THE PHANTOM MENACE - YES!!

[AvestheFox]

You feel, dirty? I bought Phantom Menace on VHS when it came out. AND it was the special boxed edition with an art book and "collectible" lithograph because it was the only way to get the widescreen tape. And then I bought the movie again on DVD. And how did Lucas thank me for buying it again? By making the fakakta podrace even LONGER. Thanks, George. You shouldn't have. REALLY.

But yeah, the Lucas bashing gets a little out of hand. He may be a micro-managing tyrant when it comes to his little space opera, but who here wouldn't want to exert cromplete creative control over their beloved cash cow? And by all accounts, he does seem to be a down-to-earth family man, and generally good guy. I'd have a beer with him. (But not too many, 'cause I might just say something regrettable.)

Very well put, Sharky ^_^

[Sharktopus]

I'm just proud I got to use the word "fakakta." I use far more Yiddish than an Irish boy should be allowed.

[LadyKenobi]

And by all accounts, he does seem to be a down-to-earth family man, and generally good guy.

I really don't think anybody here has said anything to suggest that he isn't.  I don't think he's a bad guy, just suddenly batshit insane.  As I mentioned, Mike and Kevin were pretty dang harsh on him, and there hasn't been a tremendous amount of complaining about that.

I was let down by TPM, but there was still stuff to enjoy about it.  Where I think most of the fan base is angry with Lucas is when he started messing with the original trilogy.  Then he just started doing things that didn't even make any sense.   It wasn't a matter of taste or clinging to the old films, because who's going to complain about better sound or crisper images? It was that some of the changes just didn't mesh logically with the storyline or fundamentally altered the characters. 

It kind of reminds me of this story I heard about Michaelangelo-- that he came roaring into his studio one day and started smashing his own work because he didn't think it was any good.  His students finally tackled him and held him down to save the art.   

[PlayMSTie]

Wow, that's a great story. 

I can understand how Lucas deeply offends people who really really really care about his work. I've felt the same way, not about him -- I don't have that emotional investment with his films -- but about other writers who I've felt have betrayed their own vision. Dorothy L. Sayers (I'm writing my graduate thesis on  her, so I go around quoting her at everyone I know ) says there are artistic sins just as there are moral sins. I believe that.

[Pak-Man]

I can understand how Lucas deeply offends people who really really really care about his work.

See here's the big paradox of fandom that I could never quite grok. Lucas created and presented to the world a universe. Through the years, a few generations have come to know and love this universe, which is a well-crafted, deep, vivid universe that excites the imagination and brings a sense of wonder to the kid in us all. But it's still his universe. It's him, not the fans, that get to decide whether there should be klutzy pidgen-English speaking aliens wandering about deep within it (And with a universe as vast as the Star Wars universe, it seems unlikely that there wouldn't be at least one, probably SEVERAL annoying characters like Jar Jar wandering around it.) Lucas' vision is still Lucas' vision. If the fans don't like Lucas' vision after they see a bit more of it, that isn't some horrible sin on Lucas' part. It's just a matter of taste and the occasionally painful realization that you don't like EVERYTHING about the Star Wars universe. And really, the universe is so big it's OK. It seems like the ones who profess to love it the most who are the most willing to throw it all out the window over one little thing they don't like.

Furthermore, if you're writing correctly, you're not concerned about what the masses are going to think. You're concerned about shaping the universe however you feel it needs to be shaped. If it catches the hearts of the masses, all the better. Lucas wasn't thinking about the masses, and more power to him! He was concerned with creating his story and create his story, he did! Everyone else is free to like or not like it. :^)

[Sheik Yerbouti]

Furthermore, if you're writing correctly, you're not concerned about what the masses are going to think. You're concerned about shaping the universe however you feel it needs to be shaped. If it catches the hearts of the masses, all the better. Lucas wasn't thinking about the masses, and more power to him! He was concerned with creating his story and create his story, he did! Everyone else is free to like or not like it. :^)

So making a kid-friendly, catch-phrase spouting alien and plastering it's ugly mug on every conceivable piece of merchandise was part of George's artistic vision?  Really?  He wasn't thinking about selling toys to those unwashed masses?  How about the cute lil' battle droids who say "roger roger" all the time?  Sorry but I'm not buying it.  Sure, Lucas had a vision for the prequels and you can see what he was trying to achieve with the story arc but result was poorly executed.  If he had just handed the writing and directing chores to more qualified individuals, we may have gotten some good movies.  Lucas could have settled for Executive Producer and "Created By" credits and we'd all be calling him a genius.

And about this universe he created... The original films sparked the imaginations of many people from my generation who were lucky enough to see them the first time around in the theater, but all that Lucas did was provide an excellent framework, not the universe itself.  There were many, many blank spots and in the years after Return Of The Jedi the people that were inspired by those movies filled in the blank spots and made a real universe out of it.  Hell, I used to have the original Star Wars role playing game.  I remember that the excellent alien races supplement had the names and histories all worked out for every alien race shown in the Star Wars cantina scene.  You can't tell me all that backstory came from the brain of George Lucas.  People wanted to know more about those cool looking aliens so they invented their own stories.  There's nothing wrong with that.  Star Wars existed only in the minds of the fans for many years so by the time he came back to it his universe looked much different than when he had left it last. And personally I think that when George Lucas finally revisited the Star Wars universe, his imagination was pretty well tapped out.

Here's the best analogy I can come up with on a moment's notice.  Imagine that a man builds a beautiful house and allows you to live in it for five years and decorate it any way you see fit.  After five years, you've got the house exactly the way you like it.  Then the owner comes back and paints the entire thing mauve.  Who are you to complain?  It's his house, after all. 

Anyway, that's just the opinion of a disgruntled ex-Star Wars fan.

[dlobro1080]

I can understand how Lucas deeply offends people who really really really care about his work.

See here's the big paradox of fandom that I could never quite grok. Lucas created and presented to the world a universe. Through the years, a few generations have come to know and love this universe, which is a well-crafted, deep, vivid universe that excites the imagination and brings a sense of wonder to the kid in us all. But it's still his universe. It's him, not the fans, that get to decide whether there should be klutzy pidgen-English speaking aliens wandering about deep within it (And with a universe as vast as the Star Wars universe, it seems unlikely that there wouldn't be at least one, probably SEVERAL annoying characters like Jar Jar wandering around it.) Lucas' vision is still Lucas' vision. If the fans don't like Lucas' vision after they see a bit more of it, that isn't some horrible sin on Lucas' part. It's just a matter of taste and the occasionally painful realization that you don't like EVERYTHING about the Star Wars universe. And really, the universe is so big it's OK. It seems like the ones who profess to love it the most who are the most willing to throw it all out the window over one little thing they don't like.

Furthermore, if you're writing correctly, you're not concerned about what the masses are going to think. You're concerned about shaping the universe however you feel it needs to be shaped. If it catches the hearts of the masses, all the better. Lucas wasn't thinking about the masses, and more power to him! He was concerned with creating his story and create his story, he did! Everyone else is free to like or not like it. :^)

That's all true, but let's be fair.  (Before we start let it be known that I'd like to think I'm pro-Lucas if anything; like you said, they're his movies and they've given me a lot of joy).  When he first tinkered with the Classic Trilogy, he said it was because technology had forced him to make concessions on STAR WARS.  Okay, fine.  So he expanded Mos Eisley, add the Jabba scene.  He also made some wacky fixes, like Han vs. Greedo.  But then he announced he'd be doing the same to Empire and Jedi.  Okay, fine.  But then he kept tinkering with them, and adding things, and adding things, and adding things.  Where I start to object is placing Hayden Christiansen into JEDI, or altering the scense in EMPIRE b/w Vader and the Emperor.  Obviously, these weren't changes made due to technical limitations in the late 70s/early 80s.  And I think he grossly contradicted himself on his original reason for going back to alter the films, which was to match his "original vision."

The problems with TPM and ATOC, for me anyway, are purely of a film quality nature.  Not because I disagree with how he decided to tell his story -- they're his films -- it's just that they're pretty poorly made.  TPM has these long stretches of NOTHING, with way too much exposition.  Remember in STAR WARS, when in 10 seconds Moff Tarkin says "The remnants of the Old Republic have been swept away.  The region governors will maintain control." or whatever?  In TPM, that would've been decompressed into 45 minutes, I guarantee, including boring scenes in the Senate and commlink chats, etc.

REVENGE OF THE SITH got it right.  Smart action and human drama.  It's up there with EMPIRE.

[J-Proof]

Just to feed this Star Wars Prequelogy fangasm of debate - Lucas has been quoted as saying that the ONLY reason he made the prequels was for financial stability regarding his future endeavors.

To me - the prequels were less artistic and more of a marketing ploy for the above reason. The vacuum-droids, cutesy little kid, cuddly gungans, and hot Padme were all a part of that "how do I make money?" idea.

Now - is Lucas inanse? Probably not because he made millions.... But was his film a "success?" That depends on your definition of success. To me, the films cheapened the universe by adding bacterial force germs, and a weakling Vader. Did I love the SW universe less after the prequels? YES - absolutely... Midichloreans were all it took.

The angsty statements made by our boardlings in this thread are being made mostly for the same reason that /I/ am angsty toward the prequels - I felt like a great masterpiece had too many brushtrokes added onto it, which spoiled its artistic effect. Did we NEED all the politics? I don't think so.... Character-driven was the story with the original trilogy, and that wa DEFINTIELY nto the story with the prequels.

So - that being said - the creativity of Lucas is wonderful - the man has talent. But he utilized it, imho, the wrong way for his prequels. Such creative farting is okay for Ocean's 12, but STAR WARS??? FLIPPIN' STAR WARS???

[Argo-Puppy]

Just for the record, does anyone know if Padme, Amidala or whatever her name is was supposed to be 10 years older than Anakin?

Also, was she supposed to give birth six months early because there was NO way she was nine months pregnant with twins.

[J-Proof]

hehehe.... yeah..... I feel that argument

Anyway - She was /supposed/ to be 14 during TPM, while Ani was /supposed/ to be 10.

And yeah - that was a quick nine months (unless the distance between eps 2 and 3 was several months long)

[dignan]

I can tell you the exact moment George Lucas lost me:  Luke's girly-man scream as he nobly plummeted to his death instead of joining Darth Vader in the re-release of Empire Strikes Back.  The removal of that from the DVD release was definitely a plus, but that shouldn't have been a required repair in the first place.  I'm glad the original theatrical releases finally got to DVD, just because, yeah, it's Lucas' universe, yeah, he can do whatever the hell he wants to repair and restore and revise and revamp and rework and remake the movies he made, but the movies that I saw growing up as a kid are a part of history.  For all the "faults" and "flaws" of the original work, I think they should be preserved as is. 

 

[Argo-Puppy]

hehehe.... yeah..... I feel that argument

Anyway - She was /supposed/ to be 14 during TPM, while Ani was /supposed/ to be 10.

And yeah - that was a quick nine months (unless the distance between eps 2 and 3 was several months long)

Ohhh okay. Well I feel better about the age difference thing. For the pregnancy thing, no I was referring to the last of the prequels when Anakin chokes her because he thinks she's against him. Her tummy was so tiny! In the real world, I doubt Anakin would have been able to reach her throat without some serious smooshing of little babies.

[darthvedder81]

hehehe.... yeah..... I feel that argument

Anyway - She was /supposed/ to be 14 during TPM, while Ani was /supposed/ to be 10.

And yeah - that was a quick nine months (unless the distance between eps 2 and 3 was several months long)

SITH takes place roughly two years after CLONES.

I'm enjoying all of these insanely nitpicky complaints about the movies. My God, could any other film stand up to this kind of scrutiny? Probably not since no other film series is so insanely huge and all encompassing as the mighty Star Wars saga. I mean nobody gives a crap about plot inconsistencies in the "Fantastic Four".

These are fairy-tale space operas that feature prominently 8 ft ape men wearing bandoliers. Maybe you could have some fun and quit expecting perfect logic in every mundane detail?

[J-Proof]

hehehe.... yeah..... I feel that argument

Anyway - She was /supposed/ to be 14 during TPM, while Ani was /supposed/ to be 10.

And yeah - that was a quick nine months (unless the distance between eps 2 and 3 was several months long)

SITH takes place roughly two years after CLONES.

I'm enjoying all of these insanely nitpicky complaints about the movies. My God, could any other film stand up to this kind of scrutiny? Probably not since no other film series is so insanely huge and all encompassing as the mighty Star Wars saga. I mean nobody gives a crap about plot inconsistencies in the "Fantastic Four".

These are fairy-tale space operas that feature prominently 8 ft ape men wearing bandoliers. Maybe you could have some fun and quit expecting perfect logic in every mundane detail?

Perhaps you should pay attention to my post rather than shoot back defensivley. I stated what the two characters' ages were, and mentioned that the time distance between 2 and 3 needed to be considered. Now - as for Fantastic Four, that movie was in no way as revolutionary or special as Star Wars was to our cinema. So if we hold movies with the title Star Wars on them to a high level of scrutiny, then I believe it to be justified.

Chillax brothuh' - discussing movies is why we're here, and Star Wars was just riffed for EVERY reason people have pointed out in this forum - may there be long life and peace between all of us =).

Here's a bunch of other inconsistencies I found:
Why couldn't the force be used to.....
1.) Stop the gigantic hunk of aircraft they were in from crashing on Coruscant after rescuing the Chancellor?
2.) Knock a bunch of little spidery droids off the side of Ben's spaceship (opening scene)? I mean - the force can be used to get proton torpedoes into a two-meter shaft....
3.) Hoist yourself /up/ an elevator shaft while carrying some dudes on your back?
4.) Determine that Padme had twins? Should've seen that one coming....

When you think about it - there's a lot of those examples throughout all three prequels.

[dlobro1080]

>>
Here's a bunch of other inconsistencies I found:
Why couldn't the force be used to.....
1.) Stop the gigantic hunk of aircraft they were in from crashing on Coruscant after rescuing the Chancellor?
2.) Knock a bunch of little spidery droids off the side of Ben's spaceship (opening scene)? I mean - the force can be used to get proton torpedoes into a two-meter shaft....
3.) Hoist yourself /up/ an elevator shaft while carrying some dudes on your back?
4.) Determine that Padme had twins? Should've seen that one coming....

When you think about it - there's a lot of those examples throughout all three prequels.<<


Sorry but these are the criticisms that mean either A) you're being too nitpicky or B) the movie isn't working for you.  In Peter Jackson's King Kong, why doesn't the ice in Central Park break when Kong is sliding all over it?  Because it's a movie, and it's going to take liberties with our rules in order to achieve excitement and elicit emotions.  If you ask questions like that, the movie's lost you.  In SITH, the answer to all the above is that the movie would be pretty boring if the Jedi could forsee and deal with any and all problems.  Should Anakin have been able to force-push the Buzz droids away?  Maybe, but I never considered it.  The scene was too thrilling for me to think about it otherwise.