Marvel Shared Film Universe: MCU Theatrical & TV (discussion, crossovers, etc.)

[LucasM]

Just finished watching Secret Invasion for the second time.

There's something that bugged me the first time, that bugs me even more the second, and that is the ending - which I presumed was MEANT to be an emotional/relationship denouement for Fury.

I simply DO NOT BUY that - in the apparent DECADES that they've been together - that Fury would not have asked to know his wife's actual name and see her as she is.

I just don't fucking buy that he'd not have said, SHORTLY after learning she was a Skrull, "may I please know your name and see your actual face? [change] Beautiful!"

For me, that ruins the romantic arc for the entire series.  It wasn't about him 'learning to accept a Skrull' (where a last-minute reveal would be the culmination of his acceptance), it was 'learning to have - and rely on - a PARTNER'.  Her race is irrelevant to that.  So such a 'reveal' is, at best, sensationalistic TV crap.

[LucasM]

Well, this definitely blows chunks!  Fuckin' Iger!

In early February 2023, Disney CEO Bob Iger announced that the company would be re-evaluating the volume of content it output as a way to cut costs over the next few years.[11] Shortly after, when reflecting on the amount of Disney+ content released for Phase Four in a short time frame, Feige anticipated that Marvel Studios would look to space out the releases of the Phase Five and Six Disney+ series or put fewer out each year "so they can each get a chance to shine".[9]

The start of the 2023 Writers Guild of America strike in May 2023 was not expected to impact the MCU projects in production, or preparing to begin production, at that time, namely Fantastic Four, with Marvel Studios reportedly planning to shoot what they could during principal photography and make any necessary writing adjustments during each project's already scheduled reshoots.[12] In June, Disney delayed Fantastic Four to May 2, 2025, Avengers: The Kang Dynasty to May 1, 2026, and Avengers: Secret Wars to May 7, 2027,[13] in part due to the writers' strike and Disney's intentions to improve the quality of MCU content from writing through post-production after disappointing reception and lower post-COVID-19 pandemic box office earnings for several recently released films.[14] The following month, Iger stated the company would be reducing spending and creation of Marvel content, admitting that Marvel Studios' expansion into Disney+ series and more films had "diluted focus and attention" after a number of underachieving films at the box office in Phases Four and Five.[15][16]

From Wikipedia.

Just after I'd been so psyched because they were set to have four films a year plus 3-4 Disney+ series.


EDIT: there is a strong part of me that thinks this is Iger's way of saying "fuck you" to Feige, since Feige got Iger taken out of the MCU loop.  He seems like the kind of petty prick who'd do something like that.

[Pak-Man]

Not gonna go to bat for Iger, but the concern is valid. I'm still eating up every little morsel they'll serve and begging for more, but a lot of people I talk to are feeling "Superhero fatigue" from having to keep up with 4+ TV shows and however-many movies a year. I think the comic book fans are used to that sort of thing, but the general public is gonna find the mythology increasingly more dense when they want to jump into the latest movie. They burnt fans out on Star Wars by releasing too much too fast. It might be best if they pump the breaks a little bit.

[Edward J Grug III]

The series have stopped us from watching.

The fact that most of the series start strong and then fizzle out and the fact that I feel like I need to do homework to watch a film has taken a lot of the fun out of it for me.

It doesn't help that the films have gotten much more hit or miss (the last one we watched was Thor 4), but I'd happily give them a couple of hours still, if it weren't for the ever growing hours of mostly pretty average TV.

Having watched WandaVision (that was so good until a very weak ending) and then watched Dr Strange, I know for sure I don't want to be watching one without the other.

So we stopped, at least for now.

[Cyrusso]

TBH, none of the Marvel Series have really disappointed me. What REALLY disappointed me however, was many of the shitty reactions to shows like She-Huik and Miss Marvel. The fact that people were such dicks about inclusivity and shit really made me sad.

This is definitely a HUGE segue, so please forgive me... but after playing the game Undertale, I honestly(but admittedly naively) thought that people were starting to see women, women of color and trans women as human beings, worthy of rights, respect and dignity. Goddamn, sometimes I am such a hopeless optimist, and that's why I keep fucking disappointing myself... because my faith in humanity is just way too high sometimes.

Wandavision? Great. Falcon and Winter Soldier? Great. What if? Meh... Hawkeye? Good. Loki? EXCELLENT. Moon Knight? Good. Secret Invasion? Good. Miss Marvel? Very good. She hulk? Good.

Like I said, it wasn't the series that disappointed me, it's the reaction to them that made me so depressed. I remember years ago Darth Geek telling me that what really matters is how I feel about the show/movie. The problem is that it's very difficult to separate myself from the media that I enjoy. As a result, I... perhaps irrationally project some aspect of myself onto the media, and as a result, it feels like a strike against me personally and my ego. Like I said... not rational, but I guess it's understandable on some level.

I know many, MANY people HATE the Sequel trilogy, but honestly, I still love it with a huge part of my heart.

I am going to see The Marvels Thursday afternoon, and I'm trying to control my hype so I don't end up disappointing myself.

[LucasM]

I do understand the financial aspect of this.  Because of actually the NON-standard superheroes (e.g. Elementals, Shang-Chi) I can understand the reduced box office.  They also have made some seriously bad choices (Thor 4 being the first MCU film where I thought, "OK: this is just shit pretty much start to finish").  I feel if they were still going with more mainstream hero types, and not treating the material with contempt (the downfall of most pre-MCU Marvel films), the 'box office fatigue' wouldn't be remotely as much of an issue.

And I'm not totally sure it is box office fatigue... during COVID isolation, people changed how they interacted with a lot of things.  I've talked with a few people that said they struggled with simply visiting with others after COVID because they got out of practice with in-person conversation and interactions.  Going to a theater simply may no longer be as internally desirable to people unless there is a standout event (e.g. like the Barbie movie which rightfully kicked butt at theaters).

Of course, there is also that some of the films since COVID (like 'Black Widow', the aforementioned 'Thor 4') are simply weaker stories, so the trust that a trip to a theater is worthwhile may have eroded.  Lesser stories are expected to do more poorly at the box office.  And, while I think 'Black Panther: Wakanda Forever' was excellent for storytelling and character, it was missing a key aspect of the Marvel films: fun (though understandably so, as fitting "fun" into a film almost entirely about grieving and threat is not an easy task).

I also get the Disney+ series causing issues.  When they were introduced, they were supposed to be a "supplement" to the films.  But as you said, EJG3, watching 'Doctor Strange in the Multiverse of Madness' would be FAR less meaningful (and actually make far less sense) without seeing WandaVision first ("who the fuck are those kids?  Why is she willing to kill to get to them?  How and why did she turn 'bad'?").

I think Disney/Marvel fucked up in waiting so incredibly long before releasing Disney+ series on home video.  WandaVision should've been for sale as Blu-rays or DVDs before Dr Strange 2 hit theaters.  Same with Loki at least before 'Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania' (the first multiverse film) came out.  And, most likely, Ms. Marvel maybe before 'The Marvels'.  But many of the films and shows are still independent of one-another so far (not sure how many will remain that way of the D+ series).

It also kinda' strikes me like when I was collecting comics: when you run into a new character you find interesting, and there's the little blurb at the bottom of the panel on where they last appeared, you hunt down that issue to find out more.  But like EJG3 said, that's not how average people generally go about their fiction ingesting.

I've enjoyed over half of the D+ series enough to rewatch them a few times.  Favorites being WandaVision, Loki season 1, Ms. Marvel, and Moon Knight.  Least favorites What If?, and Secret Invasion.

Just since January 2021 (WandaVision), we've received the equivalent of 22 films worth of content from D+, on top of the eight films.  So we're definitely not hurting.  This is, however, the main genre I enjoy watching and rewatching, so having this much cut is frustrating.  [Not sure how much the sale in the mid-'80s of 85% of my comic collection (I had all Marvel superhero and monster comics from 1961-1986 except about 15 issues total missing from across Journey Into Mystery (early Thor), Tales to Astonish (Ant-Man), and Tales of Suspense (early Iron Man) contributes to the desire to see more.]

And Cyrusso, I agree wholeheartedly about how depressing the racist/misogynist bullshit expressed around the female/PoC shows has been.  With that, I try my best not to take it to heart.  The traitor to America and its ideals, 45, has these people far more vocal than they were before.  But psychology shows in extinguishing 'bad behavior', it gets more prominent before it goes away (unless, like Nazi Germany, it is allowed to take over and expand further).  Thankfully, the elections just this week has shown that America is collectively saying, "yeah... that's not gonna' work for me any more..." with those extremes.

I think my frustration was with them building up the hype over three or four years that they'd be releasing four films and four shows, then, just when that was about to start, them saying, "oh, yeah, we're not gonna' do that."  It appears it will for the foreseeable future be three films, and two shows per year.  That is going from an average of roughly 2-hours of newly released material each month (four films at ~2 hours of story each, and four D+ series at just over 4 hours story each) to just over 1/2 that.

I do still think Iger being a vindictive prick has something to do with it, because with the new variety in the films produced [this multi-part story ranging from Shang-Chi, to Eternals, to BP: Wakanda Forever to Blade] there will be more variance in box office take than between Captain America, Iron Man, and Thor.  I seem to recall a dip in box office with the first Ant-Man film, as well (though Guardians was an unexpected hit).  The less well-known characters would likely take more time to catch on.

Iger's, "so they can each get a chance to shine" is disingenuous.  It seems far more like that he's thinking, "so we can milk everything we can out of what we produce, whether people like them or not."  Because let's face it: if I think a film or show sucks, I am not going to force myself to watch it just because something related that I'd rather see isn't available.


Something that may be heresy, but I also think there's a bit of an issue with Feige at this point, too.  I mean, between 'Black Widow', 'Eternals', and 'Thor: Love and Thunder', there's been the same 'miss' count already in the 8 films of the current phases than there were in the 22/23 films making up The Infinity Saga (to me, 'Thor: Dark World' and 'Ragnarok' as well as 'The Incredible Hulk' are the only films I wouldn't choose to rewatch from there).  But he signed off on all these films, so it is his decision-making that are bringing lower-quality material to market.

And, when films get a return of only about twice their cost, ultimately that is considered 'breaking even'.  With a few of the current run of films only getting about twice their cost in box office receipts, I ultimately concur that Iger (dick or not) is likely doing the responsible thing.  I just don't like it. 

[LucasM]

I realize I could have edited the prior post, but I SINCERELY doubt anyone would re-read it to find a new idea that I added, so I'll add the new idea here:


I happened to have an idea that might address - or certainly TEST - many of the theories we've brought up in this discussion.

Mark both MCU theatrical films, and Disney+ series with either a "Free-standing" or "Multiverse" indicator.

This way, one can find out if the drop in viewership is because there is too much cross-referencing that is the problem.

e.g. 'Loki' would be clearly a "Multiverse"; 'Moon Knight' clearly a "Free-standing" in the D+ arenas.  In the MCU films, 'Ant-Man & the Wasp: Quantumania' is clearly a "Multiverse" entry, while 'Thor: Love and Thunder' is clearly a "Free-standing" film.

Then, in order to determine if any given franchise is worthwhile, only the % box office within each category would be compared (as one might expect the "Multiverse" to be more consistent, but potentially lower than the "Free-Standing" ones).

Because it may not be superhero fatigue per se, but "integrated storylines" that are the problem.  Because thus far, the crossovers appear to have taken place with the superheros, not the less-superhero-y films.  [e.g. Shang-Chi is a fantasy film, not a superhero film, and is connected to little else until Wong showed up at the end of it.]

If the crossovers are the problem, then that would be incredibly valuable information to Marvel/Feige/Iger, that the stories need to be scaled back, or at least not go cross-platform.  Honestly, in thinking through all this, with all your comments, esp EJG3's on WV and Dr Str2, I realized that ultimately it might be preferable if the D+ shows and films were largely separate, almost like the separation of the Loeb/Feige TV/films.  Two films linked, or two D+ series, would be fine, but not from one medium to the other.

Because yeah, with something I was not as invested in, I'd say, "ahhh... fuck it all..." if something required me to pay monthly money to get part of a story I paid to see on the silver screen, or the reverse.  [e.g. If D+'s Mandalorian required in-theater films to understand what was going on, I'd give it up, regardless of liking it.  I just don't like 95-98% of Star Wars stuff and watching films would be a threshold I just wouldn't be willing to go over for it.]

[Cyrusso]

Lucas I think you'll enjoy The Marvels, because in addition to actual dramatic consequences to our trio of super-awesome heroines, There's some very cool dramatic moments that involve other characters from the MCU. There's also some extremely cool moments involving the Flerken, in a way that is creative as fuck and funny as fuck.

I also like the way that the villain is not some one-dimensional idiot whose motives are beyond revenge, and tie deeper with some interesting themes the movie dares go to, that unfortunately I can't go into without spoiling things.

I love the way the story was told. It presented us with a situation that reminded me of Civil war... where Superheroes sometimes are their own worst enemies, where sometimes good intentions are the road to hell.

In addition, the performances by Brie Larson, Teyonnah Paris and Iman Vellani are fantastic - We get to see Carol Danvers really show off fear, apprehension, regret, her only real weaknesses. The end of the movie was also fun and heart-warming.

And the end credits scene? Freaking awesome!

[Pak-Man]

I also adored Marvels. I was worried they'd let the TV show-based Marvels take the back seat to Captain Marvel, but they all get a chance to shine. It's fun to watch Iman Vellani's Ms. Marvel because it feels like the actress is having as much fun as the character. She stole the show for me, but everyone was great and it was fun to watch.

[LucasM]

I also adored Marvels. I was worried they'd let the TV show-based Marvels take the back seat to Captain Marvel, but they all get a chance to shine. It's fun to watch Iman Vellani's Ms. Marvel because it feels like the actress is having as much fun as the character. She stole the show for me, but everyone was great and it was fun to watch.

I am so glad to hear that they had the Marvels on equal footing in the film.  I get frustrated for films like this to be too messed up from my head injuries to be able to go to a theater, having to wait for them all until home video releases.

Yeah, in watching the Disney+ "Assembled" show on Ms. Marvel, I saw how geeked out Iman Vellani was with the whole of her being in the MCU.  It definitely showed in her D+ show, glad it being visible was maintained in the film.

[Cyrusso]

I remember in 2018/2019 one of the things people were complaining about was like "Oh but Captain Marvel is basically OP as hell!", as if that ever stopped the 1978 Superman film.

In The Marvels... we most certainly get to see Carol Danvers' weaknesses, on full, and painful display. As I said earlier... the consequences of her actions(destroying the supreme intelligence) was the cause of the events of the film. Or at least, that is the implication anyway. It was very deep, and sobering even, to see Carol confront herself(in a way).

I found it to be a meaningful and introspective film. I also got to say I am glad that even though people talk of "superhero fatigue" ALL the time(which to some extent, I understand), at least the MCU films are not resorting to obnoxious superhero tropes and keeping themselves at least somewhat fresh and creative. For example... one of the tropes I absolutely despise in superhero films is "Superhero loses his powers... and they've got 90 minutes(give or take) to get them back". This is in essence, why I can't stand Superman 2, Spiderman 2, that one episode of Lois and Clark where Superman loses his powers, and that one(maybe two) episodes of Smallville where Clark loses his powers.

It's kind of like "He's on the run from the law, and he's gotta clear his name, or else go to the big house forever!". It's really stupid, pointless, lazy, and takes little to no effort to write. I guess it could be fun if written correctly... but generally speaking, I really abhor movies that take away a hero's powers for no solid, dramatic reason. At least in Thor there was a good, dramatic reason(To have him EARN the power back in a way that's... I guess arguably organic).

I wouldn't mind seeing them shake things up a little bit, by being less villain focused and give us some interesting character studies, such as in the Eternals, which i thought was actually at the very least, decent.

I saw the box office for The Marvels was disappointing... but I'm not really surprised, given how protracted the writers strike was. I don't love Disney, given how they're a rich-ass company who refused to cave into very reasonable demands from the writers and actors... so that's very disappointing to me. Disney can easily afford to treat their employees good and decently, with little to no effort. To me, the blow to the reputation is FAR more important than their bottom lines, and maybe Disney needs to keep that in mind.

I have a philosophy now: My kindness ends where greed begins.

[Pastor of Muppets]

I thought The Marvels was okay.  Not bad, but I enjoyed it less than most Marvel movies.  It seemed really short, and it felt like it was over before it began.  Also, Dar-ben didn't feel like a credible threat.  It felt a lot like they were weakening Captain Marvel just to make Dar-ben appear stronger.  She was a pretty strong villain though, considering she seemed to destroy two entire planets. 

[Cyrusso]

The Finale of Loki was absolutely wonderful. It's pretty mind-blowiing and really fantastic to see this theme going on in the MCU film and TV universe lately: the object is not necessarily to defeat evil people... but to make them better.

Spiderman: No way home did that absolutely beautifully. We saw that theme continued in Multiverse of Madness, where the villain is most definitely Wanda, but mostly how love can be twisted towards evil, where in the end... she "sacrified" herself... even though there's no doubt she will return(just not in another season of Wandavision).

We kind of saw MODOK get... redeemed. speaking of, I LOVED how they brought the primary villain from Ant-Man back and made him into MODOK, which I hope you will agree, was fucking hilarious.

In Guardians of the Galaxy 3, there's no redeeming the High Evolutionary. The movie is mostly just about how... sigh... the GoTG are truly a family. Believe me, it cringes me to no fucking end to use such an obnoxiously tired cliche, but unlike the FATF movies... you believed these people would give anything for their litle buddies, whether it be the gun-toting and loveable Rocket, or the equally loveable Cosmo.

I actually love Cosmo so much, I have a shirt bearing her likeness.

In the Marvels.... Carol wanted to redeem Dar-Benn. I think there was at least some intent there, because Carol, Monica(Photon), and Kamala clearly didn't intend to kill Dar-Benn. They clearly wanted to help her be better... but sometimes redemption is not possible.

But my point is with Loki... we started with a Villian who is definitely evil... and we saw he had the capacity for good in Infinity War... which is what made his cruel death at the hands of Thanos so tragic. To see him murdered so brutally, just as he changed his allegiance, was heart-breaking.

But Loki seasons 1 and 2 is where we don't just see Loki's potential... we see how his place in the cosmos has more meaning than anything... He's greater than the greatest gods, he's become the person who weaves the fabric of time and the very universe together, the only one, whose complete familiarirty with chaos and mischief is the perfect being to weave the timelines, the universe together. To put it simply... Loki has kind of become the Force from Star Wars. That's how I see it anyway. Sure, it might be a bit of a poetic exaggeration, but his change from complete villain to a being whose magnanimous nature is incalculable. He's changed himself, in a way that would make Thor and Odin extremely proud. Giving your life is heroic, but giving your ENTIRE existence, for the rest of your existence to keeping the universe from destroying itself is bold and immensely beautiful. Loki... in a way, is THE hero.

Final Thought about Loki season 2: Loki is easily worthy of Mjolnir.

[LucasM]

Cyrusso, I agree wholeheartedly with your praise of the change in MCU films to "make people's lives better - even the 'bad guys' - instead of just ending them". I also agree with your assessment of Loki (both the show and the god/God).  For him to go from such a selfish beginning to such a selfless end was very moving.  And with the writing, and Hiddleston's incredible acting, believable.

It took until Loki season 2 was over, and I could binge-watch the entire thing in a day, that I could appreciate JUST how excellent this season was.  (Including that first week's-episode-at-a-time viewing, I've seen it three times now.)  When I was watching an episode a week, I just couldn't hold on to the details that held the story together so carefully from one week to the next, and particularly not from October 5 to November 9.  As a 'TV mini-series' it was good.  As a 4 1/4 hour film, it was excellent!

I also noticed that this season was like a stage play, most of it was on a VERY limited number of locations, so there was a sort-of increased intimacy for the massive events.  In Loki season 2 I also enjoyed the times they modified the opening "Marvel Studios" intro.  Particularly making the tune an early 1900s tinkly early-jazz piano ditty for the late-1800s episode was hilarious, then for the final episode, the near-backwards visuals set a different tone that made it clear things were 'off'.


I am also 100% in agreement with your assessment of MODOK.  I couldn't have imagined the character working in the more realistic world of the MCU, but the WAY they brought MODOK to life made perfect sense.  In the surreal landscape of the Quantum Realm, he didn't look remotely out of place.  And, with Ant-Man being on the more comedic side of the MCU, yes, the way it was presented was hilarious (Scott: "your legs: it's like a Baby Bjorn!" and "oh!  It's an acronym!  But wouldn't that be MODOFK?")  I also enjoyed the visual consistency from Ant-Man and the Wasp: Quantumania and Loki season 2 also, with the spaghettification matching from one to the other (in A-M a t W:W when a Scott alternate turns into Giant Man while trying to retrieve Kang's power core, and the many versions of Timely that were all strung out in Loki).


[Not that it is relevant to this comment, but I've rewatched and reassessed my opinion of 'Eternals'.  I no longer consider it a 'failure' in the current Phase, like I do 'Thor: Love and Thunder'.]

[Cyrusso]

Thank you Lucas! I appreciate that. 

I really liked Eternals, in large part because it was so different from all the other Marvel Stuff. I think the only weakness of the movie was that it got a little too heavy with the action at times. It could have cut at least 5-10 minutes of that stuff out, and focused more on drama and character development.

It reminded me a bit of Highlander... but much better. I'm kind of sad that it didn't do so well, and I'm not sure how at this point they can coherently pick up all the plot threads in another movie( since I really doubt will happen at this point, since The Marvels did so poorly at the box office), i seriously doubt Marvel is EVER going to do a sequel to The Eternals. I'm guessing some of the plot threads will pick up in the Blade movie, or the next Avengers movie.

There's a LOT of story that I think should be told, because I feel like some more connective tissue isn't necessarily mandatory viewing... but I would have loved to have seen how Thanos got the Power stone from the Nova Corps. I KNOW that story is out there somewhere, But i wanted to see it told on a cinematic level.

I feel like that's one of the few places the MCU has been deficient. Just make some shorts.... on a budget. Maybe just make them with comic book panels and voice-overs. I don't think it would hurt to do this, just to fill in the blanks.

They could be like little shorts that precede a film, kind of like the old films from back in the day... something to bring the audience up to speed on things. It would be really freaking cool.

Kevin Feige, please pay attention.