The Economic Downturn..

[wurwolf]

So yeah. Renting can bite me.

I agree with this wholeheartedly as well. I've owned a house (with my ex) for most of my adult life and have only had to rent in the past seven years. It's just terrible. You're not allowed to paint or make any changes to the house, not allowed to plant in the yard or put up a laundry line. We had a frozen water line last winter and on a Monday morning around 8:30 the rental agency's maintenance man just let himself into our place without even letting us know he'd be coming over or even knocking or ringing the doorbell. We were asleep in bed when we heard some guy yell, "Hello!"

I hate renting and want to get out of it as soon as possible.

[MSTJedi]

I'll tell you what I'll never do again. Rent from family - especially in-laws. My grandmother-in-law/landlady refuses to fix anything in the house we live in. The central air doesn't work. We have no gas because the pipes need to be replaced, so no central heat or clothes dryer. Just about all the plumbing needs replacing. But we're stuck because finding an apartment to fit a family of 5 for what we're paying now ($400) is impossible.

[shodan]

I'll tell you what I'll never do again. Rent from family - especially in-laws. My grandmother-in-law/landlady refuses to fix anything in the house we live in. The central air doesn't work. We have no gas because the pipes need to be replaced, so no central heat or clothes dryer. Just about all the plumbing needs replacing. But we're stuck because finding an apartment to fit a family of 5 for what we're paying now ($400) is impossible.

here's a general rule of thumb I've learned the hard way to follow. never mix money or business with family or friends. no matter how innocuous the transaction might seem, it usually leads to trouble unless it's about 5$ or less. as a for instance,  two of my best  friends Pat and Mij start up their own t shirt company to make some money in high school. basically they bought a ton of white shirts from a wholesaler and invested in a screen printer. after one semester, a fist fight , and just breaking even with profits, one was stuck with the unsold shirts and the other was out 100$. they haven't spoken to each  other since and i've had to walk on eggshells interacting with them. and all because they thought that the friendship would carry over into their business dealings. I've got a dozen more examples of the same scenario.

[daltysmilth]

I think it can work to go into business with relatives or friends as long as you can all agree that the business isn't worth losing a friendship over. 

[wurwolf]

Just out of curiosity, in this difficult economic time, how important do you think it is to have a college education?

When I graduated high school in 1982, you didn't need a degree to get a decent job. Somewhere in the 80s and early 90s the tide turned and I was finding that my secretarial training for the past ten + years was not considered worthy in light of the fact that I had no higher education. So my ex (who also did not have a degree) instilled in our kids the importance of a college education.

Now the kids are college-age. My oldest is studying to become a physicist. She's going to a state college and has gotten grants and scholarships (mostly because she's a female in a male-dominated field and studied in Germany for her junior year of high school) so she's doing fine. I'm not worried about her now nor am I worried about how she'll do once she graduates.

It's her sister I'm worried about.

My youngest is going to an art college down in Georgia, the tuition of which will be $35,000 a year (and that's not including rooming and food). She's planning on studying either sequential art or illustration. I'm really worried about this, for a few reasons: one, by the time she graduates she will have racked up close to $150k in debt, unless she can come up with a lot of grants and scholarships. Two, the school won't allow you to transfer credits, which means she will have to go to that specific school for four years to complete her education. And three, I don't really see art as a field where she will recoup the expenditure laid out in tuition.

I really don't know what to tell her. I want to be supportive but I think she's making a mistake by choosing art as a profession. And I'm really tempted to try to dissuade her from going to college. I don't want to shit all over her dreams, but I also don't want to see her adult life crushed under the weight of this massive student loan debt. Anyone have thoughts or advice?

[RVR II]

I'm discovering my BA degree isn't worth a hill of beans in this day and age and has not help me advance in a previous job nor gotten me a better job..

A 2 year degree in a trade seems to be going a lot farther these days (I.E. nurses, automotive, etc.)..

Have her learn a trade she may be interested at a 2 year school and she can always go on to a 4 year college afterwards or at a later date

[Bob]

With where I work and things we have to do, a 4 year degree is the smallest you can have.   

I think this just means "what she wants to do?" the rest of her life.

[wurwolf]

Well, the degree she wants to pursue is practical in that it's not based in theory -- like a history degree.

She knows what she wants to do with the rest of her life, but I just don't think she's going to get a good return on her investment.

[RVR II]

Well, the degree she wants to pursue is practical in that it's not based in theory -- like a history degree.

She knows what she wants to do with the rest of her life, but I just don't think she's going to get a good return on her investment.

History is written by the victors!

I'd let her find her own path then and wish her the best on all her future endeavors

[Bob]

That.....sounds like a tough decision to make.

[D.B. Barnes]

This is a tough one. I would say that I think racking up that kind of debt for an art degree is not in her best interest, at least from a cost/benefit standpoint. However, I say that knowing only a little about how you go about getting jobs in those fields, although it seems like more of a "have an awesome portfolio and an effective network" type of deal. In which case, she might be better off going and living it by inserting herself into that world. I think I might feel better about racking up debt if I was doing it paying rent while I tried to score some internship in my chosen field.

That said, if the art career doesn't work out for her and she wants to enter the "corporate" job market at some point down the road, she would be disqualifying herself from a significant number of positions if she did not have a degree. As Bob touched on, it's a minimum requirement for a lot of jobs. As someone who has interviewed numerous people and had in say in who gets hired, the lack of a degree can automatically put your resume in the recycling. I've even pleaded with people to consider certain candidates who I thought, based on their resume, would be great for a position. I was only successful once. Unfortunately, that's just a real roadblock for some people.

And with that said, there's always the possibility that she opts out of the art degree and the DIY art career doesn't work out. In that case, if she still wanted to pusue a degree in something, she could do so at a state school without racking up $150K in debt.

Just some thoughts; hope it helps. 

[Thrifty]

Wurwolf, I think the best idea is to lay all the cards on the table for your daughter.  Tell her that it's gonna be expensive, and that the career prospects for art school graduates are not great.  Tell her that you're not trying to discourage her dream, but that you're just stating some of the facts and that she should be aware of what she's getting in to.  My dad was always loving but practical with his advice, and my siblings and I all seem to be the better for it.

I don't know how much restraint I would be able to have in that situation.  It's nice that she wants to be an artist, but I can't fathom how education helps that.  You've got skill or you don't.   I mean, I'm sure you can acquire skill through education, but I don't get how it would take 4 years.

Though the cost you quoted sure makes the roughly $28,000 I would need for 4 years in school for a BS in Computer Science seem like nothing in comparison.

[MSTJedi]

Hopefully the art college you refer to isn't a branch of the Art Institute. Just ask the main man behind Incognito Cinema Warriors, Rikk Wolf, what he thinks about his all-but-worthless $60K art degree that doesn't even transfer to other AI campuses.

[wurwolf]

It's a legit art school -- Savannah College of Art & Design. She's at least done her homework in that regard.

I have given her the argument that she's going to have a hard time finding a job with a degree in art but she tells me I'm wrong because her art teacher said there are plenty of jobs in art. 

I have also told her that she is setting herself up for a massive debt but I think her attitude is that she'll cross that bridge when she comes to it.

I just am at a loss, really. I have a feeling that she chose the art profession because of certain reasons that don't really have a lot to do with art, but that's just conjecture on my part and I could be wrong. I often wonder how bad it would be to discourage her from getting a degree, but as DB pointed out that's bad news, too.

[Compound]

I'm guessing that your daughter would be an out of state student for Georgia, correct?  If she's unwilling to attend a state college for art design, then strongly encourage her to delay entrance to the school until she's established residency in the state. Generally that means spending a year not being supported by your folks, but that varies from state to state. Find a community college in the area with a related program (commercial design, web design, business, just anything that might transfer over) and have her attend that while working. Or attend a state school for the first two years and then transfer to Savannah.

But I can not recommend spending $35k a year on an art degree.