Parker: Man or Woman or Astroman?

[skenderberg]

I don't think that would have worked. Venom's biggest problem nowadays was that they tried to make him a hero instead of the gritty villain he started out as. Yes, Venom does have a twisted sense of honor, but he's no goody two shoes. In early comics he would kill an "innocent" if he got in his way of destroying Peter Parker. Not quite good guy mannerisms eh? Venom is best when he hates Spidey's guts and wants to kill him, instead of making peace with the webhead. What I think should have happened is that they introduced Eddie Brock and saved Venom for a sequel with a new director (Like Guillermo Del Toro or Zack Snyder.) who'd be willing to respect the character. Raimi should have stuck to his guns and told Avi Arad and Laura Ziskin that he was not going to use a character he couldn't satisfactorily portray. Vulture should have been left in and Venom jettisoned from the script entirely.

  Aye, I agree. I'd have rather seen Venom left out of the movie entirely and held over for possibly another installment of the franchise to be portrayed correctly than the screen-minimal mockery he is for being included in Spiderman 3. Raimi's a seasoned director and he should have followed his gut on this one. Kind of the same policy with riffing. Better to have silence than bad riffs.

As for Mary Jane acting like she's the center of the universe in this movie, I can say that with most women (myself included), when one horrible thing happens to you, it sets the tone for everything else and it begins to snowball. A great day can be ruined by one little thing and suddenly everything falls apart. Stuff that normally wouldn't bug you (aka Peter's unmentioned lab partner) annoy the hell out of you and suddenly everything sucks, no matter what it is. Had perhaps Mary Jane not gotten fired from the broadway show, she might have been able to deal with Peter kissing Gwen a little more sanely. For her, it was bad thing after bad thing and coupled with Peter's insensitive behavior, reacted the only way she could. Sorry guys, but there are things women can't just shrug off as well as you.

  And Mary Jane could have also been on the rag. 

Everything you just said is totally reasonable, or would be if we were trying to interpret the actions of a real-life woman.  I think the problem here is that Mary Jane is a movie woman, and movie women--indeed movie characters in general--need to have their motivations up on the screen for everyone to see.  If you have to read that much into a character's behavior before it starts to make sense, then the filmmakers have failed rather badly at something.

In this case, nothing is shown of Mary Jane beyond a relentless determination to interpret everything in the worst possible light.  There's no "I'm hurt, even though I know I shouldn't be," or even a snowball effect as you suggest.  From her very first appearance in this film, (you know, where's she's pathetically desperate for praise after her first performance) there does not appear to be a positive bone in her body.  As this does not fit at all with previous depictions of her character, it just looks like she's being a bitch for no good reason.

[RoninFox]

Newsflash: there are probably other roles that don't involve singing. You don't see real actors bitching about their faults.

I've known quite a few actors over the years.  While some of them do in fact know what they're good at and are well balanced individuals, about just as many are highly insecure people who yes, bitch about their faults.

[Cosmic Muse]

Isn't that because Raimi didn't want Venom in the script?

That's still no reason to treat Venom like absolute shit, am I correct? Peter Jackson didn't like the Army of the Dead from the LOTR trilogy but he still put them in his movies (Even beefed up their significance in Return of the King because originally they only fought the Corsairs along with Aragorn to commandeer their ships, not eliminate Sauron's Army at Minas Tirith.) because the fans wanted them in the movie.

true, and though I don't understand anything past the words "Peter Jackson didn't like the" I think I know what your point is, and I agree with it.

The Army of the Dead were those ghostly characters Aragorn and the others encountered deep inside the mountains on their way to Minas Tirith. These guys if you saw the movie:



Peter Jackson hated them from the book but he still respected the fans enough to not make a mockery of them.

[esoobaC .T bocaJ]

Sorry, I've only seen the first one

[bratpop]

I don't remember that part. Seems like it must have been pretty crappy?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Regardless of the reasons why Mary Jane felt and acted as she did, I think that Peter Parker was totally oblivious to the feelings that were coming off her like heat from an open stove, and that was a problem.

I think the sad truth of the Mary Jane x Peter Parker/Spiderman situation is that saving somebody from falling to their death is no basis for a healthy, lasting relationship.

[bratpop]

He wasn't oblivious. He was obviously like, "WTF is your problem?" That was the correct response. WTF was her problem? She didn't even poke her nipples in this movie. Peter saw a doctor for lesser reasons.

[RoninFox]

Instead of finding fault in this situation (Was he being too self absorbed, and was she being unreasonable) can't we just agree that both of them were being whiny bitches and we shouldn't care about their relationship at all anymore?

[Fuzzy Necromancer]

Yeah, they don't make a very good couple.
I reiterate my previous point. Everytime their relationship starts going south, he saves her when she's dangling from a tall building and they make up again. This provides some superficial stimulation for the pairing, but honestly, what do they really have in common? It's just prolonging a bad couple without adressing any of their underlying conflicts. Nothing gets resolved, nothing gets worked out, no compromise is reached, no issues adressed, it's just "wow, spidy saved her, so I guess they're back together".

Basis for a relationship: Similar interests, mutual attraction, good personality dynamic, good. Saving your life, bad.

[bratpop]

He just needs to remind her, "Hey, bitch. Spider-Man picked you. Stop yer whinin'."

That's the whole basis for Superman and Lois Lane's relationship. She's a narcissist, and she bagged Superman. So she gloats about it. She doesn't whine about it like in Superman II (which I'm fairly sure was the inspiration for the Spider-Man screenplays). You have the greatest guy in your respective universe, so shut the hell up. If you don't like his spotty face (and I wouldn't blame you), make him keep the mask on. And if he doesn't want to keep the mask on, you just remind him of your nipples, and what he won't be getting that night.

Where's the relationship problem exactly? Hmm. Uh...? No, I don't know.

I heard they wanted Black Cat in the movie, so maybe she's jealous of something that got changed to "Gwen shows up and MJ is jealous... make up dialogue later." Brock being pissed about losing Gwen didn't make any sense either.

[Sheik Yerbouti]

I heard they wanted Black Cat in the movie, so maybe she's jealous of something that got changed to "Gwen shows up and MJ is jealous... make up dialogue later." Brock being pissed about losing Gwen didn't make any sense either.

I think they should have thrown in Black Cat as well because if there's one problem with Spiderman 3 it's a lack of characters.