Star Wars: The Force Awakens - Spoilertastic Thread

[SJP]

But that's what I like about this discussion, to be honest.  I figured that in a lot of ways, this movie was going to be divisive, because of what was going on with the series as a whole.

But Soguru, I will tell you this: I was in high school when Phantom Menace came out.  When I saw it, I completely let my mind blow past Jar-Jar, midichlorians, Jake Lloyd, and a bunch of other stuff.  What I saw when I saw that was new Star Wars that I thought was never going to happen, and I still thought the fight between Darth Maul, Obi-Wan, and Qui-Gon was thrilling and stunning.

The next day at school, I heard everybody I knew completely harp on how utterly stupid, pointless, and gibberish garbage it was.

I'll be the first to admit, the prequels have problems...many problems.  Many, many problems.  I know exactly why everyone dislikes them and I don't have any interest in changing anyone's opinions on them, and I have many of the same qualms about them.  But there's stuff I see in them, too, that no amount of negative feedback can make me dislike, either.  I still like that duel, ballet style or not.  It's still very well-filmed and powerful in its own way.  In the same way, I appreciate the characters and the way the story of VII is developing, and I think it's going to turn into something remarkable, but I didn't get the thrill that my child self felt watching the original movies or high school me did watching Jedi duke it out.  It doesn't mean I hated it, or I think the film is fundamentally flawed...I completely understand why people like the new one, and I like it too.  But I also know it's weird to see something you like and really enjoy and watch people rip it apart, because I went through the same thing.

In other words, I like hearing both sides of it, because I lived through it once before, and I personally think the fun of it is seeing it all unfold a second (and third, technically) time.  And that its so discussable is a great thing, good and bad.

[soguru]

Please don't do that. If there's one thing that's changed in me since 1999, it's my ability to be openly and readily critical of something right away as opposed to weeks or months later. I'm not letting myself look past the flaws of The Force Awakens, I'm so damn cynical and negative that it would be hard for me not to be these days.

[Rainbow Dash]

Tough to defend a film series with three pretty definitive reviews about their totally and complete failure as both Star Wars films, and films in general.  Most other films that people can argue about don't have that.

[MattD1972]

I don't know if they filmed Harrison Ford's scenes chronologically, but it felt like he got better as the movie went on. Sad to see him go. Carrie Fisher is a lot more problematic. It feels like she had a stroke sometime recently. That, or we have to break out the Rick James quote.

[Darth Geek]

I don't know if they filmed Harrison Ford's scenes chronologically, but it felt like he got better as the movie went on. Sad to see him go. Carrie Fisher is a lot more problematic. It feels like she had a stroke sometime recently. That, or we have to break out the Rick James quote.

While watching the movie I was more and more thrilled at how much Han Solo we were getting, since I thought he'd just be cameo. So I was hoping we'd get similarly a lot of Leia too. I figured by now she might be a pilot too or something. A more active character like she FINALLY became in Return of the Jedi. But she really was just a cameo. I don't know if it's because Carrie Fisher couldn't handle a bigger role, or what. But I am hoping that she has more of a role in the subsequent movies. Given that she's the leader of the rebels now, I would expect to see her do a little more.

[soguru]

I'd love to see Leia as a pilot too. Have her do something dramatically important and general-like.

[MrTorso]

I'd love to see Leia as a pilot too. Have her do something dramatically important and general-like.

What generals go on missions?  IF movies have taught me one thing is that generals/leaders stay at the base with a big map and little models of planes/tanks/infantry that they push around with craps stick.

[The Lurker]

Patton?

[SJP]

I agree that one of the things I really liked about it is that Han isn't just tossed into the movie to please fans.  In a lot of ways, it is his story as well as the stories of the new people, regardless of what you think of his fate at the end of the movie.

And earlier, all I was doing was saying I just think it's good to have a rational discussion about a movie, and the stuff about the prequels let me look at them more critically, but also to not feel bad about liking the stuff I like regardless of consensus.  I'm in a weird place in this one where I liked Force Awakens, but didn't love it to pieces the way the critical consensus depicts.  It didn't "wow" me the way I hoped, but I walked into it the same way I walked out...cautiously optimistic.  And that's not a bad place to be.

[Parker_Hylton]

7. The dialogue was SO BAD. It was really forcedand awkward so much of the time, I really felt like I was sitting through a bad high school play.

THANK you.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Started to think I was going crazy...

[Quantum Vagina]

7. The dialogue was SO BAD. It was really forcedand awkward so much of the time, I really felt like I was sitting through a bad high school play.

THANK you.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Started to think I was going crazy...

I thought the worst of it came from Finn and Kylo Ren. Everything felt just like it was Space Action Movie with Star Wars things thrown in, aND Adam Driver was Hayden Christensen 2.0

[jonalame]

 I don't know where to start, so, for now I just want to talk a bit about Kylo Ren. I thought Adam Driver's performance was captivating. His Kylo Ren is weak and driven by fear and suffering. I have never seen this type of villain in Star Wars before. I've seen blind anger and slow rage plenty of times, but there was something striking about this character that was incredibly strong with the Force, but also emotionally crippled. I think it is a reductive, dismissive thing to compare Adam to Hayden here. Hayden acted like he stubbed his toe. Adam wallowed in misery and weakness in a deluge of envious thoughts, perpetually terrifying himself with his own past actions. His internalization of his character is truly impressive. It was a creative risk, having the villain be a piteous coward, one that I think paid off. That motivation of self-loathing and guilt and regret really rang true in his actions. The need to be as "strong" as he perceived his grandfather was "strong" and to never feel as if he lived up to his own expectations. He thought if he could become dark enough, he could become powerful and wouldn't have to feel those feelings or memories again. The need to have his own dark mask, not because he needed it to survive, but because he is a coward who uses the facade as a tool to feel powerful and intimidating and to better emulate his ancestor. All of this while his dark side connection only fueled his fears and his strength in his fears.

Beyond the performance, the character was cool. His use of the force amounts to desperately grasping/preventing actions from occurring(seizing a plasma bolt or staying an opponent's hand) or relentlessly searching and prying for information, knowing some information out of fear. The fearful interrogator. I really found this interesting. When he stares at Finn before leaving Jakku, as he prayed to Vader to help him stop feeling "pangs" of the light, when he pleaded that he could do the job to Snoke, when he begged his father to die, when he realized that killing his father would not stop how he felt and silently mouthed "fa-ther" as his body fell away. As he repeatedly struck his wounded side, attacking his own pain. Hating his weakness and mourning his stupidity in killing his father, demanding of himself to sink beneath his feelings he begins to toy with the lives of Finn and Rey. Oh, and his lightsaber, as silly as I thought it looked in the trailers, really embodied his character. Cracked, fragile, volatile, seething, flickering, unraveling.

All that said, I've seen the movie thrice now and I am clearly biased, so there is that... but, hey, that should work a bit for me as well? I've had more time to analyze. No? Fine, fine. Let me know if any of that made sense.

[Quantum Vagina]

His saber only crackled because he removed the limiting field. Speaking as someone who sees conflicted teens on a weekly basis, Ren wasn't conflicted; he was a kid who wanted to be conflicted. He wanted to pretend he had a terrible life, because he wanted to emulate grandpa's hard decisions and life. I think the comparison between Christensen and Driver is reasonable, because they're both attempting and failing to play a depressed tortured character.

[MSTJedi]

His saber only crackled because he removed the limiting field. Speaking as someone who sees conflicted teens on a weekly basis, Ren wasn't conflicted; he was a kid who wanted to be conflicted. He wanted to pretend he had a terrible life, because he wanted to emulate grandpa's hard decisions and life. I think the comparison between Christensen and Driver is reasonable, because they're both attempting and failing to play a depressed tortured character.

Yeah, but I think the pathetic nature is intentional on Driver's part. Ren doesn't realize that by being impetuous and conflicted he's emulating his grandfather's path more than he realizes. If we accept Christensen's early version of Vader, we assume that over the years his rage calmed into the badassery we see in the OT.

[soguru]

7. The dialogue was SO BAD. It was really forcedand awkward so much of the time, I really felt like I was sitting through a bad high school play.

THANK you.  I'm glad I'm not the only one.  Started to think I was going crazy...

No, the dialogue was not great, but it was not bad either. What the hell are the both of you expecting? Maybe you should be thinking less about the writing and more about the characters. I mean we're basically watching the interactions of:
1)Finn- A guy who has been forcefully trained his whole life to shoot at stuff and feel a conditioned reaction to doing his job.
2)Rey-  A woman who has been abandoned and forced to fend for herself with potentially very little education.
3)Ren- A guy whose moral compass is simply and completely backwards, "By the grace of your training, I will not be seduced"(back to the light), THAT is interesting, and very un-Anakin. He doesn't come of as emo to me at all, instead, he feels like a twisted version of TV's Dexter Morgan. I'll tell you what else is un-Anakin, taking a laser-blast to the kidney and then trying to walk it off. I don't know if any of you have experienced Kidney pain, but I HAVE. It hurts like somebody constantly shoving a hot iron inside of a stab wound. You underestimate Ren. I really like his complexities, and the guy is bad-ass and instead of whining, his weaknesses come across in ways he doesn't show outwardly, he shows determination for his cause. In this way, he is most un-Anakin.