Favorite Documentary?

[gbeenie]

I disagree.  I don't buy the notion of 'advanced societies'.

Then you're living in denial of reality. The very contents of your own individual coconut are the product of our advanced civilization.

Our civilization has more technology. 

That you think that's the sole merit of modern Western culture speaks volumes as to the depths of your self-loathing and seething ingratitude.

Their civilization actually works within the laws of nature. 

Everything works within the laws of nature. If you're going to argue this nonsense, at least use some semblance of correct terminology. Did you mean "Their civilization actually works in concert with nature?" You and I both owe our very existences to the fact that our forebears recognized that "nature" is HIGHLY overrated. "Nature" is smallpox epidemics. "Nature" is the average person dead at forty. FUCK "nature."

Is the definition of an advanced civilization a civilization that is doomed to keep growing until its surroundings can't support it?

Ya know, if you were able to produce so much as one solitary shred of evidence that this was happening, you MIGHT have the beginnings of an argument (please type the phrase "population explosion" in your reply so I can finish shutting you down and end this stupid discussion); as it is, all I've heard is supercilious dilettante frippery, the apparent result of a life of completely unappreciated privilege.

[Variety of Cells]

Wow, you have a lot of anger.  I'll try and calm things down and argue this rationally. 

If you remember form my earlier post, I said that there are types of farming that work well.  And yes, there were some native tribes that used those methods of farming.  Our method is called by some totalitarian farming, which is different than the way most native people farmed. 

The reason that there are no more hunter/gatherer societies is because we killed them all.  Our method of farming affords us a lot of food and a large population that is able to and supports the killing of other cultures that it finds backward.  That doesn't mean their means of gathering food didn't work, they just didn't have the power to resist us.

I'm not saying you are a twisted person, but I do feel that your understanding of how native peoples live is not an accurate picture.  They were not starving.  Malnutrition was not causing their brains to malfunction.  They were healthy and intelligent people.  In fact, most tribes ate a much better diet than we do.  They ate a variety of foods because they had to, vs what we eat, which is basically just corn.  They had a stable food supply.

Masses of people have been exploited in the past, you can't deny that.  And a few people can't exploit masses of people if there aren't masses of people to begin with.

I do apologize for my first post.  It was a little harsh in criticism of our type of farming.  It's not evil, but it does not accommodate for anything other than us.  It's fine if a few people want to farm that way, but when 99% of the world does, we have a problem.

As for your last paragraph, well it's just not true.  Mind you, there were still types of farming that worked and weren't harmful, and there were also places that were just abundant with food.  There's plenty of it in the trees and in the ground and on bushes and walking across the meadows.  The world wasn't a desert before farming.  And humans are pretty well off, they can eat just about anything.  And they are smart enough to hunt just about anything.  If you ask an actual Native American to tell you about their ancestors, they won't tell you stories about how they were always starving and dying and lead a horrible life.  They will tell you stories of a proud people that respected the earth.

Now, I am not suggesting that the solution to our problems is to go live exactly like Indians did.  That's not possible at this point.  But we do need to learn from them.  They were a society that worked.  Ours doesn't.  You can't deny that eventually the world is going to be over populated.  Something has to give sometime.  And you keep insulting me for questioning the society I was born into.  If I was born the son of an officer in the German army during WW2, should I have just gone along with it?

[gbeenie]

No worries.  You aren't being offensive at all.  I'll define the laws of nature when I edit this.


Ok, we are starting to get way off topic here, so I'm going to move this discussion over to the Ishmael topic http://www.rifftrax.com/smf/index.php?topic=1805.0 in the Books and readin category.  It'll fit quite well in there, because this is what the book is about.  No one will actually read it if I put it there, but oh well.  Best to keep it out of the way.

Forget it. Anti-civilization advocates like Quinn, who use the very tools of the civilization they claim to despise, are hypocrites as well as fools. I want this nonsense to meet its fiery end RIGHT here, where people will actually see it.

[Variety of Cells]

No worries.  You aren't being offensive at all.  I'll define the laws of nature when I edit this.


Ok, we are starting to get way off topic here, so I'm going to move this discussion over to the Ishmael topic http://www.rifftrax.com/smf/index.php?topic=1805.0 in the Books and readin category.  It'll fit quite well in there, because this is what the book is about.  No one will actually read it if I put it there, but oh well.  Best to keep it out of the way.

Forget it. Anti-civilization advocates like Quinn, who use the very tools of the civilization they claim to despise, are hypocrites as well as fools. I want this nonsense to meet its fiery end RIGHT here, where people will actually see it.

How about a hug?

[gbeenie]

Wow, you have a lot of anger.

Ingratitude is the human attribute I most despise. People like you and Daniel Quinn enjoy all the plenty and privilege that comes with living in our beautiful modern world, and you use that precious prize in the genetic lottery to denigrate the civilization that makes your very ability to effectively express your thoughts possible. So, yeah, that tends to piss me off a little.

If you remember form my earlier post, I said that there are types of farming that work well.  And yes, there were some native tribes that used those methods of farming.

Work well according to you. Small-scale farming WILL NOT feed the people of this planet. How do you propose to address that problem?

Our method is called by some totalitarian farming

By WHO? Who on Earth would employ such silly rhetorical verbiage, outside of the Political Science department of any university?

I do apologize for my first post.  It was a little harsh in criticism of our type of farming.  It's not evil, but it does not accommodate for anything other than us.  It's fine if a few people want to farm that way, but when 99% of the world does, we have a problem.

What problem? Given the massive amounts of food this country exports, the statement that our means of food production works only for ourselves doesn't hold a lot of water. If anything, the problem in many parts of the world appears to be that they don't produce food the way we do.

As for your last paragraph, well it's just not true.  Mind you, there were still types of farming that worked and weren't harmful,

Still waiting to hear how modern farming is "harmful."

and there were also places that were just abundant with food.

Enough to feed six billion people?

The world wasn't a desert before farming.

The world's not a desert now.

And humans are pretty well off, they can eat just about anything.

That's because we're omnivores. The ability to eat "just about anything" doesn't put food on your table. Technology does that.

If you ask an actual Native American to tell you about their ancestors, they won't tell you stories about how they were always starving and dying and lead a horrible life.  They will tell you stories of a proud people that respected the earth.

First off, NO culture likes to talk about the nasty bits of the past (certainly we, as Americans, have many things in our history we'd just as soon forget). I doubt members of ANY Native American tribe will tell heartwarming stories about things like the wholesale slaughter and torture of other tribes, either.

Second, what the FUCK does "respected the earth" mean? Seriously.

Now, I am not suggesting that the solution to our problems is to go live exactly like Indians did.  That's not possible at this point.  But we do need to learn from them.  They were a society that worked.  Ours doesn't.

And your basis for this claim is...?

You can't deny that eventually the world is going to be over populated.

Watch me. The notion of the "population explosion" has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.

you keep insulting me for questioning the society I was born into.  If I was born the son of an officer in the German army during WW2, should I have just gone along with it?

Pointless analogy. Germany during World War II stood in opposition to the principles of Western civilization; hence, most of the rest of the civilized rising up to stop them. Your example is based on the hideous idea that all cultures are inherently equal.

[gbeenie]

No worries.  You aren't being offensive at all.  I'll define the laws of nature when I edit this.


Ok, we are starting to get way off topic here, so I'm going to move this discussion over to the Ishmael topic http://www.rifftrax.com/smf/index.php?topic=1805.0 in the Books and readin category.  It'll fit quite well in there, because this is what the book is about.  No one will actually read it if I put it there, but oh well.  Best to keep it out of the way.

Forget it. Anti-civilization advocates like Quinn, who use the very tools of the civilization they claim to despise, are hypocrites as well as fools. I want this nonsense to meet its fiery end RIGHT here, where people will actually see it.

How about a hug?

No need to get nasty.

Seriously, though, I don't hate you or anything, variety. But I've encountered this sort of thing before, and it amazes me that there are people who can use the very same tools that civilization has given them to attempt to tear it down. Our very ability to have this conversation is stone-solid proof of the merits of modern life.

[Variety of Cells]

Wow, you have a lot of anger.

Ingratitude is the human attribute I most despise. People like you and Daniel Quinn enjoy all the plenty and privilege that comes with living in our beautiful modern world, and you use that precious prize in the genetic lottery to denigrate the civilization that makes your very ability to effectively express your thoughts possible. So, yeah, that tends to piss me off a little.

I still disagree with your assumption that native peoples were any less able to express themselves than we are.  You can cite studies that say people who are malnourished were not as intelligent, but these people were not malnourished.

Oh, and have you ever really thanked a cow for giving its life so you can live?  You say I'm not thankful, yet you support a world that enslaves animals and destroys forests, the very things that give you life.  A world that has no problem destroying countless lives so you can have your coffee in the morning.  Did you ever thank the thousands of animals that gave up their homes so you could have three bathrooms?

If you remember form my earlier post, I said that there are types of farming that work well.  And yes, there were some native tribes that used those methods of farming.

Work well according to you. Small-scale farming WILL NOT feed the people of this planet. How do you propose to address that problem?

I never suggested that it would feed everyone.  And I'm not saying it's the answer for us.  All I was saying is that it fed tribes of people.

Our method is called by some totalitarian farming

By WHO? Who on Earth would employ such silly rhetorical verbiage, outside of the Political Science department of any university?

Quinn.  That's where I got it from, not my term.  Though I would prefer if you debate its accuracy instead of its source.

I do apologize for my first post.  It was a little harsh in criticism of our type of farming.  It's not evil, but it does not accommodate for anything other than us.  It's fine if a few people want to farm that way, but when 99% of the world does, we have a problem.

What problem? Given the massive amounts of food this country exports, the statement that our means of food production works only for ourselves doesn't hold a lot of water. If anything, the problem in many parts of the world appears to be that they don't produce food the way we do.

I meant it doesn't accommodate animals and plants.  But it doesn't seem like that will hold any weight with you.

As for your last paragraph, well it's just not true.  Mind you, there were still types of farming that worked and weren't harmful,

Still waiting to hear how modern farming is "harmful."

I explained it in the first long post in this topic that was hidden in the spoiler tag.  Maybe you missed it.  It hoards land and food to ourselves, not sharing with the animals and others around them.  And it creates more food than we need, which allows our population to expand.

and there were also places that were just abundant with food.

Enough to feed six billion people?

Taken out of context.  It was enough to feed them.  Again, I am not suggesting that we live exactly like they did.  But it worked for them.

The world wasn't a desert before farming.

The world's not a desert now.

How is that relevant to the point I was making?

And humans are pretty well off, they can eat just about anything.

That's because we're omnivores. The ability to eat "just about anything" doesn't put food on your table. Technology does that.

But it doesn't have to.  You need no technology to pick an apple off a tree.  And you don't need a table to eat it.

If you ask an actual Native American to tell you about their ancestors, they won't tell you stories about how they were always starving and dying and lead a horrible life.  They will tell you stories of a proud people that respected the earth.

First off, NO culture likes to talk about the nasty bits of the past (certainly we, as Americans, have many things in our history we'd just as soon forget). I doubt members of ANY Native American tribe will tell heartwarming stories about things like the wholesale slaughter and torture of other tribes, either.

Tribes did go to war quite often.  But it was not our kind of war.  They generally did not wipe out other tribes.  They fought, but their goal was rarely eradication.  They just wanted more space for their people, or women from the other tribe.  Once that was accomplished, there was peace for a little while.  And yes, there were some people who practiced human sacrifice, and there were some people who tried to kill all opposition.  But they were small.  And if they tried to expand too far, Indian nations banded together to fight the common enemy. But I still disagree that they were starving.  You have no proof that they were.

Second, what the FUCK does "respected the earth" mean? Seriously.

They didn't pour pollution into it.  They didn't treat it as their garbage dump.  They didn't rip up whole forests, destroying delicate ecosystems.  They didn't act as if the earth was their enemy to be fought and tamed.

Now, I am not suggesting that the solution to our problems is to go live exactly like Indians did.  That's not possible at this point.  But we do need to learn from them.  They were a society that worked.  Ours doesn't.

And your basis for this claim is...?

That's what these posts have been addressing.

You can't deny that eventually the world is going to be over populated.

Watch me. The notion of the "population explosion" has been thoroughly and repeatedly debunked.

Ok..... that's new to me.  That's great news if it is.  Where did you hear that?

you keep insulting me for questioning the society I was born into.  If I was born the son of an officer in the German army during WW2, should I have just gone along with it?

Pointless analogy. Germany during World War II stood in opposition to the principles of Western civilization; hence, most of the rest of the civilized rising up to stop them. Your example is based on the hideous idea that all cultures are inherently equal.

[/quote]

This isn't about just western civilization, it includes eastern too.

The point I was trying to make was that blindly following the society you were born into is something that no one would suggest.  Our country is founded on revolution, people who disagreed with how things were being run.  But now you are angry with me for questioning how things are being run? 

If you can show me that the world's population is decreasing then I need to rethink some things.  I understand that the rate at which the population is increasing is decreasing, but that doesn't change the fact that there is 6.5 billion of us. 

[Variety of Cells]

No worries.  You aren't being offensive at all.  I'll define the laws of nature when I edit this.


Ok, we are starting to get way off topic here, so I'm going to move this discussion over to the Ishmael topic http://www.rifftrax.com/smf/index.php?topic=1805.0 in the Books and readin category.  It'll fit quite well in there, because this is what the book is about.  No one will actually read it if I put it there, but oh well.  Best to keep it out of the way.

Forget it. Anti-civilization advocates like Quinn, who use the very tools of the civilization they claim to despise, are hypocrites as well as fools. I want this nonsense to meet its fiery end RIGHT here, where people will actually see it.

How about a hug?

No need to get nasty.

Seriously, though, I don't hate you or anything, variety. But I've encountered this sort of thing before, and it amazes me that there are people who can use the very same tools that civilization has given them to attempt to tear it down. Our very ability to have this conversation is stone-solid proof of the merits of modern life.

I still disagree with you.  You are really stuck on this notion that native peoples were idiots.  How did they even stay alive?  How did they come up with such beautiful stories, such beautiful art, and such a rich languages, even more complex than our own?  The Iroquois confederacy was the model for our democracy.  These people were not stupid.

Unless you are addressing that we are talking over the internet.  But that gets into the whole argument of materialism and what is actually necessary.  Where you will respond by calling me a hypocrite.  If I could live a simpler life, I would.  But that's not a realistic option.  This society will not stop expanding until it creates its blessed global community.  I have little choice but to try and find a way to live here, and maybe make people aware that there is another way.  I really had no idea that there were people so adamantly against finding a new way.  I am not suggesting we abandon all of our technology and accomplishments.  But we really need to start respecting where we live.


EDIT:  Oh, and I remember you mentioning corn somewhere and I didn't address it.  The average diet of Americans has a ton of corn in it.  Look on the labels of foods.  Corn products are everywhere.  Corn starch and corn syrup is in just about everything.  The diet of American's is not healthy.

[davo]

he #1 cause of greenhouse emmisions is cows farting. yes, that's right. guess we need electric cows.

For the love of god please site some first hand info.  Thats is the strangest claim i have seen in years.  So please site first hand info of that. 

her ya go:

http://talk.livedaily.com/showthread.php?t=558643
" Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together."

according to a UN study..among others,but i'm too lazy to look for other sources.

so..i guess we should all start farming a lot more 

[dignan]

As far as favorite documentaries go, I like The Last Waltz.  Sure, it's a bit biased in favor of Robbie Robertson's more romanticized view of what being in a band SHOULD be rather than what being in a band actually IS, but there's no denying it's some damn good music. 

[davo]

I disagree.  I don't buy the notion of 'advanced societies'.  Our civilization has more technology.  Their civilization actually works within the laws of nature.  Is the definition of an advanced civilization a civilization that is doomed to keep growing until its surroundings can't support it?

boy, i have so many questions!

i assume you're american (only americans lament the plight of the american native), so i'll say this:

the great thing about america is you can go buy land and live exactly how you want to live. if you want to form a hippy hunter-gatherer commune, you're free to do so.  the question is: do you think that is feasible on a global scale given the number of the people in the world?   i'll be fine in michigan, as i have 1/5 of the world's fresh water to fish in & drink,but what about those in nevada? how about alaska? should we cut them off from our "naturally growing fruti & veg & game animals" here?

what do you feel about gun control & hunting laws?

the thing that disturbs me is your attitude towards private ownership of land.  if you don't believe in it, can i have your house & your car? it's for the good of the community after all    
    seriously,though: are you a socialist or are you just a utopian who longs for a more primal culture?  

are the animals you lament over that arebeing driven out by the farmer more important than the humans that the food is going to feed?

it was native americans who taught the pilgrims to grow corn..does that count as farming?

do you think this country would still be the way it was in 1492?  the answer in reality is NO.  it'd either be part of mexico and canada, or the united states of Lakota.  the native tribes didn't get along, if you recall your history.  they fought over land,too.
----------------------
if you have some logical suggestions for how your ideology would work in the real world, i'd love to hear them,because i don't see how it can feasible work.

if not, why don't you buy some land in montana and live exactly how you want to?  of course that limits the 'net access and hi-def TV and things like running water & heat,but you are free to do that if you wish.

speaking of, there was a cool documentary on PBS about a guy who did that in the 60s.  forgot the name of it,but i'd like to see the entire thing.

[Pak-Man]

Does "I love the '80s" qualify as a documentary? :^)

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

As far as favorite documentaries go, I like The Last Waltz.  Sure, it's a bit biased in favor of Robbie Robertson's more romanticized view of what being in a band SHOULD be rather than what being in a band actually IS, but there's no denying it's some damn good music. 

WHOA WHOA WHOA!!!!!  who do you think you are digman?  trying to get this thread on topic tsk tsk tsk

" Livestock are responsible for 18 per cent of the greenhouse gases that cause global warming, more than cars, planes and all other forms of transport put together."

according to a UN study..among others,but i'm too lazy to look for other sources.

i read it.  thanks, i would like to see the study specifically though.  something to me about the remaining 80 percent just doesnt seem kosher about that study.

[MarkAndrew]

Tone it done guys this isnt IMDB. 

Both of you have points and both of you are missing other things.

If hunter-gathers did so well how come agriculture has brought us most of what we understand of science.  A good show to look up is called Connections.  Its shows how we got from point A) the plow to B) the atomic bomb  That was season one.
What your saying about how they spent their time is true.  also no one is justifying what happened to the indians.  However they werent an advanced civilization, any more than the pilgrims would be now to us.  they couldnt stop disease any more than the pilgrims could. 

What agriculture does that impressive is allows a small family to feed hundreds which allows others to build and work in industry thus the industrial revolution.  Modern farming has problems but it isnt the worst thing in the world.  Its not even in and of itself a problem. 

Man good one.  I do love Connections.  In fact I'll go on record saying Connections with James Burke is my favorite, non-porn star, documentary.  The first season is available on youtube...which is nice since the only other format is VHS via ebay.

[sarcasm_made_Easy]

Im fairly sure my dad has it now via DVD


edit:  yup its on DVD

http://www.suncoast.com/Connections--Vol--3--5-Discs--Front-Page_stcVVproductId3031341VVcatId455365VVviewprod.htm