Does the "worshipping Satan" stuff bother anyone else?

[BBQ Platypus]

OMG TEH SATAN

[trobotcrow]

Also, saying that it's obvious that magic never existed and that people who worship an old man in the sky that we can't see but can cause people to die and floods, and frogs to fall from the sky should realize that is a bit presumptuous.

If magic is a term used to describe things that people didn't truly understand, then god(s) fall into that same category.

And also, let's not forget there are plenty of things we still do not understand.

But the real danger is always the sense of other, that makes it okay to cross that tenuous line between moral and immoral.

[bratpop]

Well, let's put it this way - there's no such thing as HARMFUL magic. Like, I made you poop by lighting this candle and saying "malahalahoochee" five times. If doing "magick" or being a "witcch" is harmful to Christianity, then it's only insofar as every other religion is harmful to Christianity, so why not just say everything that isn't Christianity is "magic." I think fear of magic predates general knowledge of Wicca. Hating Wicca would be based on hating "magic," not the other way around.

Back to Harry Potter, it's not as if there is some cult of Jo Rowling that the books are promoting. The books ARE the cult. And that's what scares Christians. It's not as if children can actually go to Hogwarts to learn magic spells because they like the books. If Jesus was half as cool as Harry Potter, kids would be excited about reading the Bible. But much of the Bible is not about Jesus. And they never made a good movie of it either. The promoting "witchcraft" thing is absurd. No kid is going to be satisfied by Wicca after reading Harry Potter books. If anything, it would keep kids away from "real" "magick" because they don't let you play Quiddich. It's not as if the books say "don't worship Jesus." Although I'm personally of the opinion that since Jesus never said to worship him, you shouldn't. But by that logic, 99% of all books written are evil and promote witchcraft because they don't say worship Jesus. The problem obviously stems from ignorant people who can barely speak English recognizing only the similarity between two words and thinking, amazingly, that there actually is a cult of people who can perform magic spells and fly around on brooms. And HELL YEAH I would join that cult if it was true. But look it on up Wikipedia. It's not the same. Like "you're" and "your."

I'm fine with joking that they worship the Devil in the Harry Potter universe, just based on the absurdity of celebrating Christmas when clearly they wouldn't be allowed to be Christians, either by Christians or by the wizarding community. It's also a joke on the commercialism of Christmas, and the fact that it largely has nothing to do with celebrating Jesus. The joke is in the fact that its origins remain the same, and the idea that wizards would worship a guy clearly less powerful than they are is laughably ironic if you stop and think about it. Besides, magic IS stereotypically associated with the Devil in modern media. See The Witches of Eastwick and Warlock for the most prominent examples. But that has never had anything to do with "real" "witches," who are essentially just hippies (I knew one in high school). If they were so offended at the comparison, it would be stupid to label themselves in that way. Somehow I doubt they're that touchy. But they obviously get off on the idea. It's fun to pretend you're a witch even though you only worship nature. You obviously reject most major religions, thus making you an outcast. And outcasts like messing with people like Christians. As long as they're not trying to set fire to you.

[AmandaGal]

Well, let's put it this way - there's no such thing as HARMFUL magic. Like, I made you poop by lighting this candle and saying "malahalahoochee" five times. If doing "magick" or being a "witcch" is harmful to Christianity, then it's only insofar as every other religion is harmful to Christianity, so why not just say everything that isn't Christianity is "magic." I think fear of magic predates general knowledge of Wicca. Hating Wicca would be based on hating "magic," not the other way around.

You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you?  Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth.  Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it.  Not for the "magic."  There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc. 

I'm fine with joking that they worship the Devil in the Harry Potter universe, just based on the absurdity of celebrating Christmas when clearly they wouldn't be allowed to be Christians, either by Christians or by the wizarding community.

There's a group of Christian witches who actually celebrate Christmas and believe in Jesus as the savior.  They just interpret the Bible differently than conservative Christians.  Some think Jesus practiced witchcraft, even and by practicing it, we can get closer to him.  That's beside the point. There's Jewish witches too.  Many "witches" just believe in nature magic and not the religious aspects associated with Wicca.  The magic can come from Jesus, God, whatever.  Wicca isn't the only witchcraft path.

I don't know why the wizard community, in Harry Potter,  would be all "you can't be [religion]" and ban the kids from celebrating Christmas.  If we are to believe that religions exist in Harry Potter (which they don't, so I don't know why you even said they'd not be Christians), shouldn't we also believe that the Wizards are Christian and Jewish, etc?  Wizarding is not a religious thing in this universe.  It's like being born with a genetic defect or red hair.  People with Klinefelter's and Red hair can be Christians too.  It just doesn't make sense.  Hogwarts is a private, British school.  They would likely celebrate Christmas, as most private, British Schools do. They would likely be majority Christian as most Brits are if we are to assume that "witchcraft" isn't a religious choice (or even a choice).

[ScottotD]

You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you?  Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth.  Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it.  Not for the "magic."  There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc. 

I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.

[bratpop]

I think the wizarding world would not allow religion because they generally are cut off from muggles. Many of the pureblood don't even understand basic concepts which could be easily clarified by a trip to the mall, so it seems unlikely they would have their own churches dedicated to every major religion. Going to a muggle church would risk exposing them due to the social interaction required, and good Lord, what about confession? So if they don't do that, and presumably they don't have wizard churches for every major religion, then they probably don't have churches for any of them. Besides, the whole protest should make it obvious that if a religion sees magic as evil, you wouldn't go to Hogwarts if you were part of that religion. That's without touching the obvious avoidance of the hotbox issue of religion being mentioned in the books. But based on what's in the books, aside from them using... books, and going to school, anything they do that's similar to muggles has some magic twist on it. So it's a bit off that they'd celebrate muggle holidays. And there are clear distinctions in the books between muggles and wizard folk. Wizards have a whole separate knowledge of history. They have their own famous figures, and sports teams, and music. Purebloods know little of muggle celebrities or popular culture, despite that making little sense. They're not simply mutants or normal people who can do magic. They have their own culture. Likely they'd have their own holidays. And with the secret knowledge of history, they'd know whether Jesus was a wizard or not, and whether the concepts behind Easter and Halloween were ridiculous. Which means Jesus being a wizard is the only logical reason why anyone but muggle born wizards would celebrate Christmas at Hogwarts. I mean, I could see them getting Christmas off, since the purebloods would want the same benefit as the muggle borns. But not them decorating the castle and having trees when most of the kids go home. Otherwise, them celebrating Christmas must be illogical and therefore fodder for humor. Muggle holidays, i.e. holidays, are based on a total lack of knowledge of magic or wizards. So if we knew about magic and wizards, those holidays would either not exist or be very different. Because you're not going to celebrate All Hallows Eve and try to keep spirits away if you know spells to keep evil spirits away. So wizards celebrating most holidays would be very silly, because they'd know better.

My goodness gracious, what an absurd discussion.

And okay, maybe some Christians hate Wicca for Wicca, but they wouldn't be the ones protesting Harry Potter's fictional magic, would they. And likely the "intelligent," ...hmm, let's say "informed" instead... Christians would reject any religion as having merit, not just Wicca. Some people like to be informed just to find reasons to hate. I mean, there are whole sites about why Harry Potter is evil in addition to people forming picket lines who haven't read it. Still wrong.

[AmandaGal]

You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you?  Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth.  Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it.  Not for the "magic."  There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc. 

I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.

Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil."  I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.

[AmandaGal]

I think the wizarding world would not allow religion because they generally are cut off from muggles. Many of the pureblood don't even understand basic concepts which could be easily clarified by a trip to the mall, so it seems unlikely they would have their own churches dedicated to every major religion. Going to a muggle church would risk exposing them due to the social interaction required, and good Lord, what about confession? So if they don't do that, and presumably they don't have wizard churches for every major religion, then they probably don't have churches for any of them.

I don't know why they wouldn't have a church. They seem to live fairly normal lives, aside from the magic.  Granted, Rowling doesn't allude to a church, but having a church doesn't seem absurd to me either in that universe.  Perhaps Jesus was a Wizard and Buddha and Allah too and they know it.  Maybe they are the reason we have different philosophies of wizarding (and we are led to believe that different schools and locations have different idealogical beliefs in Harry Potter).

Besides, the whole protest should make it obvious that if a religion sees magic as evil, you wouldn't go to Hogwarts if you were part of that religion. That's without touching the obvious avoidance of the hotbox issue of religion being mentioned in the books. But based on what's in the books, aside from them using... books, and going to school, anything they do that's similar to muggles has some magic twist on it. So it's a bit off that they'd celebrate muggle holidays.

Maybe those dumb muggles just celebrate wrong, and the wizards know the truth of the holidays though   Their Christmas was different, even as a secular Christmas (and yeah, this is an absurd topic).  Like you said, if Jesus is some super wizard and all the religious symbols were "super wizards" or "Omnipotent wizards" then Christmas would be even more powerful to the kids at Hogwarts.  They would just have it right and the Muggles would have it wrong (although, one could understand how they would mistake some superwizard for son of god).  Though, I would say that Dumbledore needs a religion too, now that he's dead.

Because you're not going to celebrate All Hallows Eve and try to keep spirits away if you know spells to keep evil spirits away. So wizards celebrating most holidays would be very silly, because they'd know better.

Who told us what t hey were celebrating at Christmas though?  For witches, Halloween is a celebration to honor the passing spirits, not to keep them away.  It's a celebration of death because death is necessary for life.  Who knows what the little munchkins were actually celebrating besides eating a lot and getting presents. Maybe they were celebrating that Jesus Christ, the super cool wizard, was attacked by muggles only to retaliate after the entombed him on that.  Who knows?  Of maybe she named it "Christmas" but they were celebrating the concept of Yule, a celebration of hope and light.  You have a Yule feast and presents are normally given. But I do agree, unless Christ was a kickass wizard, they wouldn't call it Christmas.

And okay, maybe some Christians hate Wicca for Wicca, but they wouldn't be the ones protesting Harry Potter's fictional magic, would they. And likely the "intelligent," ...hmm, let's say "informed" instead... Christians would reject any religion as having merit, not just Wicca. Some people like to be informed just to find reasons to hate. I mean, there are whole sites about why Harry Potter is evil in addition to people forming picket lines who haven't read it. Still wrong.

You said fear of magic predates fear of Wicca. I was just pointing out that they were two different things for some. I doubt the people protesting Harry Potter really know what Wicca is.  Like I said, some Christians I have spoken to find Wicca more dangerous than other religions because it is more attractive to youths and it's often presented as fun and dramatic and familiar (to Catholics, the ceremony is very familiar, the concept of prayer is very similar too).  So, it's not something completely unfamiliar like Tao or Shinto or Buddhism and it doesn't have all the steps that Judaism has, etc.

[ScottotD]

You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you?  Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth.  Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it.  Not for the "magic."  There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc. 

I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.

Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil."  I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.

Both opinions seem pretty ignorant to me but then I don't really see the difference between any orgainized belief system.  Wicca, Christianity, Scientology, etc, etc... except possibly Christians (as a whole) seem to take it on themselves to hassle other people more than the rest.

[Hebs]

 I just saw this one recently with my kid sister.   I did think it was a little weird.  I mean, it was like 9 or 10 times they say it right?

[AmandaGal]

You've never talked to an intelligent Christian have you?  Not all Christians dislike Wicca based on myth.  Many I have talked to really know what Wicca is and they think it's dangerous for the real practice of it.  Not for the "magic."  There's not a traditional sense of God, young people are very attracted to it, it masquerades as harmless, etc. 

I don't see how being against it for different reasons makes them intelligent, live and let live.

Well, by intelligent I mean well informed as opposed to, "Well, gees, thems folks turning me into a toad is evil."  I use the term to imply lack of ignorance on the subect.

Both opinions seem pretty ignorant to me but then I don't really see the difference between any orgainized belief system.  Wicca, Christianity, Scientology, etc, etc... except possibly Christians (as a whole) seem to take it on themselves to hassle other people more than the rest.

I tend to try to look inside the belief system before I judge.  I can see why Christians would be opposed to their children, friends, etc. partaking in Wicca based on the rules setup by their belief system.  I can see why they would want everyone to be Christian based on the rules of their belief system.

That being said, I never said I was "for" religion bashing. Based on their own belief, you're not to be judgmental.  You can dislike Wicca and wish for the person to convert without being pushy and offensive.  Of course, anyone who would explain to me why they find Wicca to be a danger to their church members would have to be open to discourse instead of "You go to hell, Witch."  As I said, I'm not talking about the Harry Potter nuts. I was talking about bratpop's general statement that people who don't like Wicca don't like it based on "magic."

Many clergy and practitioners of religion are very well-informed on other religions and can intelligently discuss them and tell you why they don't fit into their belief system.  Most often, the answer isn't simply "Jesus ain't in it" though that is a big sticking point .  Of course, most of them won't actively harass you about it or tell your kids are going to hell for reading a book.  Those zealots get the press, just like waked out wiccans get the press on the witch end.

It pisses me off peeves me when one assumes that every person who practices an organized religion lives in a box and doesn't know about others.  To be clergy, you have to or should know about others so you can tell people why you believe the way you do instead of the way they do.  Most often, "'cause God said it." isn't an inspiring enough answer.

[trobotcrow]

I just saw this one recently with my kid sister.   I did think it was a little weird.  I mean, it was like 9 or 10 times they say it right?

That was part of my original intent with this post. Trying to figure out the impetus behind the numerous jokes.

There are a subset of Christians who believe that magic is a power granted by the devil, and that ANY use of magic is against God.

Christians also used this tack to cause fear of the pagans. This, in combination with bringing things like the Yuletide celebrations into Christianity, was a method of converting people to Christianity.

But with regards to Harry Potter, there are books specifically about how evil Harry Potter franchise is because of it's use of magic -- which is from Satan.

My original question was whether or not all of the references in the Riff bothered anyone else, so I could see if I was over-reacting. My original thought was not, as some have pointed out, that they were making reference and fun of people who held that belief -- but that they themselves held that belief.

[bratpop]

It's not like Rifftrax isn't known for using the same joke over and over and over.

And of course they don't actually believe that fictional characters secretly worship the Devil. You can't be an ignorant moron and be funny (I suppose redneck comedy would tend to suggest otherwise, but I'm relatively sure all those guys are reasonably intelligent and just acting). If Kevin and Bill didn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, they'd be dressed as robots every day. And Mike would tell people, "Hey, MAN. I was an ASTRONAUT!" If they were zealots, I don't think they would be in this business, or laughing at movies like Touch of Satan. I mean, you can't be a light-hearted, close-minded bigot.

[trobotcrow]

It's not like Rifftrax isn't known for using the same joke over and over and over.

And of course they don't actually believe that fictional characters secretly worship the Devil. You can't be an ignorant moron and be funny (I suppose redneck comedy would tend to suggest otherwise, but I'm relatively sure all those guys are reasonably intelligent and just acting). If Kevin and Bill didn't know the difference between fantasy and reality, they'd be dressed as robots every day. And Mike would tell people, "Hey, MAN. I was an ASTRONAUT!" If they were zealots, I don't think they would be in this business, or laughing at movies like Touch of Satan. I mean, you can't be a light-hearted, close-minded bigot.

I don't think that goes hand-in-hand. I know plenty of folks who are perfectly functioning, intelligent people -- but have an unwavering belief in religion. There are ultra-religious scientists, so I don't think having a sense of humor cancels out one's ability to be a racist or a religious zealot.

Plenty of people who "know the difference between fantasy and reality" believe in an invisible old man who watches us from the sky, and sent his son down to us [who wasn't really his son, but part of himself] so he could die and go back to heaven with his father [who's really him]. People are able to compartmentalize and rationalize biases learned at an early age and still not "dress...as robots everyday".

That's what makes these kinds of biases more dangerous. What makes people like Pat Buchanan dangerous [more so than, say, Ann Coulter or Bill O'Reilly] is that some of the time he says rational things with evidenced support. True evils in the world are much more subtle.

Take the Rifftrax forum, for example. There are people who truly believe that Sarah Palin would be good for this country. How could anyone with a sense of humor be so out of touch with reality? And they must have a sense of humor -- if they're fans of MST3k and Rifftrax.

[Hebs]

Oh geez, let's not get this thread off track