OK! As a Pagan, I MUST respond to this movie......!!!!

[RobtheBarbarian]

And we're grown ups here.. we don't need to make Nazi references. 

we do if they are relevant.  would prefer stalinism or female genital mutilation preformed by the taliban?  its the simple and classical counter to moral relativism. 

That doesn't really work if you ask a person you know thinks both are wrong (or is expected to act like both are wrong). Ask someone who believes in Stalinism or female circumcision and you'll get a different answer. That's what moral relativism is about anyway, how right and wrong have more to do with society and culture than absolute morality. The fact that we disagree over this is an example of relativism. The fact that moral relativism tampers with our picture of Nazism as absolute, unjustifiable evil doesn't make it a fallacy.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

yes we both agree, but the problem is that relativism assumes we are both right, (and both wrong at the same time) which isnt a logical assumption.  it doesnt follow that since we MERELY disagree that we are both right/wrong. 

The fact that moral relativism tampers with our picture of Nazism as absolute, unjustifiable evil doesn't make it a fallacy.

What does make it a fallacy though?  it seems like (and i apologize if you are not) you are implying that NOTHING can be said to help weaken or strengthen the argument that moral relativism is correct.  Which really begs the question why are you trying to argue your point?

[Sharktopus]

What's the name of that rule that once you fall back on citing Hitler in a debate, you should give up?

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

i forget but wiki has a nice size article on it.  I thought of it, but since i was introduced to that particular counter to that argument in my college course thats the counter i used. 

[BathTub]

What's the name of that rule that once you fall back on citing Hitler in a debate, you should give up?

Godwin's Law

[RobtheBarbarian]

yes we both agree, but the problem is that relativism assumes we are both right, (and both wrong at the same time) which isnt a logical assumption.  it doesnt follow that since we MERELY disagree that we are both right/wrong. 

The fact that moral relativism tampers with our picture of Nazism as absolute, unjustifiable evil doesn't make it a fallacy.

What does make it a fallacy though?  it seems like (and i apologize if you are not) you are implying that NOTHING can be said to help weaken or strengthen the argument that moral relativism is correct.  Which really begs the question why are you trying to argue your point?

Relativism makes the case that there is no "right" or "wrong", only personal perceptions based on cultural background and religious belief, among other things. Therefor it can't assume we are both right and wrong at the same time. Considering that there are almost as many versions of "right" in the world as there are people, it's beyond me how someone can fail to see some degree of relativism (barring religious conviction).

And since I get the impression that we both understand the concept of moral relativism, I'm only dealing with the arguements you bring up instead of starting from the bottom and outlining the debate for relativism.

We might be thinking of Reductio ad Hitlerum too. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reducto_ad_hitlerum

[Tyrant]

    Man, I always miss the good parts of these religious discussions. Darn this job and its constant interuptions!

    As a Christian, I don't agree with your religion, Randy. However, I do respect  you and it (IE: some of my friends are Wiccan) and figured at least one Pagan Riffer would step up to the plate and clarify some things in regards to this movie. I recall even mentioning to Pak as we watched it that Hollywood was doing to Paganism what it's done to Christianity, Judism, ect ect -countless- times. Between you and AmandaGal, I feel a little more educated on the subject now, and education is always a good thing. Even if it's about something I don't necessarily agree with. Ignore your naysayers. I think you had every right to start this thread/discussion.

   I'm curious to know why you would admit that it's a crazy religion to be in, and yet you stick with it though. By this, I don't mean you should abandon it, but I suppose I don't understand being part of a system if you don't respect it and yourself within it. Faith is supposed to build you up, not tear you down. If you mean that the perception of it to outsiders is crazy and silly, then you're wrong. Even as a Christian, I have nothing but respect for you and your religion and see it as an ancient,  dignified and benign belief system.

[Goshzilla]

The fundamental concept of omnipotence is flawed from the beginning. It was an idea started eons ago before real world explainations existed.  This is not to say the original creators of the omnipotence theory were stupid, or that the people at that time were stupid. They simply had no concept of logic or philosophy to engage in a serious debate of what omnipotence is. The Greeks avoided this question since they did have the belief that all gods weren't omnipotent. Now that we know it is flawed, because of the glarring logic that it presents, then nothing could ever be omnipotent.

What should have been a discarded idea of the origins of the universe was repackaged and sold off as something new, except that it wasn't really. Omnipotence is still believed today, and old world superstitions are alive as ever, it takes a certain kind of mental illness to ignore the very simple logical paradox it presents just on the mere concept.

[Heysie]

Dudes!  It's not that it made my religion look BAD.  My religion looks pretty stupid all by itself, without Hollywood's help.  I mean, I would have to be in total denial to say that Paganism doesn't look pretty damn stupid.

My point was that it is not JUST FOR WOMEN.  That was my only point.  And that the Male Cult in my religion is a pretty cool one.

But wait, just hold on a dang minute. Why do you think the movie is about your religion?   It's just some dippy thing the filmmakers made up, isn't it?  So just because THESE gals burn dudes or cut out their tongues and whatnot, doesn' t indicate that all pagans hate dudes...Or did I miss something? They don't actually refer to themselves as Wiccans, do they?

[RandyMistie]

Dudes!  It's not that it made my religion look BAD.  My religion looks pretty stupid all by itself, without Hollywood's help.  I mean, I would have to be in total denial to say that Paganism doesn't look pretty damn stupid.

My point was that it is not JUST FOR WOMEN.  That was my only point.  And that the Male Cult in my religion is a pretty cool one.

But wait, just hold on a dang minute. Why do you think the movie is about your religion?   It's just some dippy thing the filmmakers made up, isn't it?  So just because THESE gals burn dudes or cut out their tongues and whatnot, doesn' t indicate that all pagans hate dudes...Or did I miss something? They don't actually refer to themselves as Wiccans, do they?

Well, in truth, there are many similarities.  Naturally, Ellen Burnsyn's little speech about the Earth Mother Goddess is pretty much true to (and the basis of) my religion, and there is a great deal of antecdotal evidence that pre-christian pagans did in fact burn people alive in giant wicker men, hence the 20th/21st century tradition of The Burning Man in the Nevada desert, which is really just an excuse for a bunch of naked, aging, hippies to roll around in the mud on drugs and have sex with strangers... but I digress...

And about me saying my religion is silly, yes, I own up to that.  It works for me, but I would never deny to any outsider that it wasn't a little wierd and I never push my beliefs on anyone else.  Hence, I deprecate the tradition in an attempt to show people that if you take anything you believe too seriously, and can't make fun of it, you are in danger of becoming a fanatic.  Just like if you take yourself too seriously you are in danger of being a very lonely, angry person.

So, yeah, my religion is silly as all hell, and I got no problem telling people that.  But, for me, (only for me) it is powerful and grounding and a peaceful place from which to view the Universe as it passes by.

[Pak-Man]

Wait a second...

You're saying Pagans DON'T hatch elaborate schemes to lure men willingly onto their man-hating island by way of faking a car wreck and sending someone out to have their child and then send them out on wild goose chases for days before finally luring them into giant wicker sculptures so they can burn them alive for their honey harvests!?

Well, I'm stickin' with God, then. ;^)

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

Wait a second...

You're saying Pagans DON'T hatch elaborate schemes to lure men willingly onto their man-hating island by way of faking a car wreck and sending someone out to have their child and then send them out on wild goose chases for days before finally luring them into giant wicker sculptures so they can burn them alive for their honey harvests!?

Well, I'm stickin' with God, then. ;^)

Maybe they do when they are bored?  Kinda like roasting ants with a magnifying glass kind of bordom release?

To Randy, don't kick yourself in the head if a thread you create goes bonkers.  You have every right to educate people about your religious beliefs... well as long as it isn't illegally.  Don't hold yourself accountable for what I or any other poster do.  Only hold yourself accountable for your own misdeeds.

[AmandaGal]

Wait a second...

You're saying Pagans DON'T hatch elaborate schemes to lure men willingly onto their man-hating island by way of faking a car wreck and sending someone out to have their child and then send them out on wild goose chases for days before finally luring them into giant wicker sculptures so they can burn them alive for their honey harvests!?

Well, I'm stickin' with God, then. ;^)

I think he is saying that not all Pagans do...you should come over and we'll talk about it.  [plaintive blink] Crap, nevermind, you're married and soiled and all.

I think any moron who thinks ANY movie is an accurate representation of any religion deserves to be shot.  That'd be like me claiming I knew all about Catholicism because I had watched "Sister Act" or "The Flying Nun."  It's a movie.  Of course it's not accurate.

[RobtheBarbarian]

Do you remember the Irish nationalist movement that spawned as a direct result of Braveheart? The effect that a melodramatic movie can have on stupid people is horrifying.

[Reductio_ad_absurdum]

Do you remember the Irish nationalist movement that spawned as a direct result of Braveheart? The effect that a melodramatic movie can have on stupid people is horrifying.

I don't know about you, but stupid people horrify me without a reason being from a movie.