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Intro and Q about RiffTrax legal issues

Started by Cut2Riff, March 15, 2008, 09:38:46 AM

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Raven

#15
March 16, 2008, 07:51:10 PM
Welcome to the forum.  Before you get to excited about this I'd check to see if there is actually a market for it.  No offense, but if you're talking about buying a new DVD and paying to ship all 3 disks to customers, the price would have to be above $30.00 for you to make anything on the whole process.  I'm not sure that A- people would be willing to pay that much and B- it would even be worth your time.  What you are suggesting sounds perfectly legal,  it would be the same as reauthoring a copy for a friend, if they paid for everything. 

Ortega

#16
March 16, 2008, 08:01:24 PM
While i understand your reasonings are benign, i fail to see what the goal is.  With selling mp3 files, RiffTrax can sidestep any legal issues at all, and keep the cost down, seeing as they're selling audio only.  If you want to do this because you think people might be hesitant to try rifftrax because of the distribution method, and the fact you have to sync it manually, they've already released a software player for playback on a PC(http://shop.rifftrax.com/rifftrax-player).  And Mp3 players are a dime-a-dozen, so setting up a player next to the TV isn't the rocket science people make it out to be.  Plus, there are reauthoring guides-a-plenty scattered through out the message board.

http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,413.0.html
http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,1483.0.html
http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,5479.0.html
http://www3.sympatico.ca/inch77/guide.htm

So, even if you do purchase DVDs, The RiffTrax, and send people a DVD, reauthored DVD, and a MP3 cd, my question is why?  RiffTrax is one of the few places i've seen that actually listens to customer feedback, and they also have a very open policy on letting us post reauthoring guides on their message board, and i would hate to see them have to start putting DRM or anything on the Riffs becuase of some well-meaning, but over-zealous supporter.

Cut2Riff

#17
March 16, 2008, 08:12:46 PM Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 08:24:18 PM by Cut2Riff
Howdy, Raven!

Regarding the income possibilities, I realize this is nothing I can live off of, that's for sure!  But I've heard from quite a few people that they're highly frustrated by the difficulties of creating a fully-synched version of the DVD on their own and surely a least a few would be willing to pay a fair amount for my services.  So it's a part-time service that would add a few nickels to my woefully low income, which is all I could reasonably expect.

My biggest concern is that too many people are going to want to hire me to do this for them, but if it turns out to be just a few, that's still better than a clunk on the noggin' with a ball-peen hammer, yes?

- Marty


(Hey, I want you to know that I passed up the admittedly cheesy opportunity to preface your original quotation with: "Quoth the...")




Quote from: Raven on March 16, 2008, 07:51:10 PM
Welcome to the forum.  Before you get to excited about this I'd check to see if there is actually a market for it.  No offense, but if you're talking about buying a new DVD and paying to ship all 3 disks to customers, the price would have to be above $30.00 for you to make anything on the whole process.  I'm not sure that A- people would be willing to pay that much and B- it would even be worth your time.  What you are suggesting sounds perfectly legal,  it would be the same as reauthoring a copy for a friend, if they paid for everything. 
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

Cut2Riff

#18
March 16, 2008, 08:14:44 PM Last Edit: March 16, 2008, 08:18:59 PM by Cut2Riff
Hello, Ortega, and thanks for your input.

Regarding the possibility of RiffTrax feeling it necessary to add DRM to their files, perhaps you missed this portion of a previous reply:


I'll even avoid the possible gotcha based on the digital millennium act concerning DRM issues by processing only those RiffTraxed movies without DRM.  (I don't see any possible notion that Mike & RiffTrax would feel compelled to add DRM to their RiffTraxes if I obtain some kind of permission from them to buy and download the RiffTraxes at full retail prices for each and every individual customer order, do you?)


So you say "Why?" and I say "Why not"?

- Marty


Quote from: Ortega on March 16, 2008, 08:01:24 PM
While i understand your reasonings are benign, i fail to see what the goal is.  With selling mp3 files, RiffTrax can sidestep any legal issues at all, and keep the cost down, seeing as they're selling audio only.  If you want to do this because you think people might be hesitant to try rifftrax because of the distribution method, and the fact you have to sync it manually, they've already released a software player for playback on a PC(http://shop.rifftrax.com/rifftrax-player).  And Mp3 players are a dime-a-dozen, so setting up a player next to the TV isn't the rocket science people make it out to be.  Plus, there are reauthoring guides-a-plenty scattered through out the message board.

http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,413.0.html
http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,1483.0.html
http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,5479.0.html
http://www3.sympatico.ca/inch77/guide.htm

So, even if you do purchase DVDs, The RiffTrax, and send people a DVD, reauthored DVD, and a MP3 cd, my question is why?  RiffTrax is one of the few places i've seen that actually listens to customer feedback, and they also have a very open policy on letting us post reauthoring guides on their message board, and i would hate to see them have to start putting DRM or anything on the Riffs becuase of some well-meaning, but over-zealous supporter.
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

Raven

#19
March 16, 2008, 08:29:42 PM
Quote from: Cut2Riff on March 16, 2008, 08:12:46 PM

(Hey, I want you to know that I passed up the admittedly cheesy opportunity to preface your original quotation with: "Quoth the...")


You wouldn't have been the first. 

MrTorso

#20
March 16, 2008, 10:43:14 PM
I would bet that you won't get permission to re-distribute RiffTrax. Too many gray areas. You say you will only process movies with out DRM.  There aren't a lot of those that is for sure. Most major label DVDs are "protected" by CSS (Content Scramble System) and breaking that violates the DMCA.
Check out my webshop for political, punk, pop culture buttons, patches and more! www.bigmeanpunk.com

Cut2Riff

#21
March 17, 2008, 04:23:07 AM
Hello, MrTorso,

Why do you think Mike and RiffTrax would forbid me from buying as many RiffTraxes as I could as long as everything is perfectly above board and legal?  I'm not actually "re-distributing" anything, and I'm certainly not going to charge even one penny  "markup" for any of the original source materials!  Don't you get it?  I'd be buying the movies and buying then downloading the RiffTraxes as an ordinary end-user/consumer and simply passing along the purchase price without one cent of markup.  My fee would ONLY cover the service I'd provide of synchronizing them, and nothing whatsoever in retail or even wholesale add-on costs.

Why so negative?  I don't see how this can hurt anyone in the tiniest degree whatsoever, but I can see a (probably very small) increase in RiffTrax sales.  What's the problem you see in that?

I don't see any gray areas in that domain whatsoever, and the attorneys I've retained to look into the matter thus far raised no objection to that end at all.  Their concerns are strictly in the copyright issue with Hollywood, and they've discovered and reported no grounds for any legal concern with the RiffTrax side of things at all.

As for there being few DRM-free movies, that's simply not the case.  For example, I've just finished processing "Harry Potter and the Sorcerer's Stone" with the downloaded RiffTrax I purchased yesterday for my brother and his kids, and that had no DRM on it!  If you were to have kept up with the industry's trade papers, you'd have learned that the trend is quickly running AWAY from DRM, not towards more!

And it is already perfectly legal to make a copy of any movie you legally own, even if that means needing to bypass any DRM or CSS or any other copy protection scheme on the DVD.  That is a final and no longer contested legal ruling.  Fair Use protects such things.

I would be the full, legal owner of the fully royalty-paid source materials throughout the entire process.  At the end, I would simply transfer full ownership of all the materials to the final customer.  No big whoop, as Mike Myers in drag used to say.

So lighten up, okay?  Try not to rain on my parade any harder than you have to!



- Marty




Quote from: MrTorso on March 16, 2008, 10:43:14 PM
I would bet that you won't get permission to re-distribute RiffTrax. Too many gray areas. You say you will only process movies with out DRM.  There aren't a lot of those that is for sure. Most major label DVDs are "protected" by CSS (Content Scramble System) and breaking that violates the DMCA.
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

Minnesota

#22
March 17, 2008, 05:13:30 AM
Not trying to come off too harsh, since you seem pretty reasonable and I'd like to see you continue to post the forums but its illegal to distribute much less sell unauthorized copywritten material. Obviously Rifftrax wouldn't want their name associated with breaking the law. There really is no valid argument (in my opinion) ... everything on the DVD is copywritten, the menus, extras, trailers, etcetera. Its basically accepted that people can make backup copies for personal use (major grey area) but 'distribution' is illegal..

MrTorso

#23
March 17, 2008, 11:04:39 AM
You are not the first to want to go into business this way and I know that RiffTrax asked another user to stop offering a similar service.
Check out my webshop for political, punk, pop culture buttons, patches and more! www.bigmeanpunk.com

Cut2Riff

#24
March 18, 2008, 02:24:04 AM
Thank you, Mayor.

Might I suggest re-reading the entire thread?  I received on Monday a non-official, non-binding opinion from an attorney associated with one of my friends to the effect that the plan I described would be perfectly legal and would not in any way violate either the copyright laws or the Digital Millennium act.

I am waiting until I have sufficient funds to commission a fully researched, formal opinion from a respected First Amendment scholar and attorney, but the research I've done on my own strongly indicates that I'd be completely in the clear.

- Marty


Quote from: Minnesota on March 17, 2008, 05:13:30 AM
Not trying to come off too harsh, since you seem pretty reasonable and I'd like to see you continue to post the forums but its illegal to distribute much less sell unauthorized copywritten material. Obviously Rifftrax wouldn't want their name associated with breaking the law. There really is no valid argument (in my opinion) ... everything on the DVD is copywritten, the menus, extras, trailers, etcetera. Its basically accepted that people can make backup copies for personal use (major grey area) but 'distribution' is illegal..
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

Cut2Riff

#25
March 18, 2008, 02:24:54 AM
Might you be able to direct me to more information on that, please?

- Marty


Quote from: MrTorso on March 17, 2008, 11:04:39 AM
You are not the first to want to go into business this way and I know that RiffTrax asked another user to stop offering a similar service.
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

gammer

#26
March 19, 2008, 10:32:11 AM
Hey Marty,

Welcome.

Mr.Torso and I have been board members here from 'the beginning' and we were among the first to start re-authoring RiffTrax (in fact our input has helped with most of the reauthoring guides that you find on this forum), I can tell you that "we've seen it all".

That being said, I think the best way to promote RiffTrax is through education...meaning, inform those who are not tech savy about how easy it is to sync, inform them about the RiffTrax player which will sync it for them, and if they are brave enough...direct them to the Tech Support section of this board to see many different ways to reauthor. And in the end if they still aren't willing, then this product isn't for them. At the very least, there are no legal issues in helping folks do it themselves.

I don't want to discourage your willingness to help. But you need to consider the legal implications of 'advertising' that type of service.

-gammer

Core

#27
March 19, 2008, 01:32:56 PM
Greetings Marty. Welcome to the RiffTrax.com Round Table!

I've been living in Saginaw, Michigan since last June and being from Miami, Florida I'm still waiting for the "official" first day of spring which I believe is Friday the 21st. But I know being from FL I won't be comfortable up here till around April or May lol.

Anyway, again welcome.  :highfive:

Cut2Riff

#28
March 20, 2008, 02:02:15 PM
Jello again, gammer!

You've probably forgotten me.  I thanked and praised you in particular in my DIY RiffTrax synch guide I referenced earlier in this thread.  It's at :Traxer19.home.comcast.net.

Note that it doesn't work, so I had to buy some expensive software in order to readily do what I wanted to do, which is keep everything intact and just add the RiffTrax.  Although I expect there are other solutions, the one I'm using now is ideal except for the very high cost of the commercial software involved.

So I just figured that there are probably people who would appreciate having me employ my very expensive hardware and software to process their RiffTrax movies for them on their behalf.  That's all I'd be offering.

As for advertising, I haven't done that yet and I'm not yet  100% sure whether I would or not because I have a very likely contract position coming up in San Diego (current home of RiffTrax, or at least the Nelsons) which may make all of this moot (I'd probably be too busy to process RiffTraxes, but maybe not).

In any event, I plan to approach Mike and RiffTrax to ask for their permission first.  As I indicated in an earlier post, I don't think I'll even ask for OFFICIAL permission in case doing so might get them into some gray areas, but I'd like to get some kind of UNofficial, informal "We're not going to try to stop you" word from them.

- Marty



Quote from: gammer on March 19, 2008, 10:32:11 AM
Hey Marty,

Welcome.

Mr.Torso and I have been board members here from 'the beginning' and we were among the first to start re-authoring RiffTrax (in fact our input has helped with most of the reauthoring guides that you find on this forum), I can tell you that "we've seen it all".

That being said, I think the best way to promote RiffTrax is through education...meaning, inform those who are not tech savy about how easy it is to sync, inform them about the RiffTrax player which will sync it for them, and if they are brave enough...direct them to the Tech Support section of this board to see many different ways to reauthor. And in the end if they still aren't willing, then this product isn't for them. At the very least, there are no legal issues in helping folks do it themselves.

I don't want to discourage your willingness to help. But you need to consider the legal implications of 'advertising' that type of service.

-gammer
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...

Cut2Riff

#29
March 20, 2008, 02:05:09 PM
Hi, cogink!

Thanks for posting!  Michigan will warm up plenty before TOO long, so don't despair.  It won't be Florida, but you'll like it fine.

As I wrote in the previous post, I may well be moving BACK to sunny San Diego soon (I lived there for 12 years), but I'll miss Michigan (a little, anyway...)

Take care,

- Marty

Quote from: cogink on March 19, 2008, 01:32:56 PM
Greetings Marty. Welcome to the RiffTrax.com Round Table!

I've been living in Saginaw, Michigan since last June and being from Miami, Florida I'm still waiting for the "official" first day of spring which I believe is Friday the 21st. But I know being from FL I won't be comfortable up here till around April or May lol.

Anyway, again welcome.  :highfive:
(The Firesign Theater sez:) And he came! He came unto the house of his mother's brother's servant saying: "Where am I?" ... Yea, in the land of reversible cups, and sanitary pedestals. And he lay in that land a long time, like worms out of a hot cheese log...
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