The Passion...

[torgosPizza]

But 85% of Swedes don't believe in god.

23% actually

Several studies have found Sweden to be one of the most secular countries in the world. According to Davie (1999), 85% of Swedes do not believe in God. In the Eurostat survey, 23% of Swedish citizens responded that "they believe there is a God", whereas 53% answered that "they believe there is some sort of spirit or life force" and 23% that "they do not believe there is any sort of spirit, God, or life force".

Also, this demographic map from 2005:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Europe_belief_in_god_upd.png

[J-Proof]

I was speaking rhetorically --and as I stated before, belief that the Big Bang happened is not denying the idea that God caused it to happen

And just because an other-worldy tablet explaining the big bang wasn't hurled to earth so that we could discover it doesn't mean we shouldn't believe in it!

As for archaeology, here's a quote from Archaeologist Edwin Yamauchi:
"Little of what was made or written in antiquity survives to this day; few of the ancient sites have been surveyed and a number have not even been found; probably fewer than 2 percent of the known sites have been meaningfully excavated; few of these have been more than scratched; and only a fraction of the fraction that have been excavated have been published and data made available to the scholarly world."

Odds are, we can't prove /that/ much ourselves using the archaeological finds that we have ready at our disposal via internet and books.

Just to clarify -- I AM A PROPONENT of the earth being created and formed through the evolutionary ideas that we have been discussing -- but that these happenings were caused by God.

if you have evidence proving further and further that evolution happened, then I say fantastic, because in my mind, it simply helps me see how great God really is.

[Tarantulas]

Same thing with the Israelites leaving Egypt... there are no records of this happening outside the bible.  The Egyptians didn't write about, NO ONE WROTE ABOUT IT.  Why?  Because it didn't happen.  Actual scientific proof that it didn't happen?  If some folks wander around for 40 years, they are going to leave some archaeological evidence behind.  And guess what?  They didn't.
well...

Sort of like the Big Bang Theory....

It's theorized that the Big Bang is how the universe was formed.. it is not scientific fact.

However, you believe that a giant space ghost (not the cool kind with Brak) created the universe out of nothing and that settles it.

At least science will change when new information comes along, you are permanently stuck in the dark ages.

[Tarantulas]

Either way, 90% of Americans believe in god. So it doesn't matter really...

That number is inaccurate... it's less than that, and growing every day.

[J-Proof]

Same thing with the Israelites leaving Egypt... there are no records of this happening outside the bible.  The Egyptians didn't write about, NO ONE WROTE ABOUT IT.  Why?  Because it didn't happen.  Actual scientific proof that it didn't happen?  If some folks wander around for 40 years, they are going to leave some archaeological evidence behind.  And guess what?  They didn't.
well...

Sort of like the Big Bang Theory....

It's theorized that the Big Bang is how the universe was formed.. it is not scientific fact.

However, you believe that a giant space ghost (not the cool kind with Brak) created the universe out of nothing and that settles it.

At least science will change when new information comes along, you are permanently stuck in the dark ages.

Yup! -- because no matter what theory or idea you give me explaining how the world got this way, down to the very emotions that I feel when I give my mom a hug, you cannot explain to me how it got there without something ex-scientific. Period.

[Phantom of Krankor]

Either way, 90% of Americans believe in god. So it doesn't matter really...

That number is inaccurate... it's less than that, and growing every day.

Sure it is. Source?

[torgosPizza]

you cannot explain to me how it got there without something ex-scientific. Period.

Even Dawkins agrees that this is something that is incredibly difficult to explain. But there are theories, including the multiverse theory, and the idea that the universe will stop expanding, and then contract, and then expand again - the expansion being the big bang. In other words, that there was no "Creation" so to speak, but that simply everything has always been. Again, see the link I posted about temporal contingencies.

[torgosPizza]

Sure it is. Source?

There was a Pew poll taken either this year or last year that put "religious faith" at 80% in the country (EDIT: Come to think of it, maybe even lower like 75%, I can't be sure offhand), but I can't find that data online. I'd have to research it more.

In 2001 an ARIS study found the number of "believers" at 81%, and nonbelievers at just over 14%, almost double the number of 8% from 1990.

I can't find more recent stats online yet, unfortunately, but I'm sure they are out there.

[J-Proof]

you cannot explain to me how it got there without something ex-scientific. Period.

Even Dawkins agrees that this is something that is incredibly difficult to explain. But there are theories, including the multiverse theory, and the idea that the universe will stop expanding, and then contract, and then expand again - the expansion being the big bang. In other words, that there was no "Creation" so to speak, but that simply everything has always been. Again, see the link I posted about temporal contingencies.

And that theory is no more credible than mine -- that something caused it all to be here. Bottom line is, though -- that we have to admit that science can't definitively tell us how matter came to be.

[J-Proof]

And just to defend my Jewish brothers and refute the argument that there is no evidence of the Hebrews being rescued from Egypt:

1.) It was commonplace for Pharaohs and Queens of the time to simply erase embarrassing history. Pharaoh Thutmose III destroyed virtually all records relating to Queen Hatshepsut, the previous ruler, whom he despised. Several years this incident, the ruling priests eliminated virtually all possible traces of the teachings of Pharaoh Akhenaten, whom they regarded as a heretic. So you can see, that the loss of several thousand slaves by the egyptians would have been an embarrassing enough loss to cause for history-erasing.

2.) Archaeologist Nelson Glueck in the 1930s, failed to find evidence of permanent settlements in the Transjordan and the Negev regions between 1900 and 1300 B.C, but since then, thigns have changed. Modern Archaeologist John Bimson noted that "Glueck's initial conclusions were definitely wrong [indeed he later retracted them], and it is disappointing to find scholars citing them as if they were still valid evidence."

3.) And as for the forty years spent in the desert -- recent satellite infrared technology has revealed ancient caravan routes in the Sinai. Satellite-image analyst George Stephen discovered evidence in the satellite photographs of ancient tracks made by "a massive number of people" going "from the Nile Delta straight south along the east bank of the Gulf of Suez and around the tip of the Sinai Peninsula." He also saw huge campsites along the route, one that fits the description given in the book of Exodus. And as scripture informs us, as punishment for their hard-headedness and as a sort of national purgatory, the Israelites were made to live "nomadic lives" and were not allowed to waste any of what they had, nor settle in sturdy firmaments.

Hope this info is found useful

[torgosPizza]

And that theory is no more credible than mine -- that something caused it all to be here. Bottom line is, though -- that we have to admit that science can't definitively tell us how matter came to be.

Well, I would say "at the moment" it can't. But the common answer to "how did it all begin?" is simply, "We don't know, and we're working on it."

[J-Proof]

Sth-weet.....

You should tell the forum about your magnificent experience with Carne Asada Fries today

[torgosPizza]

Yup! -- because no matter what theory or idea you give me explaining how the world got this way, down to the very emotions that I feel when I give my mom a hug, you cannot explain to me how it got there without something ex-scientific. Period.

One final thought about this. As much as I don't wish to keep running around in circles (I think this point has even been made already, but it raises an interesting followup).

This IS the main difference between science and religion. While to many, the two can coexist, to me they seem to be incompatible because they are two different ways of thinking about, and examining our world.

Just as I said in my answer to JP, about the beginning of existence. This is always true no matter what the question is - whether it's "why does tree wood stay rigid" or "what is air made of".. Please excuse my forthcoming generalizations.

The scientific mind will always say, "I don't know. I'd like to find out. I will work on my theory as to why until I can find evidence to support it."

The religious mind will say, "We already have the answer, and nothing you can do will change our minds about it."

A truly inquisitive person will never settle for "good enough." Scientists, and even armchair critics interested in just plain HOW STUFF WORKS, like me, are always open to the possibility of new things. Scientists ARE open-minded to the possibility that they are wrong; to the possibility that there is something greater out there. And statements such as "you can never convince me" show a deeply disturbing contention to just settle for the answers you have already been given.

I for one will always question. I question even the scientists and  their theories - how do they know this? How did they learn about the electron, to be able to harness its energy? How do we know what's inside the middle of the earth? (We don't know for sure, but we can make educated guesses). But I want to know HOW. Maybe we can't answer why - but that shouldn't mean we should just give up and say "okay, you're right."

If the common thought was to say, "You can never convince me," then the earth would still be flat, one skin color would be superior to others, mankind would not be able to fly, let alone explore space - etc.

Where am I going with this rant? I don't know. But I'm working on it.

[gbeenie]

Item 3: Prove God doesn't exist. Do it. Now. Don't present evidence. Evidence is not the same thing as solid proof. PROVE it. Without a shadow of a doubt. 100%.

No. It is not the unbelievers job to prove that nothing exists. The person who claims something has to prove it exists.

"The most preposterous notion that H. sapiens has ever dreamed up is that the Lord God of Creation, Shaper and Ruler of all the Universes, wants the saccharine adoration of His creatures, can be swayed by their prayers, and becomes petulant if He does not receive this flattery. Yet this absurd fantasy, without a shred of evidence to bolster it, pays all the expenses of the oldest, largest, and least productive industry in all history."

--Robert Heinlein

[gbeenie]

Item 3: Prove God doesn't exist. Do it. Now. Don't present evidence. Evidence is not the same thing as solid proof. PROVE it. Without a shadow of a doubt. 100%.

No. It is not the unbelievers job to prove that nothing exists. The person who claims something has to prove it exists.

Nothing is a something. It's a factor in our reality. Bits of our mathmatics system is based on this. I think my challenge stands.

No. It's the same reason a jury does not declare Innocence, only Guilty or Not Guilty Beyond a Reasonable Doubt. It's the prosecution, who brings the charges,  job to show guilt, the defences job is to show the evidence doesn't hold up to scrutiny.

  I would say in fairness, since believing in nothing is a far newer concept than believing in something, that proof for nothing should be presented first.

By that "logic", people should have themselves leeched, instead of going to a doctor, because using leeches came first.

And refusing to accept children's fairy tales as anything even even remotely resembling an explanation for the nature of the universe does not constitute "believing in nothing."

The majority of the population of the world believes in a higher power. You've got a larger group to convince than the other way around.

Thank you. You've just solidified the argument against sending missionaries to other countries to tell people that some new bullshit is better-tasting than their native bullshit.

Because the physical world represents the hand of God (or a God/Goddess).

IT MOST CERTAINLY DOES NOT. That you choose to view the world as the works of a dark evil supreme being (the God described in the Bible, Torah and Koran is a vicious, savage bloodthirsty murderer) is YOUR hang-up. It is "proof" of nothing, save its own existence.