then turning to Luke and saying "Together, we can transform the Dark Side and make it more than it ever could be before - nothing can stop us now, my son"), etc.

It was Darth Vader's destiny to destroy the sith, so in the process of killing the emperor he had to either come back to the right side, or die. So I don't think with the way fate is displayed in these movies that he would have said that to Luke. I see your point though.

In my opinion, and I think I'm just restating what a lot of folks here have already said, the prequels (at least PM) were an attempt to mix high drama and action with kiddie marketing, and I think failed to really be great at either.  The FX are fun though, and l don't seem to get tired of whoosh-humming lightsabers.

-dale

'nuff said. The only thing I watch in the phantom menace without the rifftrax is the end battle with darth maul. Awesome lightsaber fight. I don't even watch attack of the clones without the rifftrax anymore, and revenge of the sith is okay enough to watch all the way through without a rifftrax.

The original series to me is pretty much holy scripture. Despite their obvious weaknesses, these were the movies that made me the nerd I am today.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

No you are right, Lord of the rings isn't as culturally pervasive as Star Wars, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. No I don't think that they can make another movie that will have such an affect on the general public as Star Wars, at the time of its first release, was an entirely new genre, an entire new way of making movies. So again, I agree with you.

Sorry to butt in here but Star Wars was not entirely original, just ask Lucas.  I just watched the non special edition version of the first movie earlier tonight for the first time in years and as silly as some of it is, it's still immensely entertaining.  The first film is filled with the kind of stuff that Lucas loved seeing in the movies as a kid.  Swordfights, a hero rescuing a princess, a good wizard versus a bad wizard...  None of these were new ideas.  Lucas just set it in 'a galaxy far, far away' and did it damn well.  Notice, by the way, the complete lack of lengthy discussions about trade embargoes in the first movie.  Hmm.

I saw Star Wars in the theaters as a kid, way back in 1977 and the cultural impact it had cannot be overstated.  Without a doubt, it spawned an entire generation of nerds.  I can't think of another movie that I saw in my childhood that compells me to post on internet discussion forums thirty years later.  Well,  maybe 'Herbie Goes Bananas'.

By the way, I can't WAIT to see the guys riff it.  There is so much to work with.

Something I noticed, the prequels do not mesh well with the original movies, not nearly as well as Lucas claimed they would.  For instance, would Obi-Wan REALLY be so quick to teach Luke the force?  Teaching Anakin didn't work out too well for him.  He's not at all concerned that this kid might turn on him in a fit of psychotic rage when he finds that ol' Obi cut off his dad's legs and left him for dead on a planet of smoking lava?  Also when Obi-Wan and Darth have their big confrontation, it's a bit anti climatic isn't it?  Considering all the history between the two, they're pretty casual with each other when they meet again on the Death Star.
   
And to say something relavant to the thread, I agree with your original post, Fortis.   

[MSTJedi]

The original series to me is pretty much holy scripture. Despite their obvious weaknesses, these were the movies that made me the nerd I am today.

QFT. Well-said.

I third that. I wouldn't be the sarcastic sci-fi (or "sf" if you want to get technical) nerd that I am without the original SW trilogy. That said, I accept the facts and time line from the sequels, but the most of the actual scenes and whatnot I try not to think about ("I hate sand!").

[Fortis]

No you are right, Lord of the rings isn't as culturally pervasive as Star Wars, but that doesn't mean it wasn't. No I don't think that they can make another movie that will have such an affect on the general public as Star Wars, at the time of its first release, was an entirely new genre, an entire new way of making movies. So again, I agree with you.

Sorry to butt in here but Star Wars was not entirely original, just ask Lucas.  I just watched the non special edition version of the first movie earlier tonight for the first time in years and as silly as some of it is, it's still immensely entertaining.  The first film is filled with the kind of stuff that Lucas loved seeing in the movies as a kid.  Swordfights, a hero rescuing a princess, a good wizard versus a bad wizard...  None of these were new ideas.  Lucas just set it in 'a galaxy far, far away' and did it damn well.  Notice, by the way, the complete lack of lengthy discussions about trade embargoes in the first movie.  Hmm.

Yeah, George Lucas basically stole everything. But it still was an entire new genre of movies when it came out. If you watch star wars, george lucas basically took every great aspect of every amazing story that has great heroes, and took those and made it into one epic story. So you are totally right. He stole everything, but he made it into something great.

[bratpop]

Ugh, I hate the Darth Maul fight. It's so pointless and fake looking. A guy shows up and challenges the Jedi to a fight for no reason so they fight him for no reason with nothing at stake instead of protecting the queen,  in the very classical and Italian looking planet's "big fake CG sci-fi equipment room" which in a lesser movie would have been shot at an abandoned factory or power plant. I don't care how cool looking Darth Maul was, he was a non character in a plotless movie and his only redemptive scene is gratuitous and superflous. They basically took Darth Vader, made him look like the Devil, and then turned him into a Bond movie henchman.

[Fortis]

Ugh, I hate the Darth Maul fight. It's so pointless and fake looking. A guy shows up and challenges the Jedi to a fight for no reason so they fight him for no reason with nothing at stake instead of protecting the queen,  in the very classical and Italian looking planet's "big fake CG sci-fi equipment room" which in a lesser movie would have been shot at an abandoned factory or power plant. I don't care how cool looking Darth Maul was, he was a non character in a plotless movie and his only redemptive scene is gratuitous and superflous. They basically took Darth Vader, made him look like the Devil, and then turned him into a Bond movie henchman.

haha, you hit that nail on the head. It makes me laugh that he is such a nonentity used only for the last fight. I still watch it solely for Ray Parks awesome abilities.

What are those stupid force field things used for anyways? And that bottomless pitt? You are totally right about the stupidity 

[bratpop]

At least the carbon freezing chamber actually had a purpose.

[Fortis]

At least the carbon freezing chamber actually had a purpose.

Heh, I just finished watching Empire Strikes Back about an hour ago. It is by far the best star wars movie.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Ugh, I hate the Darth Maul fight. It's so pointless and fake looking. A guy shows up and challenges the Jedi to a fight for no reason so they fight him for no reason with nothing at stake instead of protecting the queen,  in the very classical and Italian looking planet's "big fake CG sci-fi equipment room" which in a lesser movie would have been shot at an abandoned factory or power plant. I don't care how cool looking Darth Maul was, he was a non character in a plotless movie and his only redemptive scene is gratuitous and superflous. They basically took Darth Vader, made him look like the Devil, and then turned him into a Bond movie henchman.

haha, you hit that nail on the head. It makes me laugh that he is such a nonentity used only for the last fight. I still watch it solely for Ray Parks awesome abilities.

What are those stupid force field things used for anyways? And that bottomless pitt? You are totally right about the stupidity 

I love how they hide out on Tatooine in the Queen's GIANT CHROME PLATED SPACESHIP just so Lucas can show off the CGI.  Talk about pointless.

[Fortis]

Ugh, I hate the Darth Maul fight. It's so pointless and fake looking. A guy shows up and challenges the Jedi to a fight for no reason so they fight him for no reason with nothing at stake instead of protecting the queen,  in the very classical and Italian looking planet's "big fake CG sci-fi equipment room" which in a lesser movie would have been shot at an abandoned factory or power plant. I don't care how cool looking Darth Maul was, he was a non character in a plotless movie and his only redemptive scene is gratuitous and superflous. They basically took Darth Vader, made him look like the Devil, and then turned him into a Bond movie henchman.

haha, you hit that nail on the head. It makes me laugh that he is such a nonentity used only for the last fight. I still watch it solely for Ray Parks awesome abilities.

What are those stupid force field things used for anyways? And that bottomless pitt? You are totally right about the stupidity 

I love how they hide out on Tatooine in the Queen's GIANT CHROME PLATED SPACESHIP just so Lucas can show off the CGI.  Talk about pointless.

yeah, lets park on the outskirts, we don't want to attract attention. Anybody looking in that direction would be blinded by the immense shine from their two suns on that mirror of a ship. hehe