Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Just got back from seeing it, liked it a lot, might see it again this week.

It was a bit of a cheap misdirect to have Luke projecting like that, I was sure he had died in the blaster fire, his feet not making red marks and never landing any blows was so obvious.

Nice to see Yoda back, maneuvering Luke back into the fight.

Funny I see people reacting to it the same way I react to the JJ Star Trek stuff, I guess I was too old when Star Wars came out to form that bond with it, while Star Trek infected me before I was 10...

[kunedog]

C+

For background, I give Force Awakens an A- for accomplishing everything it needed to in disregarding the prequels, bringing in lots of new blood, and priming the universe for a new story.  My main criticisms revolved around the things that are absurdly overpowered and overcharged.  The First Order should not be producing a superweapon with 100x the size and effectiveness of the Empire's two greatest achievements, and green Rey should not be outdueling one of the most powerful force users we've ever seen (who was trained by the other two most powerful ones BTW).  The scene where she resists Kylo's mind-rape does work, since it could be justified as "activating" an inherent bodily self-defense talent (not a tool- and skill-based one), the way we often see superhuman powers discovered through puberty (e.g. X-men) or life-threatening situations in other franchises.

In TLJ I liked almost all scenes involving the force and nothing else, in contrast to Alien Covenant where all alien scenes were a chore but the androids had a decent movie going on between them.

Basically when Rey and Kylo were on screen, I was happy.  Rey finally gets the same token training Luke received, making her later feats easier to swallow.  The relationship between her and Kylo is the only part of the new story I cared at all about, and the lightsaber fight with Snoke's elite bodyguards is a blast (though pointless since Snoke was dead and we don't know why they're still fighting; don't tell me a bunch of force users are protecting fucking Hux).

I hate Leia's "death" (and similar fake out scenes in other movies) for the obvious reason that it's such a lame and poisonous trick that destroys audience faith in the film(maker) and drains the weight from any legitimate drama it ever tries to build after that.  As least Star Trek Into Darkness had the good sense to wait until the end to "kill" Kirk.  That said, I actually don't have a problem with her using the force to save her own life (see above), even though AFAIK she's only ever used it before to sense great disturbances in the "force internet."

Most scenes involving space battles and ground chases and covert ops and petty power politics left me either bored or rolling my eyes at how the situation was resolved (or made worse) by the writers pulling something out of their asses.

Laura Dern's character comes out of nowhere with no purpose except to upstage everyone else.  Who is this person who belittles established characters, and why do the writers think she should singlehandedly replace them as the single hero who defeats almost the entire enemy fleet?  There's been discussion of battle designs and ships in this thread, and I agree that Star Wars war strategy and tactics only have to be justified on their own terms, but this scene fails even that test.  A technology as common and widespread as a hyperdrive-capable ship (or presumably, just a hyperdrive itself paired with an asteroid) is now known to be a fleet-canceling superweapon.  Good luck dealing with that one, future SW script writers!  But fine, let's say we just have to have that admittedly cool white-sparky shot of Snoke's devastated fleet.  Leia and/or Ackbar could've done all Dern did better, especially since this series has such a fetish for systematically executing the old blood.  Imagine Ackbar at the helm of the cruiser, whirling around and springing the, uh, tactical surprise on the pursuing fleet, and explaining what was happening in his own words . . . naw, let's just put him in the movie to die offscreen.

Rose's stunt on the salt planet is arguably too dumb to criticize.  Even those who 100% agree with (and comprehend) her point of view have to admit that she was certain to kill both herself and Finn anyway, either in the crash or in a hail of AT-AT fire targeting the now sitting duck(s) who survived it (but of course they both escape, entirely offscreen).  At that point I was beyond rolling my eyes, and instead stopped myself from laughing when the battering laser breached the door in the background as she kissed Finn, and again when she slumped in her seat, because I thought, after all that, she had conveniently died with perfect comedic timing (should've known better after Leia).  It the kind of scene that would be right at home in Hot Shots (or Spaceballs 2)

The biggest sin, though, is the destruction of the new story, both the past and future of it, spreading the damage to adjacent films in the series.  Much is made of how Last Jedi disrespects the older movies, but fewer note how that appears to include Force Awakens as well.  Its two most intriguing mysteries (Snoke's and Rey's origins) have zero payoff and in fact are offhandedly dismissed.  Except for Kylo and Rey's dynamic (which after all the head-fakes is now largely "resolved" as simple light vs. dark), this film builds on none of TFA's groundwork.  Worse, it sets up nothing for the next film.  Because hey, why even bother; someone who saw TLJ because they wanted to learn more about Rey and Snoke is much less likely to fall for it a second time.

IMO this alone goes a long way toward explaining the audience reception (~40 points lower than critic scores across both RT and Metacritic).  Such poor word of mouth has it headed for a hell of a second weekend drop at the box office, and both the intrigue and good will from TFA is burning off at a rapid rate.

TL;DR - TLJ is the anti-ESB in many ways, even setting aside its contempt for the original trilogy.  It's rendered the story disjointed from both the preceding and subsequent films, harming the whole series more than I would have thought possible.  AFAIK there's been zero good news about Solo, so hopefully these don't serve as a one-two punch to deck both wings of the franchise.

[blspro]

Basically I've come to the conclusion that Lucasfilm wanted the second Episode of this trilogy to be Empire, but NOT Empire, at the SAME time. And Rian said: "I can do that! I'll give you Empire, but I'll reverse EVERYTHING. Genius, right?!"

And I don't mean TLJ imitates Empire in just one or two places. Where JJ traced ROUGHLY forward through the story path of A New Hope, Rian even MORE slavishly traced BACKWARDS through the story path of Empire.  This imitation is in EVERY detail in the film (and is what caused EVERY gaping plot hole and characterization insanity). It is in the BIG details AND the LITTLE details. 

The one thing that is truly amazing to me is how Rian has SO successfully TROLLED everyone to the point that even most of his detractors believe TLJ is 'new' and original - when the truth is that Empire is the SLAVISHLY referenced source of EVERY "creative" decision made for Last Jedi.

LOLOLOLOLOLOL!

To give you an example of what I mean, here - in no order of importance - is a VERY incomplete list which serves as proof of my point:

Crait is the Hoth imitation. But instead of Hoth being in the first act, we get the reverse - Crait in the last act.

Instead of fleeing FROM Hoth, we get the reverse - fleeing TO Crait

Instead of a fast-paced chase from Hoth, we get the reverse - a slow-speed chase to Crait

Instead of powdery snow, we get the reverse - hard salt.

Instead of a Rebel canon shooting at the Empire, we get the reverse - a First Order canon shooting at the Resistance

Instead of snow creatures being kept out of the base, we get the reverse - crystal creatures being brought into the base.

Instead of "I know" said to a lover as a relationship climax, we get the reverse - "I know" said to a stranger as character introduction.

Instead of starting with the Empire searching for the Rebel base, we get the reverse - starting with the New order having found the Rebel base.

Instead of Empire bombers going after the fleeing Rebel Falcon, we get the reverse - Rebel bombers going after the the arriving New Order Dreadnought.

Instead of the roguish scoundrel Han getting the Leader Leia to 'lighten up', we get the reverse - the tough Leader Holdo teaching the rogue scoundrel Poe to follow orders.

Instead of Luke healing in a water tank, we get the reverse - Finn walking around in a (leaky) water suit

Instead of the healing scene being dramatic, we get the reverse - the healing scene being comedic.

Instead of hyperspace as the way for them to escape the Empire, we get the reverse - hyperspace will get them caught by the First Order

Instead of the solution to the hyperspace problem to be found in a working (mining) city in the clouds, we get the reverse - a resort (gambling) city on the ground.

Instead of being betrayed by the suave leader of that city, we get the reverse - being betrayed by a stuttering captive of that city.

Instead of Boba Fett chasing Han and Leia, we get the reverse - Finn and Rose being brought TO Phasma.

Instead of keeping Han and Leia alive, we get the reverse - Finn and Rose are to be executed

Instead of Yoda wanting the Jedi to return, we get the reverse - Luke wanting the Jedi to die.

Instead of Yoda training Luke to be a Jedi, we get the reverse - Luke refusing to train Rey as a Jedi.

Instead of a Dark tree cave, we get the reverse - a Dark sea cave.

Instead of Luke being shown in his father (that their destinies are related), we get the reverse - Rey is shown as her own past and future. In other words, instead of destiny, we get the reverse - making one's own path.

Instead of Luke fighting Vader, we get the reverse - Luke evading a fight with Kylo

Instead of Luke trying to turn Vader and succeeding, we get the reverse - Luke giving up trying to turn Kylo

Instead of a climactic battle, we get the reverse - an anti-climactic non-battle

Instead of leaving the story on a cliff-hanger, we get the reverse - a conclusion to the whole story bringing it full circle back to Episode 1

The list goes on and on - even throwing in the final Emperor sequence from Return of the Jedi, ALSO reversed:

Instead of Luke not wanting to kill a mass murderer, we get the reverse - Luke wanting to murder an innocent child

Instead of a connection between Luke and Vader BECAUSE of their revealed relationship, we get the reverse - a connection between Kylo and Rey which CREATES their relationship.

Instead of a futuristic technological throne room, we get the opposite - an old style Flash Gordon era throne room

Instead of the Emperor successfully reading Luke's feelings, we get the reverse - Snoke unsuccessfully reading Kylo's feelings.

Instead of Luke force-grabbing his lightsaber OFF the Emperor's throne, we get the reverse - Kylo force-twisting the lightsaber ON Snoke's throne.

Instead of Vader saving the Emperor from being struck down by the lightsaber of the Jedi, we get the reverse - Kylo striking down Snoke with the lightsaber of the Jedi

Instead of Luke unsuccessfully killing the Emperor with the lightsaber, we get the reverse - Kylo successfully killing Snoke with the lightsaber

Instead of Vader betraying the Emperor out of love of his son, we get the reverse - Kylo betraying Snoke out of hatred of Snoke (kill the past)

Instead of the Emperor being killed by Vader at the end of a lightsaber fight, we get the reverse - Snoke killed by Kylo before a lightsaber fight

Instead of Vader and Luke fighting each other, we get the reverse - Kylo and Rey fighting together

Instead of a lightsaber duel, we get the reverse - no lightsaber duel at all

Instead of conflicted Vader turning to the Light after the fight, we get the reverse - conflicted Kylo turning fully to the Dark before the fight.

Instead of all of this being the CLIMAX of RotJ, we get the reverse - all this is in the MIDDLE act of TLJ.

Even the denouement is not original. It is simply Anakin in Phantom but in reverse:

Instead of a force sensitive young slave boy who BUILDS racing MACHINES, we get the reverse - a force sensitive young slave boy who TENDS racing ANIMALS.

Of course there are a TON more examples - because the entire FILM is one BIG reversal. EVERY "creative" choices was made simply by asking "What is the reverse of Empire?  Do THAT!"

Talk about COMPLETELY UN-original.  If you played a drinking game and took a shot for every reversal of Empire (et al), you would quickly DIE from alcohol poisoning!

And don't even get me started on the THEME and PLOT-THEME - and the story's "failure" to support them at ALL (not to mention CONTRADICT the theme in places).

So one can see every "thought" (lol) that went into SLAVISHLY following it's 'formula'. TLJ is a completely UNORIGINAL, FRACTURED IMITATION of a GOOD film.

TLJ is the ANTI-Empire Strikes Back

[Pak-Man]

Good movie, though.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Just realized the explanation for the force awakening in Rey was used in season 2 of The Legend Of Korra.

Basically in the fight between light and dark if one manages to destroy the other it's only temporary, the side that is destroyed will eventually be reborn.

[Quirk]

Wow, worst post of the year squeaking in right before the buzzer.

[RoninFox]

Empire Strikes Back is an old movie with criticisms that have diminished over time and is now regarded with a warm nostalgic glow along with its obvious quality, but stupid Rian went and did THE EXACT OPPOSITE by making a new movie that we have to get used to and can't quote line for line in perfect time even if we take a bathroom break while its still running in the other room.

[blspro]

Rian went and did THE EXACT OPPOSITE by making a new movie

I wish it had been "new".  That's Rian's biggest achievement with TLJ.  Convincing (trolling) both the defenders and the detractors alike that he was not imitating what came before - even more so than JJ imitated A New Hope.  LOL

The Prequels are old movies with criticisms that have grown over time and are now regarded with deserved contempt along with its obvious cringeworthiness, and stupid Rian went and did THE EXACT SAME THING by making a retread movie that we have to suffer through for the rest of eternity and which we want to go vomit in the bathroom through rather than listening to its constant fingers-on-the-chalkboard scraping in the other room.

[goflyblind]

That's kinda how Empire Strikes Back went down, too.

[Quirk]

Honestly, Empire Strikes Back is a SLAVISH reversal of A New Hope.

Instead of the movie starting with the empire attacking the Rebels in space, we get the reverse: the empire attacking the Rebels ON THE GROUND.

Instead of the Rebels trying to take out the Empire's big gun, we get the reverse: the Empire trying to destroy the Rebels' big gun.

Instead of Han starting the movie on a desert planet, we get the reverse: Han starting the movie on a SNOW planet.

Instead of VADER fighting his father figure, we get the reverse: Vader fighting Luke, to whom he is a father figure.

Instead of Luke learning about the force from a tall human, we get the reverse: Luke learning about the force from a SHORT ALIEN.

Instead of our heroes receiving communications audibly through communicators, we get the reverse: Lobot (a BAD GUY) receiving communications INaudibly through his head machine.

Instead of Empire pilots flying fighters in SPACE with ONE cockpit, we get the reverse: CIVILIANS flying ships in Bespin's atmosphere with TWO cockpits.

And there are even more TROLLISH reversals of other movies. The entire premise, for instance, is nothing more than a reversal of The Godfather, which had no scenes in space!

[The Lurker]

@kunedog If you're going to display Mark Hamill's opinion, use the full interview. Not just a snippet pulled out of full context.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Going to see it again tomorrow night, have to remember to look for stuff I've seen mentioned but I missed. 

I don't remember Ren saying it would be harmful to try using the force on Rey because of the distance, but the way he talks there are plenty of times I'm wondering what he is saying....

Have to watch to see if Luke's projection ever leaves any footprints.

And I did not see the broom trick at the end...

[kunedog]

@kunedog If you're going to display Mark Hamill's opinion, use the full interview. Not just a snippet pulled out of full context.

Fair to say:

I don't aim to misrepresent his problem with the script, nor the fact that he had "nonstop fun" and proved to be a professional and team player in the end.

[MartyS (Gromit)]

Just got back from seeing it again, way more enjoyable the second time being able to relax and watch for stuff I missed the first time.

I watched The Force Awakens again just before going to see it, there is stuff in Rey's vision when she touches the light saber that might make more sense now, but if that is her as a little kid being sold off why did they show a ship leaving and her seeming to cry out for it?  That doesn't fit with the explanation Ren gave her. 

[blspro]

Honestly, Empire Strikes Back is a SLAVISH reversal of A New Hope.

(Attempted) ridicule is not refutation.  In fact, the appeal to it is an explicit logical fallacy.

But hey, if you want to believe Crait wasn't "Hoth but not", DJ wasn't "Lando but not", Casino City wasn't "Cloud City but not", the slow speed chase wasn't "fast speed chase but not", the Throne Room scene wasn't "Throne Room but not", etc etc etc etc etc you are certainly free to cling to such bizarre beliefs.