Cinematic Titanic

[Rude]

Yeah, I'm with BEERxTaco that there's a bit too much complaining about this before anyone's seen the finished product...

I don't think that anyone is bitching about the actual product, because you're right... no one has even seen it yet. I'm sure it'll be great. The preview thing they posted looks awesome.

So the actual product doesn't have anything to do with it. We were just discussing how disappointed we were with the way things have been mishandled regarding the release date and whatnot. And even you would have to agree that things weren't quite up to snuff on the business end of Cinematic Titanic.

So, is there a way to discuss how bummed we were without being accused of bitching? 

-Rude

[Qrusher14242]

I just dont understand the pricing. $13 for download?? and $16 for a DVD-R in a sleeve. It wont be a blind purchase like Rifftrax is. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the first one, but really hope they drop the price at least on the download. Why didnt they set it at 9.99?? I also cant believe they dont have a forum or anything yet, the site just looks like a blog now.

[mrbasehart]

I just dont understand the pricing. $13 for download?? and $16 for a DVD-R in a sleeve. It wont be a blind purchase like Rifftrax is. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the first one, but really hope they drop the price at least on the download. Why didnt they set it at 9.99?? I also cant believe they dont have a forum or anything yet, the site just looks like a blog now.

I'm hoping the high price is because this is so they can recoup the cost of the start-up.  Plus it's the first time out and they might be a little worried about the kind of interest they'd generate.

[Isaac S.]

I just dont understand the pricing. $13 for download?? and $16 for a DVD-R in a sleeve. It wont be a blind purchase like Rifftrax is. I am giving them the benefit of the doubt on the first one, but really hope they drop the price at least on the download. Why didnt they set it at 9.99?? I also cant believe they dont have a forum or anything yet, the site just looks like a blog now.

Have you ever opened a store on CafePress.com?  It's a lot like that.  It's not easy to make things cheap when you're using someone else's resources to distribute your product, if you still want to make a profit off your work.  If the product becomes established enough to attract big-time attention, maybe they can get a better distributor with better resources and eventually have pressed DVDs and cases and all that fancy stuff.  Really, though, it's the content that matters, and if I can get $16 worth of funny from the CT show, does it really matter how it was manufactured or if it has a case?

Someone on another board made a comparison to $9.99 iTunes downloads, but it's not a good one.  Here are five reasons why:

• Movies on iTunes can't be burned to DVD
• Movies on iTunes aren't DVD quality.
• Movies on iTunes are generally well on their way to making back their costs, if they haven't already done so, having made millions at the box office.
• Movies on iTunes don't have Joel, Trace, Frank, Mary Jo, and J. Elvis riffing on them, some of them doing this for the first time in 15 years.
• Movies on iTunes don't give residuals to the writers.

While the download is more expensive for CT than for iTunes, I'd gladly pay iTunes another $3 to be able to download my purchased movies there in DVD quality and to burn them to a DVD, which is what you're getting with CT.  Whether you'd do the same is a matter of personal taste, really, but still, its apples and oranges.

Niche products like CT (and Film Crew, and MST3K, for that matter) are also always more expensive because of the sheer quantity of product a big studio blockbuster sells.  For much the same reason Wal-Mart has low prices (read: quantity, quantity, quantity), the studios' big movies can be sold for less than a niche product like CT, which you might think of as your local grocer (or music store or import game store or whatever tickles your fancy) who carries the special items the big stores don't have.  Sure, they're more expensive, but you really like those things, so you buy them from him.

Joel and the gang provide us the riffing we can't get at Wal-Mart, so we'll buy them from them.  As long as the riffing is of good quality, of course.

[Qrusher14242]

I guess i can understand the price, but i wont buy all of them like i do with Rifftrax cause it just costs too much.  And i certainly wont pay $16 for a DVD-R in paper sleeve, its just not worth it. Maybe if it was a pressed dvd with a case and everything like The Film Crew. I would gladly pay less for a Divx(Not DRM) of it.

[bettertomorrowamy]

I will pay!!

[AmandaGal]

Have you ever opened a store on CafePress.com?  It's a lot like that.  It's not easy to make things cheap when you're using someone else's resources to distribute your product, if you still want to make a profit off your work.  If the product becomes established enough to attract big-time attention, maybe they can get a better distributor with better resources and eventually have pressed DVDs and cases and all that fancy stuff.  Really, though, it's the content that matters, and if I can get $16 worth of funny from the CT show, does it really matter how it was manufactured or if it has a case?

With a store on Cafe Press you get crappy quality, crappy customer service and a crappy overall experience.  It's often cheaper for you and the consumer to go to a local shop, get 20-30 shirts printed and sell those.  The only reasons to use Cafe Press at all is their "network" for advertising, but CT already has that, the fact that you don't have to hassle with mailing them out and keeping up with money and the fact that you don't have to pre-print (but CT has a decent estimation of product sales by their mailing list subscribers). 

I am disappointed CT isn't as professional as a local band trying to hock their CD, which I think is a better comparison than Cafe Press.  If I ever order a local band's CD, it's generally reasonably priced, because they want to get the word about themselves out, and professionally stamped.  It's also distributed in a professional manner.  It just seems like there are cheaper, better options available.  Much like I wouldn't buy a shirt from Mallon if he sold it on Cafe Press for $30, I won't buy a DVD from a company that is gouging me for a DVD-R.

Your analogy to cafe press and your later saying this is a way to recoup costs are contradictory.  If this is a way to recoup start-up costs, it has nothing to do with distribution.  If this price is a cause of their method of distribution, we can only hope they open their eyes and do something else soon because they aren't even getting most of our money.  Some third party is. If you've ever had a cafe press shop, you know that you make very little for every product you sell.  Cafepress makes a lot because they cut corners on quality of merchandise.   I, myself, don't feel like paying a middle man a large percentage of the fee.

[Isaac S.]

Your analogy to cafe press and your later saying this is a way to recoup costs are contradictory.  If this is a way to recoup start-up costs, it has nothing to do with distribution.  If this price is a cause of their method of distribution, we can only hope they open their eyes and do something else soon because they aren't even getting most of our money.  Some third party is. If you've ever had a cafe press shop, you know that you make very little for every product you sell.  Cafepress makes a lot because they cut corners on quality of merchandise.   I, myself, don't feel like paying a middle man a large percentage of the fee.

It has everything to do with recouping startup costs.  Would you prefer they bought DVD-R duplicators and did it themselves?  That may mean they make more of the money for themselves, but it would eat up a lot of their time.  More likely, they'd have to pay a staff to do it, and the price point would then remain the same.  Or do you know of a place that will press discs for less and/or provide the bandwidth to download a 4GB DVD for less, because if so, shoot the CT folks an e-mail or leave it as a comment on their survey or something.  I'm sure they'd love to hear it.  For the record, I'm not being sarcastic here, I'm serious.  I'm sure they did their research, but if they missed a better option, I bet they'd love to know about it.

I'm not saying their current method comes off as terribly professional, because it doesn't, but I am saying that the product is what it is, and if we want them to get better, we need to support their initial efforts.  This is the method they're going with, like it or not.  No one is going to come along and offer them an opportunity to produce a better product (pressed DVDs, cases, etc.) if their current product isn't selling well.  A potential financial backer will take it as a sign that no one wants the content, not that no one liked the method of delivery.

Really, folks, isn't it all about content?  Does the packaging really matter that much to you?  A DVD-R plays the same on your DVD player as a pressed disc.  The packaging may look nice on the shelf, but it doesn't do much.  I know I've paid $16 or more for single-DVD Rhino MST3K releases.  Yes, they came with packaging and were pressed DVDs, but what I was really paying for was the content.  I bought it for the show, not for the box.  Maybe that's just me.  I pay for the show itself.  I couldn't care less about the packaging.  And I think this show will be worth the $16 (and even more so, the $13 for the future downloads).

Edit: Something else I just thought about.  Yes, it's cheaper to get shirts made in bulk, but CafePress is all about the ease of use, and the on-demand nature of the thing.  No worries about dealing with unsold merchandise, and no shelling out big bucks in advance.  If it doesn't sell, it's never made.  Same thing for EZTakes/DVD Wagon.  Again, it comes down to support.  Bottom line: if we give them enough financial support with this release and any other they sell this way, it will aid them in building up some cash with which to invest in better technology, better options, if their fans aren't satisfied with this method.  I guess, personally, I just fail to understand why it even matters when the content itself is what we're really after here, and that's going to be the same regardless or DVD-R/pressed and package/no package issues.

[AmandaGal]

One issue is, ime, a pressed DVD lasts considerably longer than a DVD-R.  I used to work in databases.  We made daily backups with DVD-R media.  Regardless of what the manufacturer says, even high quality DVD-Rs go bad at a pretty alarming rate that you notice when you're making hundreds a week.  We would send backups off to climate controlled storage and when we got them back, we'd still have bad ones at a rate of about 10%.  That's not much unless you're the 10% and your house isn't even climate controlled. Same goes for CD-Rs I made 10 years. Some of them just don't work.

I will repeat, if it has to do with the distribution system, it has nothing to do with startup costs.  They aren't getting the extra money they're charging to recoup anything.  If Joel had gone to some company with a decent presentation, they probably would have given him some resources without "proof" as in sales figures.  Rifftrax is here.  MST3k is on Rhino.  He maybe has a large audience for his mailing lists.  Companies will listen to that.

I'm not saying I know better.  I'm saying if the teenage boys down the street can get me a professionally printed CD for $12, I expect it from Joel.  I don't know anything about making DVDs.  I don't know what companies do it.  Perhaps Joel should talk to the teenage boys down the street.   At the very least, he should be apologetic about the quality and say, "We're looking for something better." or "just until we get off our feet."

Edit: I mentioned not buying in bulk in my post as a plus for cafe press.  I also contended that CT has a mailing list filled with names of potential consumers.  Perhaps not a perfect scenario, but a good basis for not having too much "extra content" to sell.

[BEERxTaco]

So the actual product doesn't have anything to do with it. We were just discussing how disappointed we were with the way things have been mishandled regarding the release date and whatnot. And even you would have to agree that things weren't quite up to snuff on the business end of Cinematic Titanic.

So, is there a way to discuss how bummed we were without being accused of bitching? 

-Rude

Yes, I know, maybe I was just frustrated reading so much negativity.  I really don't think anything was "mishandled" though. It's just the way it is. They delayed it to make it better. I'm okay with that. Their distribution is temporarily awkward (regarding download) due to rights issues. Kinda like when we could never see Catalina Caper on Comedy Central.

I agree they need to address their international following. It's a big chunk of the pie.

Here's hoping we'll all be happy and forget about startup issues after the ball's rolling. And while we're at it, let's hope the folks who are taking this whole CT vs RT thing WAY too seriously get a life...

[Isaac S.]

One issue is, ime, a pressed DVD lasts considerably longer than a DVD-R.  I used to work in databases.  We made daily backups with DVD-R media.  Regardless of what the manufacturer says, even high quality DVD-Rs go bad at a pretty alarming rate that you notice when you're making hundreds a week.  We would send backups off to climate controlled storage and when we got them back, we'd still have bad ones at a rate of about 10%.  That's not much unless you're the 10% and your house isn't even climate controlled. Same goes for CD-Rs I made 10 years. Some of them just don't work.

I will repeat, if it has to do with the distribution system, it has nothing to do with startup costs.  They aren't getting the extra money they're charging to recoup anything.  If Joel had gone to some company with a decent presentation, they probably would have given him some resources without "proof" as in sales figures.  Rifftrax is here.  MST3k is on Rhino.  He maybe has a large audience for his mailing lists.  Companies will listen to that.

I'm not saying I know better.  I'm saying if the teenage boys down the street can get me a professionally printed CD for $12, I expect it from Joel.  I don't know anything about making DVDs.  I don't know what companies do it.  Perhaps Joel should talk to the teenage boys down the street.   At the very least, he should be apologetic about the quality and say, "We're looking for something better." or "just until we get off our feet."

Edit: I mentioned not buying in bulk in my post as a plus for cafe press.  I also contended that CT has a mailing list filled with names of potential consumers.  Perhaps not a perfect scenario, but a good basis for not having too much "extra content" to sell.

Fair criticisms as far as the shelf life of DVD-R.  I doubt, though, that's it's as easy as you imply it is to get financial backing for this sort of thing and still own 100% of it, which, after the ordeal with Mallon and BBI, I'm sure is a concern for Joel.  DVDs and CDs are different animals.  Do you know any aspiring directors who use pressed DVDs to distribute their films?  (Sometimes my honest questions sound accusatory; I swear they're not.)  And I bet this thing wouldn't have gotten off the ground nearly as soon had they gone that route.  Goodness knows we were all in tears (well, I know I was) when December 10 came and went with no CT.

I'm friends with someone who's started a company to make a video game for a sort of niche market, and it hasn't been easy to get the thing funded and still own it, despite thousands of subscribers to his game's e-mail list and even paid pre-orders.  I'm sure the ownership thing is a big part of it for Joel and co.  Who distributes this kind of niche content, though?  Rhino's got MST3K and Mallon got the Film Crew out of Rhino on the basis that it would compete with MST3K, so that's a no-go.  Shout! Factory has the Film Crew and is looking into doing more with them, so for similar reasons, they wouldn't want to get into that.  Who else is left that would go for it?  I also suspect that Joel and the gang liked the idea of downloadable DVDs (as do I), though it seems a majority of their audience doesn't care for it as much.  That may be another large part of why they originally went with EZTakes before doing the survey.

I still disagree about the startup costs thing.  I think we must both be (ahem) "talking" past each other.  I know they don't get the extra money they're charging, but no doubt they have to charge that much to get the cut they need to get, keeping licensing movies and such in mind, with EZTakes likely taking the bulk of it.  Or maybe it's simply a supply and demand thing.  There's such a demand for this thing, it's taking them 10 days to ship.  With that kind of demand, heck, prices could probably be higher.  They obviously don't have the supply to meet it, so they could up the price (at least at first) so they even out.

Is it ideal?  No.  Does it allow them to publish their content and still own it?  Yes.  There are probably better options, but none would be as affordable as EZTakes for something just getting off the ground.  And I'm willing bet the future will bring better options, though you're right that it'd be easier to make that bet if Joel would say so.

We may be stuck with EZTakes for a while with CT.  I think we just have to live with it.  It's easier for me, though, because I guess I just don't have the same issues with it that you and a lot of other folks seem to have.  Your negatives are my positives (no bulky packaging, download-to-burn immediately) or neutrals (DVD-R vs. DVD, though I'll be rethinking that stance now that you've pointed out the reliability issues).

We'll have to agree to disagree, I guess.   We both want them to succeed, I'm sure, so whatever path they choose ultimately, let's just hope it brings them lots of good fortune.

[Isaac S.]

Here's hoping we'll all be happy and forget about startup issues after the ball's rolling. And while we're at it, let's hope the folks who are taking this whole CT vs RT thing WAY too seriously get a life...

And how!  Well said.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

I wonder if they realized they aren't going to be able to do that many movies a year and that's why the cost is higher than expected.  They may not have realized getting the home video rights is far different than getting broadcast rights...  That's where RiffTrax has an advantage, no rights to negotiate and no sets to build...

I wish the preview had fewer clips that were longer, it's hard to get a real sense of the flow of the show with the short clips.  But it was real nice to hear those voices again.

It looks like the 2 groups are playing to their strengths, I think Joel was always more into the props and sight gags than Mike.

[torgosPizza]

Here's hoping we'll all be happy and forget about startup issues after the ball's rolling. And while we're at it, let's hope the folks who are taking this whole CT vs RT thing WAY too seriously get a life...

And how!  Well said.

QFT. You have no idea how much I want that.

[mfusion66]

$15.94 is excessive for any dvd.  If the CT crew does several dvds and the prices come down, then cool.  But if they release 5 eposides and the price stays there, then it's way too much.

My shelves are busting with mst3k tapes and dvd's that I've bought and traded, and now my hard drive is filling up with rifftrax (that I paid for), and I am very eagerly awaiting the first ep of CT.  But the price just struck me as majorly excessive.