Does the "worshipping Satan" stuff bother anyone else?

[Doc Steve]

Not to disagree with Doc Steve's thoughtful and evidenced posting, but if the use of "magic" pre-dates Judaism and Christianity, then didn't the Judeo-Christians PUT an undeserving context on it? As opposed to modern uses of the mythology removing the context.

I think that's what I was trying unsuccessfully to get at originally. Not supporting any practices or theologies, part of my point was that Christianity put a Satanic value on something that wasn't intrinsically Satanic in origin. Doing something terrible and worshiping Satan are two entirely different things, and as someone else pointed out -- the Jewish and Christian God had people do terrible things in His name [including sacrifices]. It's that leap that I don't get.

I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.

I wouldn't disagree with you so much as clarify a point.  Assuming that the three core Western religions are responsible for the "negative" or "Satanic" view of magic use, we would then conclude that these belief systems projected their paradigm/value system onto something that previously did not have that connotation for other groups.  That seems fair, since I think we would all agree that the Phillistines (just for example) weren't "Satanists" in any meaningful sense of the term, nor would they have considered their practices at Gath, Ashkelon, etc. "evil." 

On the other hand, we don't live in a cultural vacuum.  Magic, soothsaying, etc. have traditionally had a "Satanic" valuation and explanation in Western culture.  For modern popular culture to largely ignore this seems to be a cop-out, by and large.  In other words, I am not saying fiction and fantasy needs to stigmatize magic or pander to the Moral Majority, but to have demons and angels cluttering up the landscape (see: Charmed, Angel, etc.), while completely ignoring whether or not God and Satan even exist seems to be a little dishonest from an artistic standpoint.   

[AmandaGal]

I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.

It's pretty well known that at least Mike holds some of those beliefs.  He's been said to be "very religious" whatever that means.  Can someone be "barely religious?"    He's made references to his beliefs in several interviews.

Not that means anything to the context of the discussion.  It's possible he just does jokes like that because the majority of the public would find them funny.  I admit I laughed at his "Charmed" review in Megacheese.  Like someone said, in the context of movies alone, outside of real history, we've been led believe certain things are evil.  Witches are one of them.

I still contend that in most Christian belief systems, magic is intrinsically satanic because it does not come from Christ.  On the other hand, there's a sect of Christian "witches" who say magic comes from Christ and is therefore good, but I don't think the Bible supports that (I guess in some ways Christ did perform "magic" , which is the basis for their arguments).

I wasn't trying to pigeonhole Christians.  That is the very basis of the religion though.  The path to god is through Christ.  If you follow any other path, it's much harder (if not impossible) to serve God.   In my opinion, you can't be a Christian and not believe the intended path to God is through Christ.  Anyone who doesn't follow that intended path is at the very least taking the long way around.

[ninjacat11]

I didn't really understand it until I saw ninjacat11's post RE: ZOMG.

After reading about it, I found that apparently there is a group of Christian organizations that believe that both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings books are Satanic because they deal with the occult.

Their line of thinking is that any powers of the occult comes from Satan. Therefore if you practice the occult -- even if you don't actually worship Satan -- that means that you are sinning in the eyes of God. But it seems that their problems aren't with the characters of the books, but with the authors -- that they are trying to brainwash children into becoming agents of Satan.

I guess that has to do with what AmandaGal was saying.

Not realizing this, I mistakenly believed the Riffers were commenting on ancient religious biases [as opposed to a real modern movement]. I still say that my disconnect was not knowing if the guys were making fun of that train of thought or believed it themselves.

Wait, people were accusing Lord Of The Rings as Satanic? Isn't that kinda strange, considering Tolkien was a Catholic?

[bettertomorrowamy]

According to my religion, Catholics don't worship correctly so they might as well be worshipping Satan.

[AmandaGal]

According to my religion, Catholics don't worship correctly so they might as well be worshipping Satan.

I've actually heard that said by other Christians, because Catholicism kept a lot of traditions similar to the "old religion."

I guess you can get granular and say that if Satan is a real force, there are probably fruits (pun intended) of his trickery in all religion. So maybe we all worship Satan in some respects. 

Weird.

[trobotcrow]

Wait, people were accusing Lord Of The Rings as Satanic? Isn't that kinda strange, considering Tolkien was a Catholic?

Yup. They are against anything that uses magic. They specifically mention those two in the readings I was doing [probably because of the timing with the movies]. You could probably lump The Chronicles of Narnia in there as well, and he was writing a Christian allegory.

[Weevil Overloard]

Well, I just finished the Riff on Chamber of Secrets and the stuff that plays through the credits(which made me angry). I feel much better after reading this thread. As a Wiccan raised by other Wiccans I can say that HP doesn't lure kids into this religion, any more then D&D does.

[bettertomorrowamy]

Don't get me started on the evils of D&D....garsh.

[OmegaR!]

[RobtheBarbarian]

Where are the Cheetos!?

[ScottotD]

I find convervative/christian nutters one of the funnier things in life so I was nervous about the tone (or even my perception of the tone) Mike would take after reading this thread but I just listened to it and I think they played it up enough it was clearly ridiculous.

My best guess is that on some level, some of the MSTies are probably uncomfortable with that sort of portrayal. 

I'd be pretty suprised if Kevvin or Bill felt that way to any large degree.

I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing:  magic is evil. 

not big on homsexuals and women either.

[RoninFox]

I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing:  magic is evil. 

not big on homsexuals and women either.

They're often not too fond of each other either.

[BathTub]

Where are the Cheetos!?

Do you know that guys direct link to RiffTrax?

[bratpop]

Have religious people ever considered that magic does not, and HAS NEVER EXISTED? It's like saying "yurple is evil." What's yurple? Oh, it's a color I just made up that's a cross between yellow and purple. Sheer idiocy. In essence, since neither Satan, organized worship of Satan, or magic exist, then they are indeed the same thing. IMAGINARY. You can believe in whatever religion tells you if that floats your boat, but them inventing slander against things that they don't believe in is insane. I mean if magic is evil, why did you make it up? Just don't pretend there is magic and voila, no evil to hate. You'll get more things done in the day. Magic is a word for things people didn't understand in the middle ages. I.E. most things. Magic and witches go no further than the Salem witch trials, where people just lied so they could murder others they disliked. Magic and in fact "Satan" are excuses to hate. "Evil" is a concept that allows you to break the rules in the name of rallying against it. You can be evil as long as it's in the name of fighting evil. Notice the "good" people rarely stomp around with cardboard signs protesting real evil like terrorism or actual murder, because it's f*cking obvious. Nobody needs to point it out. But if you write a book that has a cultlike following and it stands to compete with your own cultlike following without being a part of it, it must be a secret evil that must be exposed and obliterated. Or it's just the prettier girl in the neighborhood that your husband glances at and you must burn it at the stake. I get those two mixed up.

That said, Harry Potter celebrating Christmas is a bit WTF. Unless Jesus was a wizard. *coughhintcough*

[AmandaGal]

Have religious people ever considered that magic does not, and HAS NEVER EXISTED? It's like saying "yurple is evil." What's yurple? Oh, it's a color I just made up that's a cross between yellow and purple. Sheer idiocy. In essence, since neither Satan, organized worship of Satan, or magic exist, then they are indeed the same thing. IMAGINARY. You can believe in whatever religion tells you if that floats your boat, but them inventing slander against things that they don't believe in is insane. I mean if magic is evil, why did you make it up? Just don't pretend there is magic and voila, no evil to hate. You'll get more things done in the day. Magic is a word for things people didn't understand in the middle ages. I.E. most things. Magic and witches go no further than the Salem witch trials, where people just lied so they could murder others they disliked. Magic and in fact "Satan" are excuses to hate. "Evil" is a concept that allows you to break the rules in the name of rallying against it. You can be evil as long as it's in the name of fighting evil. Notice the "good" people rarely stomp around with cardboard signs protesting real evil like terrorism or actual murder, because it's f*cking obvious. Nobody needs to point it out. But if you write a book that has a cultlike following and it stands to compete with your own cultlike following without being a part of it, it must be a secret evil that must be exposed and obliterated. Or it's just the prettier girl in the neighborhood that your husband glances at and you must burn it at the stake. I get those two mixed up.

It depends on your definition of magic.  Some Christians define it something that clearly doesn't exist, but some Christians really do protest it in the way it does exist.  Magic, in reality, is a lot like prayer, but according to Christians it is prayer to a false god.  I agree that I don't know why they'd get so upset at my praying to a false god, but they didn't "make it up."  People do practice "magick."  I would suggest they ignore it, but it's not like there are really are no "witches," they just don't ride brooms.  To say it doesn't exist is much like saying prayer doesn't exist, vigils don't exist, people don't burn candles in Catholic churchs and Hindu's don't have idols.

Good and Evil go hand in hand.  If we didn't have "evil," we'd have no excuse to do good.  If there was no Satan, we wouldn't try to get into heaven.   That's simplified, but evil does exist, it just depends on your own personal moral structure where you draw that line.  There are some things that I could never be convinced to do in a rational state of being because I think they are bad (removing irrational situations and psychosis).  Maybe someone told me those were wrong, but most things I've been told are wrong, I've thought about or tried before I realized, "yeah, those are wrong."  I think we all have some internal sense of "evil."  Your may be different than mine, so maybe evil is more subjective.  Good certainly is.