In the Harry Potter Riffs, they make numerous jokes about how they worship Satan.
Now I am not only non-religious, but I am certainly not Christian -- so my reservations have nothing to do with Religiosity but with History.
Pagans, and subsequently Wiccans, were NOT followers of Satan. When Christians were working hard at spreading the religion, one of their methods of gaining converts was by making up untruths about other religions [ancient "Swiftboating", if you will]. They spread the rumor about it being synonymous with Satanism -- but how can a religion that doesn't believe in Satan worship Satan?
I know they're just jokes, but they're inaccurate. If they DID worship Satan, I'd have no issue with them.
Am I crazy? Does this bother anyone else?
As a Pagan, I can say these jokes made me laugh. The "witches" and wizards in Harry Potter are not Wiccans or Pagans in any way, they're the literary leftovers of various fairy tales and folklore. These jokes, even if they weren't intended as such, seem to me to be mocking the Christian stereotype of "everyone who doesn't believe like I do is evil" more than anything else. That could just be me though.
Yeah, I saw it as more of a jab at the people who thought the movie was Satanic than an actual statement that the movie was Satanic.
Quote from: Pak-Man on August 30, 2008, 08:06:36 PM
Yeah, I saw it as more of a jab at the people who thought the movie was Satanic than an actual statement that the movie was Satanic.
Yeah, all the church groups that protested the books and movies for teaching "the devil's work" to children.
Heh, you just keep telling yourself they don't worship me.
*grants dark powers to a little boy with glasses.*
Now run along little Henry... or Harold... whatever the Hell your name is. Go learn the dark arts so you can become part of the Army of Hell!
Well to be fair, I do worship Al Pachino.
Quote from: Satan on August 30, 2008, 10:40:56 PM
Heh, you just keep telling yourself they don't worship me.
*grants dark powers to a little boy with glasses.*
Now run along little Henry... or Harold... whatever the Hell your name is. Go learn the dark arts so you can become part of the Army of Hell!
Well, the "broom-rugby" matches that went on forever clearly were the work of the devil.
Quote from: RoninFox on August 30, 2008, 08:20:37 PM
Quote from: Pak-Man on August 30, 2008, 08:06:36 PM
Yeah, I saw it as more of a jab at the people who thought the movie was Satanic than an actual statement that the movie was Satanic.
Yeah, all the church groups that protested the books and movies for teaching "the devil's work" to children.
Agreed. And since my ex-wife is one of those kooks who tried (and failed) to keep the Harry Potter books and movies from our kids because they "glamorize withcraft," I took great personal delight in those jokes.
It's your friendly forum pagan here saying the jokes don't offend me in the least. They're funny. I laugh. I don't take it too seriously.
As for one of your other points, ironically enough, Satanist (the Anton LaVey type) don't believe in Satan. Think about that for a while and let your brain explode. :)
I guess if the pagans here don't have a problem, I shouldn't.
It's just that inconsistencies seem to bother me more than most. It reminds me of the MST3k episode "Space Mutiny". They made a joke that the special effects [which were taken from the original "Battlestar Galactica" movie] were done by "Industrial Lights and Morons" -- when the team that made them were the same team that worked on Star Wars. So that joke STILL bothers me...
It just seems like the kind of thing they would make fun of someone else doing.
But I guess I could see the point that maybe they're making fun of all the ultra-Christian organizations that believe that Harry Potter is satanic -- but to me it just looks like it perpetuates the stereotype.
I always like how educational MST3k [and by extent, Rifftrax] is, so I tend to be a little pickier with the jokes that they make.
I'm against Satan worshipping! There....I said it.
Quote from: AmandaGal on August 31, 2008, 07:18:34 AM
As for one of your other points, ironically enough, Satanist (the Anton LaVey type) don't believe in Satan. Think about that for a while and let your brain explode. :)
Huh? Then.... he.... what?
I'm not a Satanist, so I'm not the best to speak on it. I've read the Satanic Bible, but that's been a while back. All I know is that the official church of Satan holds no god or demon other than self. It's basic belief is the glorification of the individual. They actually considering worshiping a real devil an acceptance of Christian ideology (because if you believe in a real devil, that means you have to believe in the Christian god by default) and won't tolerate it.
I am of the understanding that they use the term "Satan" because it's a reference to his literary portrayal as a fellow who was really out for his glorification and lived in the moment. Also because they believe their way of thinking is directly opposed to Christianity. Perhaps it was for shock value.
So, in general they're assholes who only care about themselves and only care about today*, but I know plenty of non-Satanists like that too. Actually, the biggest dickweed like that I know is Baptist who goes to church every Sunday and leads a youth group, etc. So, being an ass isn't a Satanist thing. They just have a good excuse for it.
I kid...also accordingly, it's normally in best interest of self to play nice with others. So, being a Satanist doesn't automatically = asshole.
Quote from: trobotcrow on August 31, 2008, 09:24:45 AM
It's just that inconsistencies seem to bother me more than most. It reminds me of the MST3k episode "Space Mutiny". They made a joke that the special effects [which were taken from the original "Battlestar Galactica" movie] were done by "Industrial Lights and Morons" -- when the team that made them were the same team that worked on Star Wars. So that joke STILL bothers me...
Well, think of a special effects team consisting of one guy looking at Battlestar Galactica and saying "We can steal that...and that...and lets grab that shot" and it's easy to call them morons. ;D Hope that helps.
Quote from: AmandaGal on August 31, 2008, 01:40:36 PM
I'm not a Satanist, so I'm not the best to speak on it. I've read the Satanic Bible, but that's been a while back. All I know is that the official church of Satan holds no god or demon other than self. It's basic belief is the glorification of the individual. They actually considering worshiping a real devil an acceptance of Christian ideology (because if you believe in a real devil, that means you have to believe in the Christian god by default) and won't tolerate it.
I am of the understanding that they use the term "Satan" because it's a reference to his literary portrayal as a fellow who was really out for his glorification and lived in the moment. Also because they believe their way of thinking is directly opposed to Christianity. Perhaps it was for shock value.
So, in general they're assholes who only care about themselves and only care about today*, but I know plenty of non-Satanists like that too. Actually, the biggest dickweed like that I know is Baptist who goes to church every Sunday and leads a youth group, etc. So, being an ass isn't a Satanist thing. They just have a good excuse for it.
I kid...also accordingly, it's normally in best interest of self to play nice with others. So, being a Satanist doesn't automatically = asshole.
Interesting...... thank you for that.
As a sheltered Catholic, I really have no idea what others are thinking.
You guys are just making fun of my thread arn't you! ;)
I wasn't bothered by the riffs themselves (they were quite funny at the beginning). I just thought they over did them. Which stands out all the more because they usually are so good at avoiding that.
Quote from: Darth Geek on September 01, 2008, 08:09:31 PM
I wasn't bothered by the riffs themselves (they were quite funny at the beginning). I just thought they over did them. Which stands out all the more because they usually are so good at avoiding that.
That's what I thought, started out as a funny dig at the people that try to ban Harry Potter but got over used by the end.
I think maybe one or two of those would be good, but harping on something everyone who didn't try to ban HP for agrees on is a bit much. Agreed that its fairly obvious that they're riffing the people who thought it was so, and not saying that HP was demonic or anything.
Except they were funny. I was particularly amused by Bill's reading of, "Of Course! Satan! Duuuh!"
You know, this is the second thread to bring up these kinds of concerns. Anyone remember RandyMistie?
This time around I have the sense not to pick any fights over it, though.
It was just a question, to see what people thought.
It bothered me not out of any religiosity, but out of historical inaccuracy.
I can't speak for the other thread, but I would certainly hope nothing in this thread would be worth fighting over.
What historical inaccuracies??
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
They were very inaccurate about the true history of Voldemort. They misspelled his name, got his nationality wrong, and it turns out he didn't hate "non-magic" people as much as a certain chosen people of Israel.
Quote from: RoninFox on September 03, 2008, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
They were very inaccurate about the true history of Voldemort. They misspelled his name, got his nationality wrong, and it turns out he didn't hate "non-magic" people as much as a certain chosen people of Israel.
That's a joke.
Quote from: RoninFox on September 03, 2008, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
They were very inaccurate about the true history of Voldemort. They misspelled his name, got his nationality wrong, and it turns out he didn't hate "non-magic" people as much as a certain chosen people of Israel.
In fact, Voldemort really did a lot of good. He stabilized the economy, created a national highway system....
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: RoninFox on September 03, 2008, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
They were very inaccurate about the true history of Voldemort. They misspelled his name, got his nationality wrong, and it turns out he didn't hate "non-magic" people as much as a certain chosen people of Israel.
That's a joke.
Bravo, detective. You are too clever for us naughty people.
Quote from: RoninFox on September 03, 2008, 05:31:40 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:27:39 PM
Quote from: RoninFox on September 03, 2008, 05:26:21 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
They were very inaccurate about the true history of Voldemort. They misspelled his name, got his nationality wrong, and it turns out he didn't hate "non-magic" people as much as a certain chosen people of Israel.
That's a joke.
Bravo, detective. You are too clever for us naughty people.
Just so no Potter fans are shattered.
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
I think he means the whole "paganism = satan worship" thing, in which case he's equating the kind of modern paganism that gets those kinds of accusations with actual historical paganism, which is an ironic kind of historical inaccuracy in itself. But I'm not doubting his sincerity or anything.
Quote from: RobtheBarbarian on September 03, 2008, 05:40:29 PM
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 03, 2008, 05:20:22 PM
What historical inaccuracies??
I think he means the whole "paganism = satan worship" thing, in which case he's equating the kind of modern paganism that gets those kinds of accusations with actual historical paganism, which is an ironic kind of historical inaccuracy in itself. But I'm not doubting his sincerity or anything.
Historically speaking, were there satan worshippers?
Actually, I was talking about ancient paganism, and how in order to spread Christianity the followers worked to either usurp it or stomp it out entirely in an attempt to spread their own religion [i.e. turning the pagan solstice tree into the Christmas Tree, or deeming pagans satanists because they did not worship Jesus].
Wicca, which is a modern version of paganism, also gets compared to Satanism -- and people were suggesting that the Rifftrax comments might have been a reflection of this line of thinking as opposed to an affirmation of it. I am not Christian, Pagan, Wiccan, Satanic, or even a fan of Harry Potter. One of the reasons I loved MST3k [and by extension, Rifftrax] was because of how erudite the cast was. Because of the things I've studied, I had worried that these comments were more the latter than the former.
For example -- I had done a large amount of research into the true stories that were woven together through verbal storytelling into now famous folk tales, and one such topic was the creation of the Merlin figure as Wizard. Apparently, those branded as witches and wizards would have been more akin to holistic healers or primitive doctors than what they've grown into in legends. In a time where even the practitioners had little understanding of the science behind their craft, they were often branded as agents of the devil.
I was looking at the branding of pagans as satanists, which certainly must be the source of that similar thinking with regards to wiccans. What didn't occur to me, perhaps because of the sheer number of references to it or my remoteness with regards to modern Christians speaking out against Harry Potter, was that perhaps the guys were mocking people who think that Harry Potter and anything that speaks of magic is satanic.
My original point was that I thought the Rifftrax guys were perpetuating this belief and wondered what others thought.
Quote from: trobotcrow on September 03, 2008, 10:40:14 PM
My original point was that I thought the Rifftrax guys were perpetuating this belief and wondered what others thought.
I think that the people who buy this riff either already know better, don't care or aren't going to be convinced otherwise by Nelson and Co. I've always assumed that the misunderstanding of Wicca as being Satanic is due more to garden variety fearfulness of the unfamiliar than an age-old smear campaign. Either way, ancient paganism is dead and relatively safe in it's obscurity and Wicca... well, I try not to think about Wicca.
(https://forum.rifftrax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fi41.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fe276%2Fdiamondback88%2Fthemoreyouknow.jpg&hash=36479837ef8adb3e9d194ad12ee140499cabcf70)
As a once conservative Christian who's gone over to the liberal (open-minded) side, once I actually saw the first movie and then read the books, I realized that Harry Potter was mere fantasy, not a glorification of real witchcraft or paganism. The Satan jokes bothered me a little at first, but then I just chalked it up to making fun of the idea of this fantasy being Satanic. If it had been a one- or two-shot joke, I might not have realized that they were being facetious with the Satan comments.
Quote from: Pak-Man on August 30, 2008, 08:06:36 PM
Yeah, I saw it as more of a jab at the people who thought the movie was Satanic than an actual statement that the movie was Satanic.
I haven't seen this riff, but I am guessing that it's a jab at the "ZOMG SATANIC HARRY POTTER" crowd.
If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls. Right? So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court? According to their religion YOU ARE. They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided. If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites. Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.
Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either. Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty. Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power. Christians didn't invent that.
We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan. Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself. And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts. It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is.
Quote from: AmandaGal on September 07, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls. Right?
Who do they worship in Harry Potter? I have the books but haven't read them, but from the movies it would seem to be implied that they are Christian (celebrating Christmas and such).
I think the real mindset is anyone that doesn't belive the Bible is a direct literal quote from God is a Satanist. It lets them lump all kinds of stuff into that category...
The witches in the Harry Potter verse are more akin to mutants (a la the X-men) because a person has to be BORN with the ability to use magic. Also, it shows "magic" as having a set of rules and laws that they learn. So it is more an extended area of physics, just one that muggles are not able to access.
In the real world, people would have to sell their soul to the Devil or some such thing to be able to have magical powers. At least, in the Christian view, anyway.
So these things are entirely different. I agree with you, Marty:
QuoteI think the real mindset is anyone that doesn't belive the Bible is a direct literal quote from God is a Satanist. It lets them lump all kinds of stuff into that category...
I wasn't talking Harry Potter. I was replying to trobotcrow robot's post on September 3, where he talked about real life Wiccans and ancient pagans, not Harry Potter.
Harry Potter is a kid's book. You could just as easily say C.S. Lewis' narnia series preaches Satanism (he writes about magic wardrobes, creatures and powers), but he is well known for being a Christian apologetics. What about the Star Wars series? Those guys are worshiping nanites ;)
They are fantasy. No religion involved. I agree.
I didn't really understand it until I saw ninjacat11's post RE: ZOMG.
After reading about it, I found that apparently there is a group of Christian organizations that believe that both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings books are Satanic because they deal with the occult.
Their line of thinking is that any powers of the occult comes from Satan. Therefore if you practice the occult -- even if you don't actually worship Satan -- that means that you are sinning in the eyes of God. But it seems that their problems aren't with the characters of the books, but with the authors -- that they are trying to brainwash children into becoming agents of Satan.
I guess that has to do with what AmandaGal was saying.
Not realizing this, I mistakenly believed the Riffers were commenting on ancient religious biases [as opposed to a real modern movement]. I still say that my disconnect was not knowing if the guys were making fun of that train of thought or believed it themselves.
Quote from: AmandaGal on September 07, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls. Right? So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court? According to their religion YOU ARE. They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided. If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites. Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.
Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either. Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty. Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power. Christians didn't invent that.
We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan. Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself. And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts. It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is.
Try not to lump all Christians in the closed-minded, modern dogma. I know that's what you see and hear overwhelmingly in the media and on the airwaves, but not all who believe in Christ are so small-minded. The way I look at it, this is what I was led to believe and whatever else I have learned since my mainstream upbringing, I'm always led back to the core of those beliefs. The legalism of mainstream Christianity is nothing more than a mask for personal spite and hatred more often than not. One thing I do know is that I can never know the mind of God or even fathom all of what God wants for the world. So if others are led to other religions and are doing "good" (not by following laws, but by helping others, not harming them), then I have no real beef with them. I am not the judge.
That said, I always smile when I see the "reason for the season" stuff during Christmas. We don't know when Jesus was really born, not down to the the day, anyway, and Christmas was a hijacking of a pagan holiday. Same with Easter. I still celebrate the birth and death of Jesus at those times, but I also recognize the historical origin of the holidays (and the irony therein).
Quote from: MSTJedi on September 09, 2008, 06:19:11 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on September 07, 2008, 07:35:36 AM
If you really want to examine things by a Christian mindset, yes worshiping someone other than Jesus Christ is indeed falling prey to Satan and the traps he sets to win souls. Right? So how are they "wrong" for thinking you're in Satan's court? According to their religion YOU ARE. They don't have to be intolerant about (hate the sin, not the sinner), but they do have to think that your religious beliefs are misguided. If they thought anything else, they'd be hypocrites. Granted, that's different than actually worshiping Satan and plotting to do evil, and some don't believe you're going to hell for such a thing (where you would if you worshiped Satan)...but I digress.
Yes, history has the Christian church doing "wrong" things, but ancient pagans weren't innocent either. Ancient Paganism was pretty violent in it's beliefs too and some things done in the names of the gods wasn't pretty. Religion/Gods have always been used as an excuse for power. Christians didn't invent that.
We all need to have a better sense of humor about these things, just like I do when people assume I'm a fluffy bunny airhead when I tell them I'm Pagan. Nobody puts up a Christmas tree to make me feel bad about myself. And actually, Christmas and Yule (by design or by God's will) are very similar concepts. It makes sense to celebrate them both in December, just like it does to celebrate Ostara/Easter together...no matter what the historic precedence is.
Try not to lump all Christians in the closed-minded, modern dogma. I know that's what you see and hear overwhelmingly in the media and on the airwaves, but not all who believe in Christ are so small-minded. The way I look at it, this is what I was led to believe and whatever else I have learned since my mainstream upbringing, I'm always led back to the core of those beliefs. The legalism of mainstream Christianity is nothing more than a mask for personal spite and hatred more often than not. One thing I do know is that I can never know the mind of God or even fathom all of what God wants for the world. So if others are led to other religions and are doing "good" (not by following laws, but by helping others, not harming them), then I have no real beef with them. I am not the judge.
That said, I always smile when I see the "reason for the season" stuff during Christmas. We don't know when Jesus was really born, not down to the the day, anyway, and Christmas was a hijacking of a pagan holiday. Same with Easter. I still celebrate the birth and death of Jesus at those times, but I also recognize the historical origin of the holidays (and the irony therein).
Well said. I know I'm occasionally guilty of lumping a lot of people together like that, but I try and label things as clearly when I complain that I'm not talking about, for example "Christians" but that I'm talking about "closed minded people" "crazy fundamentalists" etc. Those can be of any faith.
Personally, I think it is a lot more complicated than that.
Regardless of their personal beliefs or backgrounds, it is obvious that most of the MST3K crew were very familiar with conventional Christendom, particularly Lutheranism. (I think it's called "living in Minnesota.")
While a lot of the "satanism" cracks are likely sarcastic or directed at people who attacked the Harry Potter series, the MSTies have a long track record with this sort of humor. That is, magic = black magic, satanism, etc. (See: A Touch of Satan, Manos, etc. ) I don't think it is necessarily a coincidence.
Additionally, Mike makes several comments along these lines in Movie Megacheese. I forget the movie he was trashing, but he made the comment that it was a farce to include Satan in a fictional universe while completely omitting God.
My best guess is that on some level, some of the MSTies are probably uncomfortable with that sort of portrayal. That is, by depicting things like magic and demons in morally neutral terms, current popular culture makes these sort of things "OK" by completely robbing them of their context. That is, television series and movies like Harry Potter, Buffy, Charmed, etc. completely whitewash all of the religious elements out of the story to appease various groups. The heroes are "good," but in reference to what? Vampires are "bad," but why? Is if because they are servants of a Greater Evil, or just because they suck human blood and take all of the handicapped parking places?
I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing: magic is evil. By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order. Divination, talking to spirits, etc. are consistently depicted as a means for evil spirits to possess or influence people contrary to Providence. (The tragedy of Saul in 1 Samuel and the fate of Simon Magus in Acts are probably the best examples.)
Judeo-Christian views of paganism are strongly influenced by the religious practices of the Phillistines and Semitic neighbors such as the Moabites, Ammonites, etc. As described in the Old Testament (and largely corraborated by archaeology), the neighbors of Israel practiced many barbaric rites that modern people associate with "Satanism," such as child sacrifice, self-mutilation, and "black magic." We can debate how correct or incorrect these views might be forever, but that is almost certainly their origin.
As another poster pointed out, conventional Christian morality isn't very flexible on these issues. Worshipping any one of anything apart from the Christ is at best idolatry, a mortal sin. Similarly, the only "unforgivable sin" is knowingly attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to Satan.
My point is this: Mike makes too many "satanism" jokes (and has in the past) for it to be explained away very easily. I suspect that his own religious background plays some role.
Quote from: Doc Steve on September 10, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing: magic is evil. By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order.
So construction projects like dams are satanic, cool....
Quote from: MartyS (Gromit) on September 10, 2008, 11:40:16 AM
Quote from: Doc Steve on September 10, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing: magic is evil. By definition, attempting to use magic is "satanic," in the sense that a created being is attempting to assert his or her will over the natural order.
So construction projects like dams are satanic, cool....
Well, the Amish might think so.
Concrete isn't really "magic." Don't believe the hype!
Not to disagree with Doc Steve's thoughtful and evidenced posting, but if the use of "magic" pre-dates Judaism and Christianity, then didn't the Judeo-Christians PUT an undeserving context on it? As opposed to modern uses of the mythology removing the context.
I think that's what I was trying unsuccessfully to get at originally. Not supporting any practices or theologies, part of my point was that Christianity put a Satanic value on something that wasn't intrinsically Satanic in origin. Doing something terrible and worshiping Satan are two entirely different things, and as someone else pointed out -- the Jewish and Christian God had people do terrible things in His name [including sacrifices]. It's that leap that I don't get.
I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.
Quote from: trobotcrow on September 10, 2008, 12:07:27 PM
Not to disagree with Doc Steve's thoughtful and evidenced posting, but if the use of "magic" pre-dates Judaism and Christianity, then didn't the Judeo-Christians PUT an undeserving context on it? As opposed to modern uses of the mythology removing the context.
I think that's what I was trying unsuccessfully to get at originally. Not supporting any practices or theologies, part of my point was that Christianity put a Satanic value on something that wasn't intrinsically Satanic in origin. Doing something terrible and worshiping Satan are two entirely different things, and as someone else pointed out -- the Jewish and Christian God had people do terrible things in His name [including sacrifices]. It's that leap that I don't get.
I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.
I wouldn't disagree with you so much as clarify a point. Assuming that the three core Western religions are responsible for the "negative" or "Satanic" view of magic use, we would then conclude that these belief systems projected their paradigm/value system onto something that previously did not have that connotation for other groups. That seems fair, since I think we would all agree that the Phillistines (just for example) weren't "Satanists" in any meaningful sense of the term, nor would they have considered their practices at Gath, Ashkelon, etc. "evil."
On the other hand, we don't live in a cultural vacuum. Magic, soothsaying, etc. have traditionally had a "Satanic" valuation and explanation in Western culture. For modern popular culture to largely ignore this seems to be a cop-out, by and large. In other words, I am not saying fiction and fantasy needs to stigmatize magic or pander to the Moral Majority, but to have demons and angels cluttering up the landscape (see:
Charmed,
Angel, etc.), while completely ignoring whether or not God and Satan even exist seems to be a little dishonest from an artistic standpoint.
Quote from: trobotcrow on September 10, 2008, 12:07:27 PM
I wondered if their upbringing meant that they subscribed to these beliefs -- although I don't agree with the assertion that just because they grew up religious they still hold all or any of the beliefs they were taught.
It's pretty well known that at least Mike holds some of those beliefs. He's been said to be "very religious" whatever that means. Can someone be "barely religious?" :) He's made references to his beliefs in several interviews.
Not that means anything to the context of the discussion. It's possible he just does jokes like that because the majority of the public would find them funny. I admit I laughed at his "Charmed" review in Megacheese. Like someone said, in the context of movies alone, outside of real history, we've been led believe certain things are evil. Witches are one of them.
I still contend that in most Christian belief systems, magic is intrinsically satanic because it does not come from Christ. On the other hand, there's a sect of Christian "witches" who say magic comes from Christ and is therefore good, but I don't think the Bible supports that (I guess in some ways Christ did perform "magic" , which is the basis for their arguments).
I wasn't trying to pigeonhole Christians. That is the very basis of the religion though. The path to god is through Christ. If you follow any other path, it's much harder (if not impossible) to serve God. In my opinion, you can't be a Christian and not believe the intended path to God is through Christ. Anyone who doesn't follow that intended path is at the very least taking the long way around.
Quote from: trobotcrow on September 07, 2008, 03:29:12 PM
I didn't really understand it until I saw ninjacat11's post RE: ZOMG.
After reading about it, I found that apparently there is a group of Christian organizations that believe that both the Harry Potter and Lord of the Rings books are Satanic because they deal with the occult.
Their line of thinking is that any powers of the occult comes from Satan. Therefore if you practice the occult -- even if you don't actually worship Satan -- that means that you are sinning in the eyes of God. But it seems that their problems aren't with the characters of the books, but with the authors -- that they are trying to brainwash children into becoming agents of Satan.
I guess that has to do with what AmandaGal was saying.
Not realizing this, I mistakenly believed the Riffers were commenting on ancient religious biases [as opposed to a real modern movement]. I still say that my disconnect was not knowing if the guys were making fun of that train of thought or believed it themselves.
Wait, people were accusing Lord Of The Rings as Satanic? Isn't that kinda strange, considering Tolkien was a Catholic?
According to my religion, Catholics don't worship correctly so they might as well be worshipping Satan.
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on September 10, 2008, 09:05:37 PM
According to my religion, Catholics don't worship correctly so they might as well be worshipping Satan.
I've actually heard that said by other Christians, because Catholicism kept a lot of traditions similar to the "old religion."
I guess you can get granular and say that if Satan is a real force, there are probably fruits (pun intended) of his trickery in all religion. So maybe we all worship Satan in some respects.
Weird.
Quote from: ninjacat11 on September 10, 2008, 04:19:17 PM
Wait, people were accusing Lord Of The Rings as Satanic? Isn't that kinda strange, considering Tolkien was a Catholic?
Yup. They are against anything that uses magic. They specifically mention those two in the readings I was doing [probably because of the timing with the movies]. You could probably lump The Chronicles of Narnia in there as well, and he was writing a Christian allegory.
Well, I just finished the Riff on Chamber of Secrets and the stuff that plays through the credits(which made me angry). I feel much better after reading this thread. As a Wiccan raised by other Wiccans I can say that HP doesn't lure kids into this religion, any more then D&D does.
Don't get me started on the evils of D&D....garsh.
Where are the Cheetos!?
I find convervative/christian nutters one of the funnier things in life so I was nervous about the tone (or even my perception of the tone) Mike would take after reading this thread but I just listened to it and I think they played it up enough it was clearly ridiculous.
Quote from: Doc Steve on September 10, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
My best guess is that on some level, some of the MSTies are probably uncomfortable with that sort of portrayal.
I'd be pretty suprised if Kevvin or Bill felt that way to any large degree.
Quote from: Doc Steve on September 10, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing: magic is evil.
not big on homsexuals and women either.
Quote from: ScottH on September 18, 2008, 11:33:33 PM
Quote from: Doc Steve on September 10, 2008, 11:00:14 AM
I guess most people do not realize that the mainstream traditions of Judaism, Christianity, and Islam all agree on at least one thing: magic is evil.
not big on homsexuals and women either.
They're often not too fond of each other either.
Quote from: RobtheBarbarian on September 18, 2008, 09:02:10 PM
Where are the Cheetos!?
Do you know that guys direct link to RiffTrax?
Have religious people ever considered that magic does not, and HAS NEVER EXISTED? It's like saying "yurple is evil." What's yurple? Oh, it's a color I just made up that's a cross between yellow and purple. Sheer idiocy. In essence, since neither Satan, organized worship of Satan, or magic exist, then they are indeed the same thing. IMAGINARY. You can believe in whatever religion tells you if that floats your boat, but them inventing slander against things that they don't believe in is insane. I mean if magic is evil, why did you make it up? Just don't pretend there is magic and voila, no evil to hate. You'll get more things done in the day. Magic is a word for things people didn't understand in the middle ages. I.E. most things. Magic and witches go no further than the Salem witch trials, where people just lied so they could murder others they disliked. Magic and in fact "Satan" are excuses to hate. "Evil" is a concept that allows you to break the rules in the name of rallying against it. You can be evil as long as it's in the name of fighting evil. Notice the "good" people rarely stomp around with cardboard signs protesting real evil like terrorism or actual murder, because it's f*cking obvious. Nobody needs to point it out. But if you write a book that has a cultlike following and it stands to compete with your own cultlike following without being a part of it, it must be a secret evil that must be exposed and obliterated. Or it's just the prettier girl in the neighborhood that your husband glances at and you must burn it at the stake. I get those two mixed up.
That said, Harry Potter celebrating Christmas is a bit WTF. Unless Jesus was a wizard. *coughhintcough*
Quote from: bratpop on October 24, 2008, 11:12:57 AM
Have religious people ever considered that magic does not, and HAS NEVER EXISTED? It's like saying "yurple is evil." What's yurple? Oh, it's a color I just made up that's a cross between yellow and purple. Sheer idiocy. In essence, since neither Satan, organized worship of Satan, or magic exist, then they are indeed the same thing. IMAGINARY. You can believe in whatever religion tells you if that floats your boat, but them inventing slander against things that they don't believe in is insane. I mean if magic is evil, why did you make it up? Just don't pretend there is magic and voila, no evil to hate. You'll get more things done in the day. Magic is a word for things people didn't understand in the middle ages. I.E. most things. Magic and witches go no further than the Salem witch trials, where people just lied so they could murder others they disliked. Magic and in fact "Satan" are excuses to hate. "Evil" is a concept that allows you to break the rules in the name of rallying against it. You can be evil as long as it's in the name of fighting evil. Notice the "good" people rarely stomp around with cardboard signs protesting real evil like terrorism or actual murder, because it's f*cking obvious. Nobody needs to point it out. But if you write a book that has a cultlike following and it stands to compete with your own cultlike following without being a part of it, it must be a secret evil that must be exposed and obliterated. Or it's just the prettier girl in the neighborhood that your husband glances at and you must burn it at the stake. I get those two mixed up.
It depends on your definition of magic. Some Christians define it something that clearly doesn't exist, but some Christians really do protest it in the way it does exist. Magic, in reality, is a lot like prayer, but according to Christians it is prayer to a false god. I agree that I don't know why they'd get so upset at my praying to a false god, but they didn't "make it up." People do practice "magick." I would suggest they ignore it, but it's not like there are really are no "witches," they just don't ride brooms. To say it doesn't exist is much like saying prayer doesn't exist, vigils don't exist, people don't burn candles in Catholic churchs and Hindu's don't have idols.
Good and Evil go hand in hand. If we didn't have "evil," we'd have no excuse to do good. If there was no Satan, we wouldn't try to get into heaven. That's simplified, but evil does exist, it just depends on your own personal moral structure where you draw that line. There are some things that I could never be convinced to do in a rational state of being because I think they are bad (removing irrational situations and psychosis). Maybe someone told me those were wrong, but most things I've been told are wrong, I've thought about or tried before I realized, "yeah, those are wrong." I think we all have some internal sense of "evil." Your may be different than mine, so maybe evil is more subjective. Good certainly is.
OMG TEH SATAN >:D
Also, saying that it's obvious that magic never existed and that people who worship an old man in the sky that we can't see but can cause people to die and floods, and frogs to fall from the sky should realize that is a bit presumptuous.
If magic is a term used to describe things that people didn't truly understand, then god(s) fall into that same category.
And also, let's not forget there are plenty of things we still do not understand.
But the real danger is always the sense of other, that makes it okay to cross that tenuous line between moral and immoral.
Well, let's put it this way - there's no such thing as HARMFUL magic. Like, I made you poop by lighting this candle and saying "malahalahoochee" five times. If doing "magick" or being a "witcch" is harmful to Christianity, then it's only insofar as every other religion is harmful to Christianity, so why not just say everything that isn't Christianity is "magic." I think fear of magic predates general knowledge of Wicca. Hating Wicca would be based on hating "magic," not the other way around.
Back to Harry Potter, it's not as if there is some cult of Jo Rowling that the books are promoting. The books ARE the cult. And that's what scares Christians. It's not as if children can actually go to Hogwarts to learn magic spells because they like the books. If Jesus was half as cool as Harry Potter, kids would be excited about reading the Bible. But much of the Bible is not about Jesus. And they never made a good movie of it either. The promoting "witchcraft" thing is absurd. No kid is going to be satisfied by Wicca after reading Harry Potter books. If anything, it would keep kids away from "real" "magick" because they don't let you play Quiddich. It's not as if the books say "don't worship Jesus." Although I'm personally of the opinion that since Jesus never said to worship him, you shouldn't. But by that logic, 99% of all books written are evil and promote witchcraft because they don't say worship Jesus. The problem obviously stems from ignorant people who can barely speak English recognizing only the similarity between two words and thinking, amazingly, that there actually is a cult of people who can perform magic spells and fly around on brooms. And HELL YEAH I would join that cult if it was true. But look it on up Wikipedia. It's not the same. Like "you're" and "your."
I'm fine with joking that they worship the Devil in the Harry Potter universe, just based on the absurdity of celebrating Christmas when clearly they wouldn't be allowed to be Christians, either by Christians or by the wizarding community. It's also a joke on the commercialism of Christmas, and the fact that it largely has nothing to do with celebrating Jesus. The joke is in the fact that its origins remain the same, and the idea that wizards would worship a guy clearly less powerful than they are is laughably ironic if you stop and think about it. Besides, magic IS stereotypically associated with the Devil in modern media. See The Witches of Eastwick and Warlock for the most prominent examples. But that has never had anything to do with "real" "witches," who are essentially just hippies (I knew one in high school). If they were so offended at the comparison, it would be stupid to label themselves in that way. Somehow I doubt they're that touchy. But they obviously get off on the idea. It's fun to pretend you're a witch even though you only worship nature. You obviously reject most major religions, thus making you an outcast. And outcasts like messing with people like Christians. As long as they're not trying to set fire to you.
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 04:52:28 AM
Well, let's put it this way - there's no such thing as HARMFUL magic. Like, I made you poop by lighting this candle and saying "malahalahoochee" five times. If doing "magick" or being a "witcch" is harmful to Christianity, then it's only insofar as every other religion is harmful to Christianity, so why not just say everything that isn't Christianity is "magic." I think fear of magic predates general knowledge of Wicca. Hating Wicca would be based on hating "magic," not the other way around.
You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you? Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth. Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it. Not for the "magic." There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc.
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 04:52:28 AM
I'm fine with joking that they worship the Devil in the Harry Potter universe, just based on the absurdity of celebrating Christmas when clearly they wouldn't be allowed to be Christians, either by Christians or by the wizarding community.
There's a group of Christian witches who actually celebrate Christmas and believe in Jesus as the savior. They just interpret the Bible differently than conservative Christians. Some think Jesus practiced witchcraft, even and by practicing it, we can get closer to him. That's beside the point. There's Jewish witches too. Many "witches" just believe in nature magic and not the religious aspects associated with Wicca. The magic can come from Jesus, God, whatever. Wicca isn't the only witchcraft path.
I don't know why the wizard community, in Harry Potter, would be all "you can't be [religion]" and ban the kids from celebrating Christmas. If we are to believe that religions exist in Harry Potter (which they don't, so I don't know why you even said they'd not be Christians), shouldn't we also believe that the Wizards are Christian and Jewish, etc? Wizarding is not a religious thing in this universe. It's like being born with a genetic defect or red hair. People with Klinefelter's and Red hair can be Christians too. It just doesn't make sense. Hogwarts is a private, British school. They would likely celebrate Christmas, as most private, British Schools do. They would likely be majority Christian as most Brits are if we are to assume that "witchcraft" isn't a religious choice (or even a choice).
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:26:24 AM
You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you? Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth. Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it. Not for the "magic." There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc.
I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.
I think the wizarding world would not allow religion because they generally are cut off from muggles. Many of the pureblood don't even understand basic concepts which could be easily clarified by a trip to the mall, so it seems unlikely they would have their own churches dedicated to every major religion. Going to a muggle church would risk exposing them due to the social interaction required, and good Lord, what about confession? So if they don't do that, and presumably they don't have wizard churches for every major religion, then they probably don't have churches for any of them. Besides, the whole protest should make it obvious that if a religion sees magic as evil, you wouldn't go to Hogwarts if you were part of that religion. That's without touching the obvious avoidance of the hotbox issue of religion being mentioned in the books. But based on what's in the books, aside from them using... books, and going to school, anything they do that's similar to muggles has some magic twist on it. So it's a bit off that they'd celebrate muggle holidays. And there are clear distinctions in the books between muggles and wizard folk. Wizards have a whole separate knowledge of history. They have their own famous figures, and sports teams, and music. Purebloods know little of muggle celebrities or popular culture, despite that making little sense. They're not simply mutants or normal people who can do magic. They have their own culture. Likely they'd have their own holidays. And with the secret knowledge of history, they'd know whether Jesus was a wizard or not, and whether the concepts behind Easter and Halloween were ridiculous. Which means Jesus being a wizard is the only logical reason why anyone but muggle born wizards would celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts. I mean, I could see them getting Christmas off, since the purebloods would want the same benefit as the muggle borns. But not them decorating the castle and having trees when most of the kids go home. Otherwise, them celebrating Christmas must be illogical and therefore fodder for humor. Muggle holidays, i.e. holidays, are based on a total lack of knowledge of magic or wizards. So if we knew about magic and wizards, those holidays would either not exist or be very different. Because you're not going to celebrate All Hallows Eve and try to keep spirits away if you know spells to keep evil spirits away. So wizards celebrating most holidays would be very silly, because they'd know better.
My goodness gracious, what an absurd discussion.
And okay, maybe some Christians hate Wicca for Wicca, but they wouldn't be the ones protesting Harry Potter's fictional magic, would they. And likely the "intelligent," ...hmm, let's say "informed" instead... Christians would reject any religion as having merit, not just Wicca. Some people like to be informed just to find reasons to hate. I mean, there are whole sites about why Harry Potter is evil in addition to people forming picket lines who haven't read it. Still wrong.
Quote from: ScottH on October 27, 2008, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:26:24 AM
You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you? Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth. Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it. Not for the "magic." There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc.
I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.
Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil." I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 06:52:24 AM
I think the wizarding world would not allow religion because they generally are cut off from muggles. Many of the pureblood don't even understand basic concepts which could be easily clarified by a trip to the mall, so it seems unlikely they would have their own churches dedicated to every major religion. Going to a muggle church would risk exposing them due to the social interaction required, and good Lord, what about confession? So if they don't do that, and presumably they don't have wizard churches for every major religion, then they probably don't have churches for any of them.
I don't know why they wouldn't have a church. They seem to live fairly normal lives, aside from the magic. Granted, Rowling doesn't allude to a church, but having a church doesn't seem absurd to me either in that universe. Perhaps Jesus was a Wizard and Buddha and Allah too and they know it. Maybe they are the reason we have different philosophies of wizarding (and we are led to believe that different schools and locations have different idealogical beliefs in Harry Potter).
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 06:52:24 AM
Besides, the whole protest should make it obvious that if a religion sees magic as evil, you wouldn't go to Hogwarts if you were part of that religion. That's without touching the obvious avoidance of the hotbox issue of religion being mentioned in the books. But based on what's in the books, aside from them using... books, and going to school, anything they do that's similar to muggles has some magic twist on it. So it's a bit off that they'd celebrate muggle holidays.
Maybe those dumb muggles just celebrate wrong, and the wizards know the truth of the holidays though :) Their Christmas was different, even as a secular Christmas (and yeah, this is an absurd topic). Like you said, if Jesus is some super wizard and all the religious symbols were "super wizards" or "Omnipotent wizards" then Christmas would be even more powerful to the kids at Hogwarts. They would just have it right and the Muggles would have it wrong (although, one could understand how they would mistake some superwizard for son of god). Though, I would say that Dumbledore needs a religion too, now that he's dead.
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 06:52:24 AM
Because you're not going to celebrate All Hallows Eve and try to keep spirits away if you know spells to keep evil spirits away. So wizards celebrating most holidays would be very silly, because they'd know better.
Who told us what t hey were celebrating at Christmas though? For witches, Halloween is a celebration to honor the passing spirits, not to keep them away. It's a celebration of death because death is necessary for life. Who knows what the little munchkins were actually celebrating besides eating a lot and getting presents. Maybe they were celebrating that Jesus Christ, the super cool wizard, was attacked by muggles only to retaliate after the entombed him on that. Who knows? Of maybe she named it "Christmas" but they were celebrating the concept of Yule, a celebration of hope and light. You have a Yule feast and presents are normally given. But I do agree, unless Christ was a kickass wizard, they wouldn't call it Christmas.
Quote from: bratpop on October 27, 2008, 06:52:24 AM
And okay, maybe some Christians hate Wicca for Wicca, but they wouldn't be the ones protesting Harry Potter's fictional magic, would they. And likely the "intelligent," ...hmm, let's say "informed" instead... Christians would reject any religion as having merit, not just Wicca. Some people like to be informed just to find reasons to hate. I mean, there are whole sites about why Harry Potter is evil in addition to people forming picket lines who haven't read it. Still wrong.
You said fear of magic predates fear of Wicca. I was just pointing out that they were two different things for some. I doubt the people protesting Harry Potter really know what Wicca is. Like I said, some Christians I have spoken to find Wicca more dangerous than other religions because it is more attractive to youths and it's often presented as fun and dramatic and familiar (to Catholics, the ceremony is very familiar, the concept of prayer is very similar too). So, it's not something completely unfamiliar like Tao or Shinto or Buddhism and it doesn't have all the steps that Judaism has, etc.
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:56:31 AM
Quote from: ScottH on October 27, 2008, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:26:24 AM
You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you? Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth. Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it. Not for the "magic." There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc.
I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.
Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil." I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.
Both opinions seem pretty ignorant to me but then I don't really see the difference between any orgainized belief system. Wicca, Christianity, Scientology, etc, etc... except possibly Christians (as a whole) seem to take it on themselves to hassle other people more than the rest.
I just saw this one recently with my kid sister. I did think it was a little weird. I mean, it was like 9 or 10 times they say it right?
Quote from: ScottH on October 27, 2008, 07:27:11 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:56:31 AM
Quote from: ScottH on October 27, 2008, 06:46:45 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on October 27, 2008, 06:26:24 AM
You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you? Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth. Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it. Not for the "magic." There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc.
I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.
Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil." I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.
Both opinions seem pretty ignorant to me but then I don't really see the difference between any orgainized belief system. Wicca, Christianity, Scientology, etc, etc... except possibly Christians (as a whole) seem to take it on themselves to hassle other people more than the rest.
I tend to try to look inside the belief system before I judge. I can see why Christians would be opposed to their children, friends, etc. partaking in Wicca based on the rules setup by their belief system. I can see why they would want everyone to be Christian based on the rules of their belief system.
That being said, I never said I was "for" religion bashing. Based on their own belief, you're not to be judgmental. You can dislike Wicca and wish for the person to convert without being pushy and offensive. Of course, anyone who would explain to me why they find Wicca to be a danger to their church members would have to be open to discourse instead of "You go to hell, Witch." As I said, I'm not talking about the Harry Potter nuts. I was talking about bratpop's general statement that people who don't like Wicca don't like it based on "magic."
Many clergy and practitioners of religion are very well-informed on other religions and can intelligently discuss them and tell you why they don't fit into their belief system. Most often, the answer isn't simply "Jesus ain't in it" though that is a big sticking point .:) Of course,
most of them won't actively harass you about it or tell your kids are going to hell for reading a book. Those zealots get the press, just like waked out wiccans get the press on the witch end.
It
pisses me off peeves me when one assumes that every person who practices an organized religion lives in a box and doesn't know about others. To be clergy, you have to or should know about others so you can tell people why you believe the way you do instead of the way they do. Most often, "'cause God said it." isn't an inspiring enough answer.
Quote from: Hebs on October 27, 2008, 07:33:38 AM
I just saw this one recently with my kid sister. I did think it was a little weird. I mean, it was like 9 or 10 times they say it right?
That was part of my original intent with this post. Trying to figure out the impetus behind the numerous jokes.
There are a subset of Christians who believe that magic is a power granted by the devil, and that ANY use of magic is against God.
Christians also used this tack to cause fear of the pagans. This, in combination with bringing things like the Yuletide celebrations into Christianity, was a method of converting people to Christianity.
But with regards to Harry Potter, there are books specifically about how evil Harry Potter franchise is because of it's use of magic -- which is from Satan.
My original question was whether or not all of the references in the Riff bothered anyone else, so I could see if I was over-reacting. My original thought was not, as some have pointed out, that they were making reference and fun of people who held that belief -- but that they themselves held that belief.
It's not like Rifftrax isn't known for using the same joke over and over and over.
And of course they don't actually believe that fictional characters secretly worship the Devil. You can't be an ignorant moron and be funny (I suppose redneck comedy would tend to suggest otherwise, but I'm relatively sure all those guys are reasonably intelligent and just acting). If Kevin and Bill didn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, they'd be dressed as robots every day. And Mike would tell people, "Hey, MAN. I was an ASTRONAUT!" If they were zealots, I don't think they would be in this business, or laughing at movies like Touch of Satan. I mean, you can't be a light-hearted, close-minded bigot.
Quote from: bratpop on October 28, 2008, 04:22:18 AM
It's not like Rifftrax isn't known for using the same joke over and over and over.
And of course they don't actually believe that fictional characters secretly worship the Devil. You can't be an ignorant moron and be funny (I suppose redneck comedy would tend to suggest otherwise, but I'm relatively sure all those guys are reasonably intelligent and just acting). If Kevin and Bill didn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, they'd be dressed as robots every day. And Mike would tell people, "Hey, MAN. I was an ASTRONAUT!" If they were zealots, I don't think they would be in this business, or laughing at movies like Touch of Satan. I mean, you can't be a light-hearted, close-minded bigot.
I don't think that goes hand-in-hand. I know plenty of folks who are perfectly functioning, intelligent people -- but have an unwavering belief in religion. There are ultra-religious scientists, so I don't think having a sense of humor cancels out one's ability to be a racist or a religious zealot.
Plenty of people who "know the difference between fantasy and reality" believe in an invisible old man who watches us from the sky, and sent his son down to us [who wasn't really his son, but part of himself] so he could die and go back to heaven with his father [who's really him]. People are able to compartmentalize and rationalize biases learned at an early age and still not "dress...as robots everyday".
That's what makes these kinds of biases more dangerous. What makes people like Pat Buchanan dangerous [more so than, say, Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly] is that some of the time he says rational things with evidenced support. True evils in the world are much more subtle.
Take the Rifftrax forum, for example. There are people who truly believe that Sarah Palin would be good for this country. How could anyone with a sense of humor be so out of touch with reality? And they must have a sense of humor -- if they're fans of MST3k and Rifftrax.
Oh geez, let's not get this thread off track
Even if I hadn't created this thread, conversations flow. My response was a direct response to someone else's direct response.
We're talking about irrational justifications made by people who are wholly rational. I would be remiss if I didn't offer some analogy to easier prove my point.
You don't joke about what you believe in. Therefore, they don't believe innocently portrayed fictional children worship the devil. Case closed.
Quote from: bratpop on October 30, 2008, 07:49:53 AM
You don't joke about what you believe in. Therefore, they don't believe innocently portrayed fictional children worship the devil. Case closed.
100% Untrue. As a former United Methodist minister, I can tell you that seminary students' humor largely centers on making fun of things they believe in themselves. (Not to mention making fun of goofy sounding phrases in Greek, Hebrew, and/or Latin.)
As I mentioned several pages earlier, there is always a grain of truth in comedy, and I believe that Mike is making a deliberate point. That is, you have some obligation as an artist to address the "moral" dimension of magic, whereas most modern authors like Rowling tend to ignore or trivialize it. He even discusses this in
Movie Megacheese.
Quote from: Doc Steve on November 04, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: bratpop on October 30, 2008, 07:49:53 AM
You don't joke about what you believe in. Therefore, they don't believe innocently portrayed fictional children worship the devil. Case closed.
100% Untrue. As a former United Methodist minister, I can tell you that seminary students' humor largely centers on making fun of things they believe in themselves. (Not to mention making fun of goofy sounding phrases in Greek, Hebrew, and/or Latin.)
As I mentioned several pages earlier, there is always a grain of truth in comedy, and I believe that Mike is making a deliberate point. That is, you have some obligation as an artist to address the "moral" dimension of magic, whereas most modern authors like Rowling tend to ignore or trivialize it. He even discusses this in Movie Megacheese.
I'm not understanding what the ""moral" dimension of magic" is referring to. Magic isn't moral or immoral since it is slight-of-hand. Please explain.
Quote from: bettertomorrowamy on November 04, 2008, 01:35:40 PM
Quote from: Doc Steve on November 04, 2008, 01:31:24 PM
Quote from: bratpop on October 30, 2008, 07:49:53 AM
You don't joke about what you believe in. Therefore, they don't believe innocently portrayed fictional children worship the devil. Case closed.
100% Untrue. As a former United Methodist minister, I can tell you that seminary students' humor largely centers on making fun of things they believe in themselves. (Not to mention making fun of goofy sounding phrases in Greek, Hebrew, and/or Latin.)
As I mentioned several pages earlier, there is always a grain of truth in comedy, and I believe that Mike is making a deliberate point. That is, you have some obligation as an artist to address the "moral" dimension of magic, whereas most modern authors like Rowling tend to ignore or trivialize it. He even discusses this in Movie Megacheese.
I'm not understanding what the ""moral" dimension of magic" is referring to. Magic isn't moral or immoral since it is slight-of-hand. Please explain.
The basic idea is that "magic" and "witchcraft" have moral contexts in traditional Western culture. They tend not to in modern popular culture. If this is a deliberate rejection, then fine. If it is simply intellectual laziness (which I believe is the case the majority of the time), then it is certainly objectionable.
Please go back a few pages and read my earlier posts. If that doesn't work for you, I suggest re-reading
Movie Megacheese. I'm at work. When I get home, I'll give the page reference to the chapter where Mike addresses this.
I think we are disagreeing on the meaning of magic then. Sorry.
IF magic existed, people would certainly equate it to some sort of Devil worship. But it doesn't. I think that's the extent of the joke. In this fictional world, certainly muggles would accuse the school of devilry... is that a word?
Anyway, why doesn't anyone ever mention Merlin? Certainly nobody has ever portrayed Merlin as evil. He's one of the classic goodguys. Why is it okay for Merlin, the literary origin for fictional magic, to use magic, but not kids in a book directly inspired by and referencing Merlin? This is where the boundaries of the argument should be. In comparison to other fiction, not to real life religious beliefs about things that don't exist or threaten anyone.
And besides ALL of that, the books are for annoying little British kids. Why would people in the Bible belt care if those kids are corrupted? If anything, they should protest American kids being exposed to British literature.
The whole argument is patently ignorant in the context of using magic to fight evil. I guess it's not okay to acknowledge that part of it. You know, only THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SERIES. If Rowling bloody well says the kids aren't evil, then I guess they're not evil. Or are we forgetting that whole believing in the good nature of people and assuming everyone is a liar. Typical religious persecution based on inane nonsense, where there is no place for argument to begin with. "You said 'sparrow' on a Thursday! You are to be burned at the stake!"
To lump Mike, Kevin and Bill in with those people is the deepest of insults. This isn't about "intelligent" Christians not approving of Wicca.
Quote from: bratpop on November 05, 2008, 12:20:29 AM
If anything, they should protest American kids being exposed to British literature.
....
Quote from: bratpop on November 05, 2008, 12:20:29 AM
Anyway, why doesn't anyone ever mention Merlin? Certainly nobody has ever portrayed Merlin as evil. He's one of the classic goodguys. Why is it okay for Merlin, the literary origin for fictional magic, to use magic, but not kids in a book directly inspired by and referencing Merlin? This is where the boundaries of the argument should be. In comparison to other fiction, not to real life religious beliefs about thing
I'm pretty sure the Catholic Church, as a whole, counts Merlin as evil too. They never said it, but it was always in the context of, "This is what it was like before we were saved." "before people knew God's word."
I recall being taught in school that he was a Druid priest and therefore, not good. Back then Christ's word hadn't spread that far. Perhaps he just didn't know better. Arthur was a pagan king, as was common. Of course he'd have a priest. Messed up teachings :)
I did watch the "Sword and the Stone" like other kids though. I wanted to shoot Gorgi.
I do vaguely remember reading a book where Merlin was a manipulative bastard, but I don't recall what it was. That was when I was older and it was not required reading.
Quote from: AmandaGal on November 05, 2008, 12:40:24 AM
I did watch the "Sword and the Stone" like other kids though. I wanted to shoot Gorgi.
The little furry guy who threw himself in the cauldron in a different book based Disney movie?
Quote from: bratpop on November 05, 2008, 12:20:29 AM
IF magic existed, people would certainly equate it to some sort of Devil worship. But it doesn't. I think that's the extent of the joke. In this fictional world, certainly muggles would accuse the school of devilry... is that a word?
Anyway, why doesn't anyone ever mention Merlin? Certainly nobody has ever portrayed Merlin as evil. He's one of the classic goodguys. Why is it okay for Merlin, the literary origin for fictional magic, to use magic, but not kids in a book directly inspired by and referencing Merlin? This is where the boundaries of the argument should be. In comparison to other fiction, not to real life religious beliefs about things that don't exist or threaten anyone.
And besides ALL of that, the books are for annoying little British kids. Why would people in the Bible belt care if those kids are corrupted? If anything, they should protest American kids being exposed to British literature.
The whole argument is patently ignorant in the context of using magic to fight evil. I guess it's not okay to acknowledge that part of it. You know, only THE WHOLE POINT OF THE SERIES. If Rowling bloody well says the kids aren't evil, then I guess they're not evil. Or are we forgetting that whole believing in the good nature of people and assuming everyone is a liar. Typical religious persecution based on inane nonsense, where there is no place for argument to begin with. "You said 'sparrow' on a Thursday! You are to be burned at the stake!"
To lump Mike, Kevin and Bill in with those people is the deepest of insults. This isn't about "intelligent" Christians not approving of Wicca.
You have a tendency to undermine your valid points with a lot of rhetoric.
1. Paraphase: The whole point of the Harry Potter series is that the main characters fight evil. That's a great point that pretty much settles the matter within the own terms of that fictional universe. I have to agree with that. These are stories for juveniles, after all.
2. Quote: "To lump Mike, Kevin and Bill in with those people is the deepest of insults. This isn't about "intelligent" Christians not approving of Wicca."
False dichotomy. There is an entire spectrum of opinion possible.
This is a matter of looking at the motivation for a series of remarks that were intended to be humorous. The original question was something to the effect of: "Are all of these Satanism jokes overkill?" That's really a matter of opinion or taste in the final analysis. (Personally, I thought it was a little overused.) The discussion then shifted to motivation, why it was supposed to be funny, etc.
There has to be some basis in reality and some context for "humor" to be funny. Earlier, you claimed that people don't joke about what they believe. You must know some incredibly dour people. I find the exact opposite to be true. Also, if our attempts at humor weren't somewhat true or at least grounded in reality, would they be funny? For example, people don't invent traits for "insult humor." The guy with the biggest nose or biggest jug-ears is getting the razz; otherwise, it would just be a random comment.
The "Satanism" jokes are there because Western culture stigmatizes the occult, or at least has done so in the past. It's just that simple. If people associated the practice of magic with purple stuffed bunny rabbits, then there would have been purple stuffed bunny rabbit jokes.
Additionally, I think that Mike believes that Rowling's presentation of magic is somewhat intellectually dishonest or lazy. Again, I don't think it's a major axe that he is grinding, but the remarks had to come from somewhere. Read pages 132-133 of
Movie Megacheese (article on
Event Horizon). It is very clear to me that Mike is adopting the position that I have described in that article. That is, an author looks pretty shallow by raising these sorts of issues (the difference between good and evil, for example), then failing to address them in any meaningful way.
That's it. No hidden agenda. No theological dogma to perpetuate. Just a suggestion concerning the origin of the remarks.
By the way, C.S. Lewis wrote quite a lengthy novel dealing with modernity, Christendom, and Merlin:
That Hideous Strength. (The title refers to a nationalized think tank/corporation, not Merlin.)
Quote from: RoninFox on November 05, 2008, 05:03:16 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on November 05, 2008, 12:40:24 AM
I did watch the "Sword and the Stone" like other kids though. I wanted to shoot Gorgi.
The little furry guy who threw himself in the cauldron in a different book based Disney movie?
Yeah. That was the
Black Cauldron. I just wanted to throw that out there. That movie REALLY was awful. Sword had Archimedes, who wasn't that bad.
I don't think "Western" culture stigmatizes the occult so much as tolerating the stigmatism held over from European culture. There's probably more occult fascination over here due to lack of ingrained superstitions.
I don't know if Rowling's position is lazy. It could be viewed that way. She basically poo-pooed the mild uproar, but then it really was only a mild, silly uproar, the likes of which we see whenever a Kevin Smith makes a Dogma. It would have been interesting to read some sort of recognition of how magic is viewed in the Harry Potter books, but perhaps it wouldn't be exactly appropriate. I do think they at least hint that the whole reason the wizarding world is separate is on account of the whole burning witches at the stake. I don't suppose they could actually prove they aren't evil, so no point dwelling on it. They fight evil, and they don't have to answer to anyone. I mean, I think the books are very much from a Disney point of view on magic. If the movies were cartoons, it wouldn't be half the fuss. It is a LITTLE weird when you compare it to something like the Wizard of Oz, which has evil witches (and good ones too, but primarily they're used in a traditional way). I can't think of any passage specifically that addresses the irony that most witches are just working class folks, but then, isn't the whole series rather tongue in cheek? When you consider that their brooms are valued merchandise and they use them in a soccer-like sport, and they use magic to make candy and moving pictures in newspapers, there's clearly nothing malicious going on. It's akin to Casper the Friendly Ghost. Obviously ghosts are evil, but you don't have to make lengthy excuses for something that goofy. If Jo had intended the books to have a cultlike following, she probably would have taken it a little more seriously, if not as much as the readers (or zealots who hate reading) do. But since she clearly doesn't hold the belief that magic is evil, and the books are written with whimsy in mind, you can't blame her for being "lazy" about the responsibility. It would be patently absurd if they referenced the Devil in the books as a real entity and said they didn't worship him.
So yeah, magic can have a stigmatism, but is one required to address the religious aspect? It's "Magic Kingdom" kind of magic. Like a really good key lime pie is magic. Like Jesus is magic. Like you just want to have a wonderful, magical time at Christmas. I mean, I'll be damned if Santa isn't magic (and of course he's probably also Satan). But then he also is famous for fighting Satan. I guess you can't really win. But it's just this side of having to explain science fiction because creationists think science is evil.
Anyway, didn't the Satanism jokes stem from the Christian religious symbols in the movie, not just from the magic itself? I recall them starting with the Christmas scenes, maybe I'm wrong.
Though considering the source, remembering the unmistakable DEMON FROM HELL in Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders would make the association as automatic as giant turtles and Gamera. I mean, ya got a fairly harmless Merlin there who seems to be good natured, yet he owns a book which can summon demons. You have to wonder. :)
BTW I ordered Movie Megacheese today since you mentioned it. Tell Mike he owes you. (Not really, it's a used copy.)
Quote from: bratpop on November 05, 2008, 09:45:31 AM
I don't think "Western" culture stigmatizes the occult so much as tolerating the stigmatism held over from European culture. There's probably more occult fascination over here due to lack of ingrained superstitions.
I don't know if Rowling's position is lazy. It could be viewed that way. She basically poo-pooed the mild uproar, but then it really was only a mild, silly uproar, the likes of which we see whenever a Kevin Smith makes a Dogma. It would have been interesting to read some sort of recognition of how magic is viewed in the Harry Potter books, but perhaps it wouldn't be exactly appropriate. I do think they at least hint that the whole reason the wizarding world is separate is on account of the whole burning witches at the stake. I don't suppose they could actually prove they aren't evil, so no point dwelling on it. They fight evil, and they don't have to answer to anyone. I mean, I think the books are very much from a Disney point of view on magic. If the movies were cartoons, it wouldn't be half the fuss. It is a LITTLE weird when you compare it to something like the Wizard of Oz, which has evil witches (and good ones too, but primarily they're used in a traditional way). I can't think of any passage specifically that addresses the irony that most witches are just working class folks, but then, isn't the whole series rather tongue in cheek? When you consider that their brooms are valued merchandise and they use them in a soccer-like sport, and they use magic to make candy and moving pictures in newspapers, there's clearly nothing malicious going on. It's akin to Casper the Friendly Ghost. Obviously ghosts are evil, but you don't have to make lengthy excuses for something that goofy. If Jo had intended the books to have a cultlike following, she probably would have taken it a little more seriously, if not as much as the readers (or zealots who hate reading) do. But since she clearly doesn't hold the belief that magic is evil, and the books are written with whimsy in mind, you can't blame her for being "lazy" about the responsibility. It would be patently absurd if they referenced the Devil in the books as a real entity and said they didn't worship him.
So yeah, magic can have a stigmatism, but is one required to address the religious aspect? It's "Magic Kingdom" kind of magic. Like a really good key lime pie is magic. Like Jesus is magic. Like you just want to have a wonderful, magical time at Christmas. I mean, I'll be damned if Santa isn't magic (and of course he's probably also Satan). But then he also is famous for fighting Satan. I guess you can't really win. But it's just this side of having to explain science fiction because creationists think science is evil.
Anyway, didn't the Satanism jokes stem from the Christian religious symbols in the movie, not just from the magic itself? I recall them starting with the Christmas scenes, maybe I'm wrong.
Though considering the source, remembering the unmistakable DEMON FROM HELL in Merlin's Shop of Mystical Wonders would make the association as automatic as giant turtles and Gamera. I mean, ya got a fairly harmless Merlin there who seems to be good natured, yet he owns a book which can summon demons. You have to wonder. :)
BTW I ordered Movie Megacheese today since you mentioned it. Tell Mike he owes you. (Not really, it's a used copy.)
You would probably like
That Hideous Strength by C.S. Lewis also. It is the third book of a trilogy, but you don't need to read the first two (at all).
As you mention, Rowling couldn't have anticipated that her books would receive the same level of attention as say,
The Lord of the Rings. (Nor did Tolkien expect it, he just provided all the background information for kicks anyway.) In contrast, the Potter books are lacking in that TLOTR definitely has a well-developed religious and/or spiritual dimension. For example, the Istari, the Order of Wizards, are actually similar to angels. They were sent to Middle Earth by the Creator. (Thus, Saruman is akin to Lucifer in that he is a fallen angel.)
Here's the difference, though. Hobbits may be childlike, but they are not children. TLOTR is first and foremost a series for adults or young adults. The Rowling books are aimed at a younger audience. Also,
Harry is younger. Frodo is around 35-36 when he sets out for Rivendell. You couldn't just dump all of that information on Harry all at once like Gandalf does in
The Fellowship of the Ring. Therefore, we the readers don't learn about it in any systematic way in the first two Potter books (and movies).
Whether or not it is fair to criticize J.K. Rowling on this score is an entirely different issue, I suppose. I would hope that it comes to the forefront as Harry and his readership grew older.
Quote from: AmandaGal on November 05, 2008, 07:45:56 AM
Quote from: RoninFox on November 05, 2008, 05:03:16 AM
Quote from: AmandaGal on November 05, 2008, 12:40:24 AM
I did watch the "Sword and the Stone" like other kids though. I wanted to shoot Gorgi.
The little furry guy who threw himself in the cauldron in a different book based Disney movie?
Yeah. That was the Black Cauldron. I just wanted to throw that out there. That movie REALLY was awful. Sword had Archimedes, who wasn't that bad.
Just wanted to clarify, personally I agree that Gorgi was annoying as hell. I liked Archimedes in Sword though.
There is some sense of spirituality in the 7th book, but that's about as far as it gets.
I did think the satan jokes were a bit overdone.
I asked my therapist "I'm horny all the time. Am I a Satanist?"
She said "Maybe a sex addict. Do you believe in Satan?"
I said "I will if she's available."
[now you guys know why I don't do stand up]