The Dark Knight (SPOILERS)

[Doktor Sleepless]

Should we go back a few pages to when I stopped posting in the thread and had several pages of me being, in decen terms "ragged" on for saying i don't like this film as much as others do and actually backing up as to why?

[Fortis]

hey Dok, you accused everybody of rehashing reviews, I am under that "everybody" so I will say that my review was strictly from a writers stand point. Not from what I read from anybody else.

[Doktor Sleepless]

I shall check out your review in a bit/later then and try to have a real discussion of this movie with someone who hopefully don't just yell at me "This movie is so good though", when I'm explaining to them why it isn't.

[The Dark Knight]

Wait, so he is using his comic intellect to offend everyone on here because he didn't like this film. I'm a big big Batman comic reader and this is doesn't really follow the comics but makes it more appropriate for all of the audience to understand. Going on a bash on this movie is ridiculosis because this is easily the best superhero movie ever made. I would hate to see you against Joel Shumacher's piles of poo.

[The Dark Knight]

I shall check out your review in a bit/later then and try to have a real discussion of this movie with someone who hopefully don't just yell at me "This movie is so good though", when I'm explaining to them why it isn't.

Well, I hate to break it to you but you are in the very small minority that don't like it. On IMDB it currently resides as the highest rating movie of all-time over classics like 'The Godfather' and 'The Shawshank Redemption' with an outstanding 9.5 by over 20,000 people. It also has a 96% RT rating which is outstanding since the last film only had 84%. I think its just you wanting to complain.

[Doktor Sleepless]

Yeah I agree George Bush deserved to win again, we also deserve Arnold to run California for ever. Suffice to say, everything you said about me is wrong. Anywho! I am off to work. I shall talk to you guys later.

Also Oldboy is better than Batman in every way shape or form and unlike Batman truly destroys the comic the movie came from.

Talk later guys!

[The Dark Knight]

Wow....

[Nick]

While I agree with the Dok on the whole majority argument being useless, the rest of his post is kind of confusing.

Want something substantial? Keaton was the better Batman, because Keaton was only as serious as the movie/script/world/etc let him. No more, no less. Certain people in this movie and people watching the movie could learn something from that. Now I didn't insult one person with this post. Let us see how all of a sudden everyone will either attack me, accuse me, tell on me, or all of the above, while all I said, as Redux put was "I don't like this movie as much as all of you. I disagree".

Not going to attack you, but I do disagree with your assertion that Keaton was the better Batman. After recently rewatching the original Batman movie, it makes me realize how campy it was, and how much better Batman Begins is. I mean, Batman is a stone-cold killer in the Tim Burton movie, mowing down Jokers minions in his Bat-jet, which totally isn't Batman, more like Frank Castle. At the end of the day though, anyone can dress up in the bat-suit. Bale, IMO, is the better Bruce Wayne, making him the best Batman thus far.

[GregMcduck]

An interesting thought I read on another forum:

The reason the boat full of civilians didn't blow up the other boat is because they're cowards, not that they're good people. They voted to do it, just none of them actually could. On the other boat the guy holding the detonator let Zeus/Tiny Lister/Big Evil Black Guy take the detonator thinking he was going to blow up the other boat (and there was no opposition voiced to this idea.) He wanted it but couldn't do it himself. Really only Zeus is a decent human being, and given that it's a comic book movie I think "super bad ass convict is the only good guy" is pretty fitting. The moral characters (Rachel, Batman) know and express why they can't kill people, nobody on the boat did anything close to that, and I would argue that their motivation for not doing it is pretty far from why Batman doesn't kill The Joker.

Thoughts?

[bettertomorrowamy]

The fact that only the criminal on that boat could make a decision is why Gotham is in need of Batman.  Everybody in Gotham is indifferent and morally ambiguous.  Only the criminals have the balls to step up and do anything whether that "anything" is bad or good.  This Universe is so different from the Superman Universe.  The Batman Universe is full of morally devoid and lackluster individuals.  In the Superman Universe the people will stand up for themselves and do know what is right and wrong.  They cheer when evil is defeated, and get pissed when evil prevails.  They need Superman to help them.  In Batman's Universe the people could really care less either way.  Everybody is much more self-absorbed.  If they would just stand up for themselves they wouldn't need Batman.

[Fortis]

The fact that only the criminal on that boat could make a decision is why Gotham is in need of Batman.  Everybody in Gotham is indifferent and morally ambiguous.  Only the criminals have the balls to step up and do anything whether that "anything" is bad or good.  This Universe is so different from the Superman Universe.  The Batman Universe is full of morally devoid and lackluster individuals.  In the Superman Universe the people will stand up for themselves and do know what is right and wrong.  They cheer when evil is defeated, and get pissed when evil prevails.  They need Superman to help them.  In Batman's Universe the people could really care less either way.  Everybody is much more self-absorbed.  If they would just stand up for themselves they wouldn't need Batman.

Good analysis, and I have to say, its much more interesting when people are morally indifferent. Chaotic Neutral I guess. It makes the hero's journey much more interesting when he is viewed as more than just a hero.

[Thorns of Crimson Death]

The fact that only the criminal on that boat could make a decision is why Gotham is in need of Batman.  Everybody in Gotham is indifferent and morally ambiguous.  Only the criminals have the balls to step up and do anything whether that "anything" is bad or good.  This Universe is so different from the Superman Universe.  The Batman Universe is full of morally devoid and lackluster individuals.  In the Superman Universe the people will stand up for themselves and do know what is right and wrong.  They cheer when evil is defeated, and get pissed when evil prevails.  They need Superman to help them.  In Batman's Universe the people could really care less either way.  Everybody is much more self-absorbed.  If they would just stand up for themselves they wouldn't need Batman.

I really can't elaborate on this further.  You stole my thunder.  You magnificent bastard  .

[daltysmilth]

The cell phone was more of a political statement rather than a neat device, which is why I was able to suspend my disbelief for that one because it did raise a few interesting questions. 

I think you're reading too much into it.  I mean, why would they make a political statement in a Batman movie?  While there's definitely political satire in the comics (see the Dark Knight Returns), I don't think they'd want to use a Batman movie to make a political statement, because you risk alienating half the potential audience that way.  

I never saw the cell phone thing as a political statement, beyond the obvious "no one person should have too much power, and the people who are most qualified to wield great power are often the ones who are most reluctant to use it."  But that's nothing that's not been said in other movies.  And even if it was the most profound political statement ever made, the way they made it was poorly executed.  It doesn't appear until close to the end of act two, and there's some brief dialogue about how no one should have this much power, Lucius Fox announces his plan to resign, and then there really isn't any follow-up.  

[mearnest]

Excellent point BTA.  Has it occurred to anyone else that the boats were actually given their own detonators.  It would be the ultimate joke after all.  The most immoral, self-absorbed people decide to blow up the other boat but just wind up killing themselves.  Also, being given their own detonators would remove the risk of the boats being out of signal range from each other.

[gbeenie]

BTW, a bit of stunt casting I'm surprised no one has mentioned before now:

Nestor Carbonell, who plays Gotham's mayor, was also on the cast of the live-action The Tick series-- where he played "Batmanuel."