Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)

[Kete]

Why do you even stay subscribed to this thread, Im?

As far as I know, the only way to have it not show up in your Unread Replies is to delete all of your posts.

[NRRork]

Oh great! This thread is back. With the same opinions repeated over and over and over.

At least you know to refer to them as OPINIONS. I got into a screaming argument the other day with some people. Not because I said they had to agree with me about liking the movie. The point of contention was me trying to tell them THEIR opinion wasn't shared by all the fans.

That, unfortunately, was too steep an expectation to have of them.

I'm just worried Disney is gonna see all that and try to "fix" this trilogy that not everyone believes is broken, and Abrams is gonna overcorrect and play it too safe for Episode IX and go all Dark Knight Rises on us and completely ignore the middle chapter.

[Edward J Grug III]

Why do you even stay subscribed to this thread, Im?

As far as I know, the only way to have it not show up in your Unread Replies is to delete all of your posts.

But you can just not read or participate. There are lots of threads that show up in my Unread Replies that I just mark as read and ignore.

[Cyrusso]

I think it fucked over the original trilogy, shat on established characters, turned space fantasy into bullshit drama, and basically ruined a lot of enjoyment of those films for me.  This isn't a new statement from me, but your willful ignorance is prompting me to reiterate it.  I. Hate. This. Movie.  I hated the previous one and the "break" that this was supposed to represent with it just compounded all of the problems.

It should not have had any of the original characters in it at all.

Okay, first off, please don't call me ignorant, second of all, I don't understand how The Force Awakens or The Last Jedi did anything bad to the original trilogy. The fact of the matter is that sometimes people change, and not always for the better. Watching The Last Jedi for the third time the other day, I was searching, looking very hard for any reason to call the movie garbage or to justify any sort of hate directed at it. You know, I can understand people not liking certain PARTS of the film, but that's not remotely the same thing as being angry at the movie as a whole.

Why did Luke change, going into exile, cutting himself off from the force? I perfectly understood why, it was that single moment, that one confrontation between him and Ben/Kylo Ren. But he said it was a passing thought, and he felt great shame over it. But by the time he could stabilize himself, it was already too late. Luke feels as though he is responsible for not just the death and destruction of his pupils and the Jedi Temple, but arguably in some part for creating the first order. It made sense to me that he'd want to exile himself, go some place to die for what he feels he did. Im... that's not destroying a character, that's expanding on the entire scope of the extent of their morality and that made for some great drama and some great conflict.

What was great is that he did what we all knew Luke Skywalker would do, he came back to save what was left of the Resistance, and sacrificed his life in the attempt. Sure, you can say that he did or didn't really come back, but the point is that in any case, he still laid down his life and did what Rey hoped Luke would do at the beginning of the film. That's whats most important, Luke died saving his friends and family. I would expect nothing less from Luke, a character I grew up getting to know very well, watching the original trilogy to death as a kid.

While I'm on the subject of the original trilogy, I'll defend that to the death as well. It's still great, it's a magical piece of story-telling about a character coming to grips with the burden of the responsibility of defending freedom and his friends as well. I felt that the character development was excellent too and whatever complaints there are against the original trilogy, those movies as a whole made me care about characters in a galaxy far far away. That trilogy made me feel real emotions for people who only existed in the realm of fantasy, Most importantly though, it told an epic story of good versus evil... just like the new movies have done so far.

[arutha1000]

There are many ways TLJ damages the original trilogy. First, it undoes everything that happened. At the end of RoTJ, the Empire is critically damaged and on their way to being ended completely. Now we have the Empire back with no explanation as to how. Basically, everything the Rebellion did in the original trilogy had no purpose as the Empire came right back (somehow).  TLJ even undoes the progress made in TFA. Starkiller base should have taken all the resources of the First Order and it's destruction should have crippled them. The destruction of multiple planets without warning or real cause should have rallied the galaxy to destroy the First Order. Instead, TLJ shows us the First Order is as powerful as ever and it's the rebellion that is practically destroyed even before 90% of them are killed.

Luke's character is completely destroyed. Luke is literally the only person who thinks the most evil man in the galaxy can be saved. After going through trials and becoming a literal master Jedi, somehow he can't control himself enough to not try to kill a boy, his nephew, who has literally done nothing. TFA implies Luke has left to learn the origins of the Jedi in order to combat the upcoming darkness. Instead, he's become a hermit who says everyone he knows and loves can die for all he cares. The most hopeful character in the entire series has become the most hopeless and apathetic character. His best friend was just murders? Whatever. His sister is wearing out her life trying to save the galaxy? Meh. Let them all die, he's not lifting a finger to do anything. Not to mention, Luke hates the Jedi for no reason. He says something along the lines of "The Jedi think they own the Force." Nowhere in any movie or even EU is this stated. Obi Wan and Yoda literally say the exact things Luke says in TLJ, but somehow Rian Johnson felt what he said was new and original, as if he's never actually seen any of the SW movies.

Not to mention Han Solo. Han starts out as a selfish smuggler who only cares about himself. As the trilogy goes on, he grows and learns. In TFA, all of that is undone.

So yes, this film literally undoes everything that happened in the original series.

[The Lurker]

The First Order =/= The Empire, though.  They're a bunch of Empire fanboys, canonically.

[NRRork]

The First Order was made up of Imperial remnants who spent three decades regrouping and rebuilding in the remote, far-flung regions of the galaxy. Thirty years is totally long enough to do that.

Luke DID control himself! He had a dark thought that in an instant he put out of his mind. Sounds like a pretty damn disciplined Jedi to me. I don't recall that being a rule that they can NEVER have a dark thought. Anyone strong with the Force will always have to resist that lure of the dark side. It's always there, always quick to offer up the easier, faster solution. That doesn't go away. Even YODA probably had to fight dark thoughts from time to time.

Han Solo lost his only son. I can't even begin to imagine what he and Leia went through as his parents. Losing a child has been known to end marriages. And grieving people have been known to bury themselves in their work to cope, too. Like Han and Leia both did.

[NRRork]

And Luke didn't think all his friends and loved ones could just DIE for all he cared.

He was dejected and ashamed and depressed as ALL hell, I'd imagine. He probably thought he'd just do more harm than good after what happened and they'd be better off without him. The types of things that go through the heads of people with survivor's guilt or depression.

As for the "Jedi don't own the Force". That's something HE came up with on his own, and his character arc for the film was realizing he was WRONG about all this.

[The Lurker]

Didn't Luke technically turn to the Dark Side at least once in the EU?

[Quirk]

Generally, I find that people who hated Last Jedi don't know how people work.

[Darth Geek]

Kylo Ren slaughtered his students and destroyed his temple. Luke blamed himself (correctly) and went into exile. This makes sense from a human behavior perspective.
The only issue I have is that we are told that all of this happened, not shown. When we last left Luke at the end of the original trilogy he was at a personal high. It would have been preferable to see more of him in that positive light, and then slowly seen him change.

[RVR II]

So the BluRay releases on March 27 for those interested
Carry on with the Force/discussions

[Pak-Man]

Kylo Ren slaughtered his students and destroyed his temple. Luke blamed himself (correctly) and went into exile. This makes sense from a human behavior perspective.
The only issue I have is that we are told that all of this happened, not shown. When we last left Luke at the end of the original trilogy he was at a personal high. It would have been preferable to see more of him in that positive light, and then slowly seen him change.

That either leaves us with, "He's been on that personal high for 40 years- until now!" or a movie full of CG actors.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Kylo Ren slaughtered his students and destroyed his temple. Luke blamed himself (correctly) and went into exile. This makes sense from a human behavior perspective.
The only issue I have is that we are told that all of this happened, not shown. When we last left Luke at the end of the original trilogy he was at a personal high. It would have been preferable to see more of him in that positive light, and then slowly seen him change.

From what we have been told it seems he was doing well up until that one night, then disaster and he fell into deep depression and unfortunately had the ability to go be a hermit where no one could find him and he had no support to get him out of his depression.  Single events can mess people up quickly, it's not always a slow change.

This makes perfect sense to me so I don't need to be shown it.  And Star Wars has a bad track record of showing this stuff, we really didn't need to see the story of little Anakin turning into Vader.  What Obi Wan said to Luke in that one scene was all we needed to know.

[Darth Geek]

Kylo Ren slaughtered his students and destroyed his temple. Luke blamed himself (correctly) and went into exile. This makes sense from a human behavior perspective.
The only issue I have is that we are told that all of this happened, not shown. When we last left Luke at the end of the original trilogy he was at a personal high. It would have been preferable to see more of him in that positive light, and then slowly seen him change.

From what we have been told it seems he was doing well up until that one night, then disaster and he fell into deep depression and unfortunately had the ability to go be a hermit where no one could find him and he had no support to get him out of his depression.  Single events can mess people up quickly, it's not always a slow change.

Well, I meant more of a slow change from the relatively young resistance fighter to an older wiser master in charge of other students. The actual event of his downfall and becoming a broken person was sudden, yes.

I don't really blame fans for complaining "You broke the character!" because of this large leap between movies. Bad things happen to people, they can become broken because of it. It's realistic, but it's certainly not what someone who loves these characters wants to happen to them.

The filmmakers are telling us "A long time has passed, the characters you loved were changed by significant events. This is a story about the effects of those changes." That is something that audience members individually have to either decide that they are interested to see where this goes, or not. But that's a personal choice.