Why Darth Vader was almost the greatest villain of all time

[Fortis]

Any writer will tell you that the greatest villains, are the ones that can come back. By that I mean, that the villain is confronted with a moral issue, and chooses to do the right thing. This adds complexity and a realism to the character.

Sure some people think it is cool to have a villain that kills for no reason, and is just explicitly evil. Of course this can work, if the villain is written correctly. But often stories fail to achieve resonence with a villain that is not seen, or has no character arc. Villains are evil for a reason!

NOw wat was great about Darth Vader, was he was this entity that was unlike anybody else. In Star Wars Episode IV, or the first movie whichever you like...You see Darth Vader as a ruthless person extremelly powerful person, he even strikes fear in those that are in the Empire with him.

Obi-Wan and Yoda always told us how evil he was, Obi-Wan told us that he even killed Luke's Dad!(from a certain point of view) And by watching the movies we can see that. He is ruthless, evil, heartless, "more machine, than man, twisted and evil."

But then in Empire Strikes Back, we find out that Darth Vader, may very well be Luke's Dad. This was huge, I remember sitting in the movie theater watching this movie for the first time and after the famous line, "No Luke, I, am your father," I felt like my head exploded, I did not see this coming. It was that revelation that made me love Star Wars more than anything as a kid. After this moment despite what anybody said, Luke was sure that there was good in him, which made Darth Vader a good villain. He wasn't all bad, supposedly.

And then in Return of the Jedi, as we all know, the Emporer gave Darth Vader a moral dilemma, to watch as he kills his son, the last of the Jedi, the only link he has to a family he lost when his wife died as a result of him going to the dark side? He felt the love of a father from a son, and ultimately did what he was supposed to do. Destroy the sith and bring balance to the force. At the end of the Classic Trilogy, Darth Vader was the single coolest villain, ever.


And so, from a writers point of view, I will tell you about why Darth Vader, who was the coolest villain, almost became even cooler, but because of bad writing, is not as cool as he once was.

This is how Anakin Skywalker's character should have been. Being a slave should have hardened him as a child. None of this "Yippee, I have a child like innocence that will soon be ravaged by my dark thoughts about a woman years older than me and out of my league!" On a side note, the Anakin depicted in episode 1, would never have become the Anakin in episode III. But that is beside the point.

Anyways, when Anakin was brought to be a Jedi, they should have shown how powerful he really was, none of this podracing crap. Maybe show him finding friends in danger, and then accidentally using the force to make...I don't know, 100 Tusken Raider's heads explode. But they should have really shown how powerful he was compared to all the other Jedi. They never really show that, even the lightsaber fight where he uses two light sabers was so short lived (if they kept that going, it could have rivaled any fight we had seen thus far).

Second thing George should have done, is make Anakin a really compassionate, almost self righteous Jedi, sometimes questioning the methods of the other Jedi for their brutality, or impatience. He should have been, this posterboy for the Jedi, loved by all, a great hero. Not a whiny boy who thinks he is in love with a girl he can't stand to be with.

But his vice, should be this inner anger he hides from everybody. Sometimes you can see it when he is fighting or when he doesn't agree with someone, it is there, but he is always pleasant, trying hard to keep it in check. But after the death of his Mother, he should be kind of...over protective if you will.

After having a dream that Padme will die, he will become so worried and distraught, he will make mistakes, he won't be the perfect Jedi anymore. He will fail at things, and then the Jedi Council will question his abilities because he gets so distracted from these vivid dreams of his wife dying. He will become so frustrated, and so desperate to resolve this that he will resort to learning about, darker ways of the force.

With all of these changes in his character, it will make it all the more tragic when he makes the choice to go to the dark side in hopes of saving Padme. Even after he has made that choice, he will still, not fully be willing to be the apprentice of the Emperor, he keeps questioning him, when are we going to save Padme? And the Emperor will give him ultimatums, well if you go and take care of these seperatists, then we will figure it out. But I'm too busy to figure it out with you, when the galaxy is at war...That sort of thing.

After Anakin kills Mace Windu, and the Seperatists, and tries to kill Obi-Wan when he thinks that Obi-Wan is trying to stop him from saving Padme, he is already in too deep. The emperor will then tell him of the death of his wife. And that is when, Darth Vader will become the most tragic villain ever. Hearing Darth Vader yell, "Nooooooo!" at the end of episode III, will no longer be kind of funny, but heartwrenching. These changes will make it all the more believable when he kills the emperor to save his son, to kill and redeem himself to a family he thought he lost, and will add an air of mystery, and dispair to his ruthlessness shown in the first movie of the classic trilogy.


Wow, that was long, for those who have stuck with me long enough to read that, congratulations, you have succeeded in life. I don't know if people will agree with me or not, but I think that if George Lucas had written Anakin's character like what I think it should be, it would have been so much better for Darth Vader as a character, instead of burdening him with the supposed past of a whiny teenage boy. And it would have helped with continuity, everybody talked in the original trilogy about how Anakin was a great man, and a great friend and a very powerful Jedi and how they never understood why he went to the dark side. Instead of that, all I see is a whiny little kid who doesn't even rival the lowliest of Jedi.

So that is my opinion. I didn't mean to be so long winded, and hopefully this is easy enough to understand.

[RVR II]

I Still sense his 'Disturbance' in the Force..

[anais.jude]

I think that would have made a great movie. Anakin should have been met when he was older, and he should have gone over the the dark side at the end of the second movie, after marrying padme of course

[Fortis]

I think that would have made a great movie. Anakin should have been met when he was older, and he should have gone over the the dark side at the end of the second movie, after marrying padme of course

Yes! Its good to finally express this, I have gotten pretty in depth in writing a character for a novel I'm writing, and writing him made me realize, that he is exactly the way Anakin should have been. This character is actually my Fortis character (hence my screenname).

But after this realization, it made me hate the prequels. Which, I thought were slightly redeemable, the end battle in episodes I, II, and Revenge of the Sith wasn't that bad. But I literally couldn't watch them after this because it pained me to think about what Anakin could have been!

I'm really glad I can discuss this with intelligent people. All my friends are like, no I think they should remake the original's so they are more action pact then they are now. I'm like, "are you an idiot?"

[Tripe]

All good points and were Lucas a writer he may have done all of that but as we have seen he's more of an "ideas man" and that seem dried up long since.

But yes I think many of us could have put together a better prequel trilogy taking the hints from the original trilogy than Lucas did.

[bettertomorrowamy]

I recently watched "Hearts of Darkness", a documentary about the making of "Apocalypse Now".  George Lucas had something to do with the original adaptation of the book "Heart of Darkness" into the early screenplay of "Apocalypse Now".  Lucas HAD original thoughts once, and was an artist.  It's sad that he became such a hack, and destroying one of his greatest achievements with these terrible sequels is even worse. 

I think Lucas is his own greatest villain. 

[BBQ Platypus]

Wow.  I've gotta give you credit for this one - I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to write an outline for a prequel trilogy that sounded good.  It makes me hate the prequels that much more.

[Fortis]

Wow.  I've gotta give you credit for this one - I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to write an outline for a prequel trilogy that sounded good.  It makes me hate the prequels that much more.

well, I am writing four novels that will probably be over 300,000 words when they are done (which is not a good thing, publishers rarely publish more than 200,000). I'm quite proud of them.

I actually toyed around with writing my own version of Star Wars using a different setting, different characters (less annoying), and better story telling. Sorta like Eragon, but better. But that would be too huge of an undertaking while I'm still to emotionally evolved with the novels I'm writing right now.

And yes, it does make me hate the prequels too, which I didn't think were that bad. I mean there are much worse movies out there. At least they are somewhat imaginative. If muddled, and Cliche.

[anais.jude]

Wow.  I've gotta give you credit for this one - I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to write an outline for a prequel trilogy that sounded good.  It makes me hate the prequels that much more.

well, I am writing four novels that will probably be over 300,000 words when they are done (which is not a good thing, publishers rarely publish more than 200,000). I'm quite proud of them.

I actually toyed around with writing my own version of Star Wars using a different setting, different characters (less annoying), and better story telling. Sorta like Eragon, but better. But that would be too huge of an undertaking while I'm still to emotionally evolved with the novels I'm writing right now.

And yes, it does make me hate the prequels too, which I didn't think were that bad. I mean there are much worse movies out there. At least they are somewhat imaginative. If muddled, and Cliche.

Are they fantasy novels or romances? Because those books are always very damn long!

[Fortis]

Wow.  I've gotta give you credit for this one - I didn't think it was POSSIBLE to write an outline for a prequel trilogy that sounded good.  It makes me hate the prequels that much more.

well, I am writing four novels that will probably be over 300,000 words when they are done (which is not a good thing, publishers rarely publish more than 200,000). I'm quite proud of them.

I actually toyed around with writing my own version of Star Wars using a different setting, different characters (less annoying), and better story telling. Sorta like Eragon, but better. But that would be too huge of an undertaking while I'm still to emotionally evolved with the novels I'm writing right now.

And yes, it does make me hate the prequels too, which I didn't think were that bad. I mean there are much worse movies out there. At least they are somewhat imaginative. If muddled, and Cliche.

Are they fantasy novels or romances? Because those books are always very damn long!

Two are fantasy novels, one is a thriller, and another is just a fan story based off of Metroid, but it is a full length novel, kinda like the Halo books.

[bratpop]

The "why" of Darth Vader is unnecesary. He was already great in the first movie before he had any character or story, because there were hardly any other, memorable movie villains that weren't goofy. In fact a lot of people hate that he turned out to be a decrepid old eggman, so that didn't make him any greater.

As for the prequels, no offense, but it's easy to point out the flaws in someone else's work. Especially when the flaws are so blatantly obvious that even six-year-olds go, "What a load of crap!" It would be another thing if someone came up with a better prequel trilogy before knowing what Lucas would do. There might be some material like that floating around in obscure nerd forums, but it's still just a matter of opinion and could have sucked just as much as actual movies.

The prequels blow because the cast was too young. They're like adult-themed kids movies. And what the hell is that? Beats me. Some genre that must be ahead of its time and we just don't "get" it yet. Darth Vader is still the greatest villain of all time. Darth Vader is the guy in black who chokes people to death for no reason. He's not some whiny kid who had a tiff with his boyfriend, no matter what some wrinkly old overactor decided to knight him as.

Besides, I think the substance is in the story. The prequels are not the story, they're the documentary of the story filmed in handheld, where you realize the epic and tragic quality of the tale is overshadowed by how much of a dick your dad really was. Stories work because they leave out ugly details like whining, riding potato monsters to impress your girlfriend, and going to the bathroom after a bad six pack of Jawa juice. The Ken Burns version would still work, it's just impossible to get the bad jokes and cries of "YIPPEE!" out of your head after you've heard them.

Try describing the prequels to someone who hasn't seen them, without embellishing them with opinion, and see if they can guess how bad the movies really are. I doubt they can. So it's not the story so much as the annoying humanistic details that ruin the mythological fairy tale quality.

Could a second draft have made it all less disappointing? Sure, but try selling that to a studio. "See, it's got no parts that kids will enjoy!" Ah, a movie purely for nerds. That always works.

[MSTJedi]

The "why" of Darth Vader is unnecesary. He was already great in the first movie before he had any character or story, because there were hardly any other, memorable movie villains that weren't goofy. In fact a lot of people hate that he turned out to be a decrepid old eggman, so that didn't make him any greater.

As for the prequels, no offense, but it's easy to point out the flaws in someone else's work. Especially when the flaws are so blatantly obvious that even six-year-olds go, "What a load of crap!" It would be another thing if someone came up with a better prequel trilogy before knowing what Lucas would do. There might be some material like that floating around in obscure nerd forums, but it's still just a matter of opinion and could have sucked just as much as actual movies.

The prequels blow because the cast was too young. They're like adult-themed kids movies. And what the hell is that? Beats me. Some genre that must be ahead of its time and we just don't "get" it yet. Darth Vader is still the greatest villain of all time. Darth Vader is the guy in black who chokes people to death for no reason. He's not some whiny kid who had a tiff with his boyfriend, no matter what some wrinkly old overactor decided to knight him as.

Besides, I think the substance is in the story. The prequels are not the story, they're the documentary of the story filmed in handheld, where you realize the epic and tragic quality of the tale is overshadowed by how much of a dick your dad really was. Stories work because they leave out ugly details like whining, riding potato monsters to impress your girlfriend, and going to the bathroom after a bad six pack of Jawa juice. The Ken Burns version would still work, it's just impossible to get the bad jokes and cries of "YIPPEE!" out of your head after you've heard them.

Try describing the prequels to someone who hasn't seen them, without embellishing them with opinion, and see if they can guess how bad the movies really are. I doubt they can. So it's not the story so much as the annoying humanistic details that ruin the mythological fairy tale quality.

Could a second draft have made it all less disappointing? Sure, but try selling that to a studio. "See, it's got no parts that kids will enjoy!" Ah, a movie purely for nerds. That always works.

Well, if you're looking for a kind of "second draft", you can find the "Phantom Edits" of Episode I and II online. Once you cut out most of Jar-Jar and the "Yippee!" crap in Ep. I, it becomes a much better story. Ditto with the awkward love scenes in Ep. II. Unfortunately there's nothing that could be done about the wooden acting, but it at least makes it a little easier to stomach.

As for starting from scratch on the prequels, I definitely would have made Anakin around 13 in the first movie and closer to 30 in the third (at least mid/late 20s). The kiddie stuff definitely doesn't hold up to the precedent set in the first trilogy. Also, the fact that they cast such a skinny little waif for "adult" Anakin never sat right with me, either, since Vader was always a big dude. Sure, he was half machine, but it just didn't seem right.

[Fortis]

The "why" of Darth Vader is unnecesary. He was already great in the first movie before he had any character or story, because there were hardly any other, memorable movie villains that weren't goofy. In fact a lot of people hate that he turned out to be a decrepid old eggman, so that didn't make him any greater.

I included the "why" for continuity of my post, it was important to include why I thought Darth Vader was cool, to emphasize his younger self's uncoolness. Not everybody has the same opinion as me, or as passionate as me, so I used that part of my "essay" of sorts, to get people on my side before I shamelessly tore apart something, that some people, might still like.

As for the prequels, no offense, but it's easy to point out the flaws in someone else's work. Especially when the flaws are so blatantly obvious that even six-year-olds go, "What a load of crap!" It would be another thing if someone came up with a better prequel trilogy before knowing what Lucas would do. There might be some material like that floating around in obscure nerd forums, but it's still just a matter of opinion and could have sucked just as much as actual movies.

Don't Impugn me honor! I didn't just point out George Lucas's mistakes, I fixed them. You are right, anybody can point out the problems, but don't try to dismiss my argument by saying that. I spent hours and hours over the space of a month figuring this out. Trust me, what I put in that huge long post, isn't even close to how long of a word document where I tore apart the characters and story of star wars is.

The prequels blow because the cast was too young. They're like adult-themed kids movies. And what the hell is that? Beats me. Some genre that must be ahead of its time and we just don't "get" it yet. Darth Vader is still the greatest villain of all time. Darth Vader is the guy in black who chokes people to death for no reason. He's not some whiny kid who had a tiff with his boyfriend, no matter what some wrinkly old overactor decided to knight him as.

So you think the only reason why the Star Wars prequels blow is because the cast was too young? Personally I would love to see Alec Guiness reprise his role as Obi Wan, and to have Anakin Skywalker be played by Tom Hanks, I'm sure that would have made this movie great.

Sure Darth Vader may still be the greatest villain of all time, but the prequels put an asterisk next to his villain status.

Besides, I think the substance is in the story. The prequels are not the story, they're the documentary of the story filmed in handheld, where you realize the epic and tragic quality of the tale is overshadowed by how much of a dick your dad really was. Stories work because they leave out ugly details like whining, riding potato monsters to impress your girlfriend, and going to the bathroom after a bad six pack of Jawa juice. The Ken Burns version would still work, it's just impossible to get the bad jokes and cries of "YIPPEE!" out of your head after you've heard them.

What does this even mean? A documentary about the epic story? I know this is an analogy, but seriously, I don't know how this can justify the prequels in your mind. And to be honest, the story of Star Wars only worked because a childish old guy with a great imagination stole from other better stories and ideas for heroes that made the Star Wars that we know of today.

Try describing the prequels to someone who hasn't seen them, without embellishing them with opinion, and see if they can guess how bad the movies really are. I doubt they can. So it's not the story so much as the annoying humanistic details that ruin the mythological fairy tale quality.

I will give you this, I agree that if you were as unbiased as possible when talking about the story of the prequels to somebody, they would want to see them. The story rocks, the idea of the hero failing? Its awesome, It is the filler we get inbetween that sucks.

Could a second draft have made it all less disappointing? Sure, but try selling that to a studio. "See, it's got no parts that kids will enjoy!" Ah, a movie purely for nerds. That always works.

These movies should not have been intended for children. They are not the demographic, that shouldn't stop them from making a movie appropriate for children, but the Star Wars movies shouldn't have been made with children in mind. And it would not be only for nerds, people read fantasy novels, romance novels, sci-fi novels, thrillers, etc. to get away from this world. People want to be transported to a new imaginably wonderful world, they want to feel emotions that they don't feel in real life. They want to feel the intensity and stresses that the hero's feel in the story. People read fantasy novels because they have stories and ideas that transcend reality.

So yes, it always works. Look at the top ten movies in the box office, http://www.imdb.com/boxoffice/alltimegross
Every single one of those except for Titanic, are what you define as "nerd movies." But all ten of them, transport the viewer into another time and place, and that is why people watch Star Wars.

[bratpop]

Oh don't go throwing money in my face now. When's the last time you heard a group of adults talk about how great Spider-Man 2 was. The villain of that movie was just a guy doing an experiment who, because he sucked, was going to fail and blow-up New York. Wow, great story.

The point was that the ideal Star Wars prequels would essentially be novels devoid of anything that made it a popular movie franchise. So all the nerds would love them, and that's mainly because Star Wars fans have grown up reading Star Wars novels, and real, better sci-fi that Star Wars introduced them to. But the movies would probably not be much more successful with the general public, or beloved, or quotable, or be a big draw when they finally got shown on network TV. I mean how much money did the prequels make? Tons. But how many of those people WISH they hadn't bought tickets? Nothing could ever live up to the original Star Wars.

There's a Star Wars prequel trilogy that would appease fans, and there's a Star Wars prequel trilogy that would be a mainstream hit with everybody. And I don't think anybody has come close to the second one. Probably not even the first one. George Lucas for all his genius couldn't come up with kid friendly material that didn't annoy people. Who could do better? Certainly not fan fiction writers. And Star Wars needs to appeal to all ages or else it isn't Star Wars. The prequels fail because they're half not Star Wars, and the kiddie crap was just trivial. Sort of like giving your kid a PSP while you watch the movie.

[ChrisHanel]

I'm posting here just as a note that I refuse to join this discussion.

It's more a reminder to myself than anything, in case i suddenly have a relapse.