Here, so all the other threads don't get hijacked by people debating little things about the fictional movie's fictional things that bugged them (ah, nerds...)
I'll start this off by responding to the debate about the glass shielding and arrows that's invaded two separate threads here:
First off, the arrows weren't penetrating the gunships' glass at first because the Na'vi were firing their arrows at a distance. And even then, the arrows were already putting some pretty impressive small cracks in the glass. So, #1) The glass on all the gunships was probably already slightly weakened from the damage suffered in the attack on Hometree, making it more prone to shattering during the next battle (though you could argue about whether they replaced the glass or not before the second battle.) And #2 - When the Na'vi finally did succeed in smashing the gunship glass with their arrows, they were either standing on the gunships or were close enough to touch the damn things when they fired their arrows. I don't know about you, but I'd believe a 10-foot tall creature that can match the strength of a man-sized mech would be able to bring some considerable downward force to their arrow thrust - not to mention that all that force would then be focused into a very small surface area of the glass (thanks to the relatively small tip of the arrow), making it far easier to break through than if something like a mallet had been used. It'd be basically like using one of those emergency glass-breaking picks on a car window. I repeat my #2 argument for the mech glass shielding.
And yes, there can be arguments over "why didn't they have stronger glass?", or "Why did they even have glass shielding in the first place?" But I'm not going to go there, because it's a damn movie, and I don't care. You'd think the Marines would've just dropped a rod from god on Hometree from orbit, but no, we needed battle scenes - and besides, it probably would've destroyed the unobtanium deposit they were trying to mine, anyways. Paul Reiser clone wouldn't have liked that much.
Quote from: TTYT on April 24, 2010, 12:03:31 PM
And yes, there can be arguments over "why didn't they have stronger glass?", or "Why did they even have glass shielding in the first place?" But I'm not going to go there, because it's a damn movie, and I don't care.
Wasn't part of the problem also that Earth was running out of basics. That they couldn't make stronger glass because they didn't have the materials?
So the humans wanted to take Unobtanium, a rock that floats. The first place they want to go to get this stuff is underground where the Na'vi's huge tree is...well you know guys there's a GIGANTIC FLOATING MOUNTAIN RANGE RIGHT OVER THERE! Gee I wonder if there's any Unobtanium in those! Just get a couple helicopters over there and push one of the mountains back to base.
Quote from: RoninFox on April 24, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
So the humans wanted to take Unobtanium, a rock that floats. The first place they want to go to get this stuff is underground where the Na'vi's huge tree is...well you know guys there's a GIGANTIC FLOATING MOUNTAIN RANGE RIGHT OVER THERE! Gee I wonder if there's any Unobtanium in those! Just get a couple helicopters over there and push one of the mountains back to base.
Yeah, I wondered about that too. Also, where is the water coming from for the waterfalls?
I believe Cameron said in the interview that they didn't don't know the unobtanium is why the mountains float. Considering the company guy's tunnel vision to the giant deposit under the tree, I'm not surprised.
I had tons of problems with the biology of the planet. I went to art school for god's sake, it's not like I'm a biologist.
If you look around the Earth, you'll sort of see continuity in animal physiology. Most reptiles, amphibians, birds and mammals share similarities. Bilateral symmetry, limbs follow a standard plan (one bone, two bones, many bones). And while not all of these animals have 4 limbs (snakes), most do.
For some reason on Pandora, every species has this biological USB port. So this is an adaptation of an extremely common...and therefore ancient, ancestor.
You have the blue lemurs, horses and dragons who all have 6 limbs. The Navi have four. The horses and dragons have 4 eyes, the Navi and Lemurs have 2. The Navi appear to be from a feline line of decent, but the only other creature which appeared to be from that family also has 6 limbs and 4 eyes.
I mean, everything on this planet has 6 limbs, except the Navi and they don't even have vestigial nubs where those limbs used to be. My first instinct was "Oooh, it'll turn out that the Navi are alien to the planet", but that wouldn't make sense either since they have the unique and ancient USB adaptation.
Humans are a 98% genetic match with a handful of species on this planet. The percent drops incredibly by the time you get to something that has a totally different number of limbs than we do. You're talking 340 million years to when proto-mammals and proto-reptiles branched, and it's not like snakes DON'T have 4 limbs, they've just evolved not to need them. They still have vestigial bones.
The Navi appear to be the most well adapted species (tool making, they're in the forrest, plains, mountains...they're everywhere) on the planet and appear to have no genetic relatives. It's as if the genetic branch for 4 limbs, 2 eyes is extremely successful...except for every other species on that branch died out in favor of 6 limbs 4 eyes. It's a contradiction.
Yeah, this is really really really nerdy... but again, I'm an uneducated whelp.
TL:DR; When one is spending $500,000,000... kick $20,000 to a scientist and say "Hey... does this stuff make ANY sense?".
Quote from: Blaine on April 24, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
TL:DR; When one is spending $500,000,000... kick $20,000 to a scientist and say "Hey... does this stuff make ANY sense?".
Yeah, that would have been a good investment. Instead they just spent the 20,000 wandering through a Hot Topic looking at T-shirts and posters.
Anybody else SHOCKED that Pandora didn't have unicorns?
Quote from: Darth Geek on April 24, 2010, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: Blaine on April 24, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
TL:DR; When one is spending $500,000,000... kick $20,000 to a scientist and say "Hey... does this stuff make ANY sense?".
Yeah, that would have been a good investment. Instead they just spent the 20,000 wandering through a Hot Topic looking at T-shirts and posters.
Anybody else SHOCKED that Pandora didn't have unicorns?
According to the interview Cameron gave on Charlie Rose the day before the release of the film that they consulted biologists to make Pandora look realistic.
Maybe biologists should study more evolution?
What is the evolutionary benefit to having everything bright neon?
Quote from: Plastic Self-Cleaning Duck on April 24, 2010, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: Darth Geek on April 24, 2010, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: Blaine on April 24, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
TL:DR; When one is spending $500,000,000... kick $20,000 to a scientist and say "Hey... does this stuff make ANY sense?".
Yeah, that would have been a good investment. Instead they just spent the 20,000 wandering through a Hot Topic looking at T-shirts and posters.
Anybody else SHOCKED that Pandora didn't have unicorns?
According to the interview Cameron gave on Charlie Rose the day before the release of the film that they consulted biologists to make Pandora look realistic.
Maybe biologists should study more evolution?
I think the filmmakers were lied to by a bunch of pot smokers.
Quote from: Plastic Self-Cleaning Duck on April 24, 2010, 02:55:57 PM
Quote from: Darth Geek on April 24, 2010, 02:51:08 PM
Quote from: Blaine on April 24, 2010, 02:45:27 PM
TL:DR; When one is spending $500,000,000... kick $20,000 to a scientist and say "Hey... does this stuff make ANY sense?".
Yeah, that would have been a good investment. Instead they just spent the 20,000 wandering through a Hot Topic looking at T-shirts and posters.
Anybody else SHOCKED that Pandora didn't have unicorns?
According to the interview Cameron gave on Charlie Rose the day before the release of the film that they consulted biologists to make Pandora look realistic.
Maybe biologists should study more evolution?
From what I've googled he hired botanists...
http://www.scienceline.org/2010/03/07/an-interview-with-jodie-holt-the-botanist-behind-avatar/
!
Botanists are hardly biologists. Trained scientists, sure... but that's also assuming they asked the botanists what they thought of the flora AND fauna of Pandora. For all we know, all they looked at were the plants.
**edit** Jodie Holt is a botanist and a biologist, however according to the articles I've read she only dealt with the plants on Pandora, after the fact. She had no involvement with animals. She didn't design anything. They just sort of asked her to name stuff, asked her for ideas on how a botanist should behave. **edit**
!-I struck that out. That sounds way more aggressive and patronizing than what I meant. Botanists are very, very valid scientists and should be able to make commentary on biology.
Quote from: anais.jude on April 24, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
What is the evolutionary benefit to having everything bright neon?
From the hired botanist (she's also a biologist, but from what I read she was only asked about plants):
QuoteQ: What was the inspiration for the bioluminescent flora that lit up when people walked on it?
A: [Cameron] has been really enchanted by the tube worms and bioluminescent creatures in the ocean, which have presumably evolved that because there is so little light. So his idea was that on Pandora, it would be like the far north where you have constant low light. He envisioned the living things on Pandora being bioluminescent. What I wrote in a couple of the descriptions was that plants evolved bioluminescence as a way of attracting pollinators, given that they had evolved in a very different light environment than we have here. I am not aware of any plants that bioluminesce [on Earth], but it's not far-fetched to think that it could happen.
I couldn't help but notice that chain-smokers like Dr. Augustine still have a ready supply of cigarettes by the year 2154. What, isn't there any new addictions in the future, like Soylent Pink?
Quote from: anais.jude on April 24, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
What is the evolutionary benefit to having everything bright neon?
Lots of overcast days?
Quote from: anais.jude on April 24, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
What is the evolutionary benefit to having everything bright neon?
Life on Pandora began in a rave. The candy necklace alligator poodles that got cut from the picture show that.
Personally, I was part of a 30 page "heated discussion" regarding why the humans didn't drop rocks from orbit on the Na'vi. I think the end consensus was either a) They hired the some folks who developed the military tactics for Starship Troopers or b) It would make for a less interesting movie.
Quote from: TTYT on April 24, 2010, 12:03:31 PM
Here, so all the other threads don't get hijacked by people debating little things about the fictional movie's fictional things that bugged them (ah, nerds...)
I'll start this off by responding to the debate about the glass shielding and arrows that's invaded two separate threads here:
First off, the arrows weren't penetrating the gunships' glass at first because the Na'vi were firing their arrows at a distance. And even then, the arrows were already putting some pretty impressive small cracks in the glass. So, #1) The glass on all the gunships was probably already slightly weakened from the damage suffered in the attack on Hometree, making it more prone to shattering during the next battle (though you could argue about whether they replaced the glass or not before the second battle.) And #2 - When the Na'vi finally did succeed in smashing the gunship glass with their arrows, they were either standing on the gunships or were close enough to touch the damn things when they fired their arrows. I don't know about you, but I'd believe a 10-foot tall creature that can match the strength of a man-sized mech would be able to bring some considerable downward force to their arrow thrust - not to mention that all that force would then be focused into a very small surface area of the glass (thanks to the relatively small tip of the arrow), making it far easier to break through than if something like a mallet had been used. It'd be basically like using one of those emergency glass-breaking picks on a car window. I repeat my #2 argument for the mech glass shielding.
And yes, there can be arguments over "why didn't they have stronger glass?", or "Why did they even have glass shielding in the first place?" But I'm not going to go there, because it's a damn movie, and I don't care. You'd think the Marines would've just dropped a rod from god on Hometree from orbit, but no, we needed battle scenes - and besides, it probably would've destroyed the unobtanium deposit they were trying to mine, anyways. Paul Reiser clone wouldn't have liked that much.
And here is an easy way of saying this argument is horse shit....
IT'S SUPPOSE TO BE BULLET PROOF!
The velocity that is discharged by a gun would still be a large amount more thrust than a Navi shooting an arrow. If your argument was the case, we would simply make stronger and better arrows (and bows) and would not have to move onto ballistics.
So here is the problem, why the hell would something that is suppose to resist bullets all of a sudden crack under arrows?
And if it's not bullet proof, then why have simple glass in the first place!?! Hell on tanks not only is the glass bullet proof but they are very small windows. They might as well print bulls eyes on them, never mind that it seemed that Killgore-er-QuarICantSpellHisName seemed fine with out the glass until the arrow came that would have punctured the glass anyhow.
Then again, he also seemed to survive a ton of crap that no human could survive...which is why it was even more stupid that he got killed simply by two arrows. >:(
In short, the bullet proof glass needed to break because like how they said in Battlefield Earth, there would be no way in hell the Na'vi could ever win. And please don't say "its just a movie" because then why the fuck did he try to do all this science shit only to have huge flaws that a six year old child could point out?
And don't get me started on the biology. As they said "MY EXISTENCE MAKES NO EVOLUTIONARY SENSE!!!"
P.S.Oh, this is one of my biggest ones...
You would think that with humans with all this tech that is a billion times better than we have now we would do something that we HAVE been doing on earth:
Stuff is below the ground. Object is on top of it. Solution: DRILL UNDER GROUND AND MIND IT UNDERNEATH, FILLING THE VACCUME WITH EARTH SO THAT WAY YOU CAN STEALTHILY MINE IT OUT!
BOOM!
No Na'vi war clusterfuck!
Quote from: JWhite on April 24, 2010, 03:54:07 PM
Quote from: TTYT on April 24, 2010, 12:03:31 PM
Here, so all the other threads don't get hijacked by people debating little things about the fictional movie's fictional things that bugged them (ah, nerds...)
I'll start this off by responding to the debate about the glass shielding and arrows that's invaded two separate threads here:
First off, the arrows weren't penetrating the gunships' glass at first because the Na'vi were firing their arrows at a distance. And even then, the arrows were already putting some pretty impressive small cracks in the glass. So, #1) The glass on all the gunships was probably already slightly weakened from the damage suffered in the attack on Hometree, making it more prone to shattering during the next battle (though you could argue about whether they replaced the glass or not before the second battle.) And #2 - When the Na'vi finally did succeed in smashing the gunship glass with their arrows, they were either standing on the gunships or were close enough to touch the damn things when they fired their arrows. I don't know about you, but I'd believe a 10-foot tall creature that can match the strength of a man-sized mech would be able to bring some considerable downward force to their arrow thrust - not to mention that all that force would then be focused into a very small surface area of the glass (thanks to the relatively small tip of the arrow), making it far easier to break through than if something like a mallet had been used. It'd be basically like using one of those emergency glass-breaking picks on a car window. I repeat my #2 argument for the mech glass shielding.
And yes, there can be arguments over "why didn't they have stronger glass?", or "Why did they even have glass shielding in the first place?" But I'm not going to go there, because it's a damn movie, and I don't care. You'd think the Marines would've just dropped a rod from god on Hometree from orbit, but no, we needed battle scenes - and besides, it probably would've destroyed the unobtanium deposit they were trying to mine, anyways. Paul Reiser clone wouldn't have liked that much.
And here is an easy way of saying this argument is horse shit....
IT'S SUPPOSE TO BE BULLET PROOF!
The velocity that is discharged by a gun would still be a large amount more thrust than a Navi shooting an arrow. If your argument was the case, we would simply make stronger and better arrows (and bows) and would not have to move onto ballistics.
So here is the problem, why the hell would something that is suppose to resist bullets all of a sudden crack under arrows?
And if it's not bullet proof, then why have simple glass in the first place!?! Hell on tanks not only is the glass bullet proof but they are very small windows. They might as well print bulls eyes on them, never mind that it seemed that Killgore-er-QuarICantSpellHisName seemed fine with out the glass until the arrow came that would have punctured the glass anyhow.
Then again, he also seemed to survive a ton of crap that no human could survive...which is why it was even more stupid that he got killed simply by two arrows. >:(
In short, the bullet proof glass needed to break because like how they said in Battlefield Earth, there would be no way in hell the Na'vi could ever win. And please don't say "its just a movie" because then why the fuck did he try to do all this science shit only to have huge flaws that a six year old child could point out?
And don't get me started on the biology. As they said "MY EXISTENCE MAKES NO EVOLUTIONARY SENSE!!!"
P.S.
Oh, this is one of my biggest ones...
You would think that with humans with all this tech that is a billion times better than we have now we would do something that we HAVE been doing on earth:
Stuff is below the ground. Object is on top of it. Solution: DRILL UNDER GROUND AND MIND IT UNDERNEATH, FILLING THE VACCUME WITH EARTH SO THAT WAY YOU CAN STEALTHILY MINE IT OUT!
BOOM!
No Na'vi war clusterfuck!
...You should really just relax.
Quote from: Compound on April 24, 2010, 03:53:27 PM
Quote from: anais.jude on April 24, 2010, 02:58:20 PM
What is the evolutionary benefit to having everything bright neon?
Life on Pandora began in a rave. The candy necklace alligator poodles that got cut from the picture show that.
Personally, I was part of a 30 page "heated discussion" regarding why the humans didn't drop rocks from orbit on the Na'vi. I think the end consensus was either a) They hired the some folks who developed the military tactics for Starship Troopers or b) It would make for a less interesting movie.
It would make for a SHORTER movie, that's for sure.
*grabs a random gripe out of a hat*
I don't like that warrior Na'vi dude who was supposed to marry the main Na'vi chick (I don't believe I'll ever know any of there names, they all blur together), and I can't understand how we're supposed to like him at all. He's in the movie for approximentally 11 minutes and 13 seconds (I timed it, and that' s being generous by including the parts where he's in the background), he acts like a dick pretty much the entire time, and he loses every fight he's in. Those fights being when he tries to slice Jake and gets cat-called off by whatshername, and when he jumps into the giant dropship to try and stop the bomb and gets shot. His falling-to-his-death-in-slomo bit was one of the longest times he was onscreen.
So, in short, one of the weakest characters I've seen in a movie in a long time.
Quote from: Relaxing Dragon on April 24, 2010, 11:06:34 PM
*grabs a random gripe out of a hat*
I don't like that warrior Na'vi dude who was supposed to marry the main Na'vi chick (I don't believe I'll ever know any of there names, they all blur together), and I can't understand how we're supposed to like him at all. He's in the movie for approximentally 11 minutes and 13 seconds (I timed it, and that' s being generous by including the parts where he's in the background), he acts like a dick pretty much the entire time, and he loses every fight he's in. Those fights being when he tries to slice Jake and gets cat-called off by whatshername, and when he jumps into the giant dropship to try and stop the bomb and gets shot. His falling-to-his-death-in-slomo bit was one of the longest times he was onscreen.
So, in short, one of the weakest characters I've seen in a movie in a long time.
You mean the guy who was going to be the next chief? Yeah, you'd think he'd be a little less... sucky.
The guys touched on it in the commentary, but it's worth pointing out: An underlying message of the movie is it's good to be Navi and bad to be Human. Jake is a Navi for 3 months and is the greatest Navi in 7 generations. And Jake was hardly our best and brightest.
Going back to the glass shield thing - Hah! (All emphasis added)
QuoteThe Na'vi are exremely accurate with their arrows, which fly relatively fast, and can pack the punch to go through a human ship's windshield (which are actually not bulletproof, as demonstrated on Trudy's Samson 16 by Miles Quaritch on the flight line) at close range, as depicted several times in the Battle of the Tree of Souls. However, if the range is too far, or the arrow strikes at an angle rather than head on, it merely creates chips in the windshield, as depicted in the destruction of Hometree.
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Hunting_Arrows (http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Hunting_Arrows)
As for Quaritch, it wasn't a Na'vi arrow that broke through his mech's glass shield, it was the mech suit's giant knife, which can cut through metals:
QuoteThe other non-standard weapon is a combat knife of self- sharpening diamond-hard ceramic, as well as an optional flamethrower. To match the scale of the suit, the knife's blade is over three feet long and cuts through many metals. The AMP Suit Knife is especially favored by Special Forces AMP pilots.
http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Amplified_Mobility_Platform#Usage (http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Amplified_Mobility_Platform#Usage)
As for two "measly" arrows killing Quaritch, remember what he said at the beginning of the movie:
QuoteThey're fond of arrows dipped in a neurotoxin that will stop your heart in one minute.
As for the poisonous atmosphere of Pandora:
QuotePandora's atmosphere is a mixture of nitrogen, oxygen, carbon dioxide (>18%), xenon (>5.5%), methane, and hydrogen sulfide (>1%) and is about 20% denser than the atmosphere on Earth primarily due to the high percentage of Xenon; a heavy, colorless, odorless, and generally unreactive noble gas. The high concentration of carbon dioxide in the Pandoran atmosphere makes it extremely poisonous to humans and will kill them in about 4 minutes. The hydrogen sulfide present is also quite poisonous; concentrations over 1000 ppm (0.1 %) can cause immediate collapse with subsequent loss of breathing, even after inhalation of a single breath.
So, basically, Quaritch was one hell of a hardened sunofabitch in supreme physical shape, seeing as he barely flinched when exposed to the atmosphere, and required a double dose of posioned arrows to finally take him down. Must've been a descendant of Boromir.
And remember, none of the humans whose deaths were prominently focused on died solely because of being exposed to the excess carbon dioxide in Pandora's atmosphere. Trudy got blown up, Grace was shot, and Quaritch got a neurotoxin overdose. Jake came closest to dying from his exposure, but was saved in time by Neytiri.
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 10:54:50 AM
So, basically, Quaritch was one hell of a hardened sunofabitch in supreme physical shape, seeing as he barely flinched when exposed to the atmosphere, and required a double dose of posioned arrows to finally take him down. Must've been a descendant of Boromir.
One of the many reasons why he's the true hero of the movie to me 8)
Quote from: Relaxing Dragon on April 25, 2010, 02:27:28 PM
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 10:54:50 AM
So, basically, Quaritch was one hell of a hardened sunofabitch in supreme physical shape, seeing as he barely flinched when exposed to the atmosphere, and required a double dose of posioned arrows to finally take him down. Must've been a descendant of Boromir.
One of the many reasons why he's the true hero of the movie to me 8)
Amazing how many bullets some punk on angel dust will take and yet keep going, too. ;)
Has anybody nitpicked yet about how when the "bullet proof" windshields are pierced by bullets (nitpick that one later) creating a breach in the hull, nobody was concerned about losing their breathable oxygen?
How about when the shuttle/bomber went down? At that point it was close enough to the tree that it was ready to drop its payload, and yet when it crashes, it misses everything completely. Not even any shrapnel or debris landing near the tree.
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Has anybody nitpicked yet about how when the "bullet proof" windshields are pierced by bullets (nitpick that one later) creating a breach in the hull, nobody was concerned about losing their breathable oxygen?
Look at my big post just a few posts up from here. The windshields apparently aren't bulletproof. http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,17907.msg545573.html#msg545573 (http://forum.rifftrax.com/index.php/topic,17907.msg545573.html#msg545573)
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
How about when the shuttle/bomber went down? At that point it was close enough to the tree that it was ready to drop its payload, and yet when it crashes, it misses everything completely. Not even any shrapnel or debris landing near the tree.
I'm assuming the explosions took it off its course. That, and they were preparing the bombs for being dropped, so they would be ready to drop once the shuttle actually got over the tree.
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Has anybody nitpicked yet about how when the "bullet proof" windshields are pierced by bullets (nitpick that one later)....
I suspect the answer to that is connected to why a bullet proof vest can protect against said bullet (it actually deforms the bullet and catches some of the blunt force) and yet can't protect against knives, arrows or ice picks...or bullets made of materials that won't deform....
But I don't have the energy....
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PMSo basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
Yep.
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
Might be worse. He may have thought of every one of them before the filming and then did it anyway....
Quote from: RoninFox on April 25, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
Special Edition, folks. Special Edition.
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:46:44 PM
Quote from: RoninFox on April 25, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit. At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).
Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
Special Edition, folks. Special Edition.
You know, it would be very entertaining if all the additions (other than the sex scene we know is going in) consisted of people asking "hey, why don't we do this" and being answered with lame excuses.
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 05:27:24 PM
Quote from: Indomitus on April 25, 2010, 05:14:35 PM
How about when the shuttle/bomber went down? At that point it was close enough to the tree that it was ready to drop its payload, and yet when it crashes, it misses everything completely. Not even any shrapnel or debris landing near the tree.
I'm assuming the explosions took it off its course. That, and they were preparing the bombs for being dropped, so they would be ready to drop once the shuttle actually got over the tree.
No, the order had been given to "drop." Or rather "Go go go drop drop drop!" They were over the target, and flying out of control like that wouldn't have carried them far enough away to avoid collateral damage. In fact, given that one actually has to drop a bit ahead of target since things don't fall perfectly straight down (damn you, physics) I think the shuttle should have landed ON the tree.
Quote from: RoninFox on April 25, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
He does that and the movie gets even longer...
And the theater can show one less showing a day.
Quote from: RoninFox on April 25, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
It's all in the original script, though: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron)
Quote from: TTYT on April 25, 2010, 06:02:05 PM
Quote from: RoninFox on April 25, 2010, 05:45:34 PM
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.
It's all in the original script, though: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron (http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron)
I'll take your word for that.
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 05:38:47 PM
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.
With emphasis on "excuse" as it contrasts to "reason".
All of my science problems I've outlined (and the ones I haven't like, oh... with such incredibly low gravity you'd expect animals to have very low bone density. At 20% Earth's gravity, I'd be like General Zod out there. Jumping 5x as far as normal, shattering Thanator skulls with a backhand) could have easily been remedied within the story. It's just, they chose to skimp on the science.
Granted, getting upset about something that COULD have easily been fixed may sound silly... but imagine if Michael J. Fox went to the free throw line at the end of Teen Wolf down by 3 points and the writer had him make both free throws for 2 points each, so Beaverton wins by 1!!
Does that really change the movie? Doesn't affect the movie past anyone who has the slightest knowledge of basketball would choke on their popcorn.
Considering the intended audience of Avatar, probably could have done with consulting the science community when designing creatures (according to Jamie Holt, the botanist Cameron consulted after-the-fact, artists designed the creatures).
I'm sure there's an excuse for this, but here I go.
I got the impression that the Naavi understand at a basic level what the Avatars are, that a) they are Naavi bodies without consciousnesses when they are not b) being operated by humans. They appear to understand what happens when the Avatar operator releases control of the Naavi body, which then goes into a coma (they call Avatars "dream-walkers" and they have a word for the coma they go into, though I can't remember it). So they seem to get that they're basically brain-dead meat puppets being driven by human miles away.
They're ok with this? Apart from the inherent suspicion they show all humans and outsiders, they're not bothered by what to them must surely seem to be a soulless, dead Naavi who they've never seen before being possessed and animated by a hostile alien's mind? An Avatar would embody the worst qualities of zombies, alien invasion and demonic possession all in one form, especially to a bunch of super mystical space indians.
Quote from: RobtheBarbärian on April 25, 2010, 07:40:14 PM
I'm sure there's an excuse for this, but here I go.
I got the impression that the Naavi understand at a basic level what the Avatars are, that a) they are Naavi bodies without consciousnesses when they are not b) being operated by humans. They appear to understand what happens when the Avatar operator releases control of the Naavi body, which then goes into a coma (they call Avatars "dream-walkers" and they have a word for the coma they go into, though I can't remember it). So they seem to get that they're basically brain-dead meat puppets being driven by human miles away.
They're ok with this? Apart from the inherent suspicion they show all humans and outsiders, they're not bothered by what to them must surely seem to be a soulless, dead Naavi who they've never seen before being possessed and animated by a hostile alien's mind? An Avatar would embody the worst qualities of zombies, alien invasion and demonic possession all in one form, especially to a bunch of super mystical space indians.
Tsu'tey directly states that Jake is a "demon in a false body" when he first arrives at Hometree.
He was the Confrontational Dick character. After he gets overruled, most of the other Naavi seem to calm down pretty quickly about Sully's Avatar. That, and the other scientists' Avatars had been showing up for a while to do research and are warmly welcomed.
What, exactly, was Trudy's plan in breaking Jake, Grace, and Norm out of the brig? Fly to the trailer and then... what? Live there the rest of her life? She doesn't have an avatar body, remember? And as for the others, the situation isn't much better. Sooner or later, without resupply or maintenance from RDA, the trailer is going to run out of food, water, power and/or breathable air. Even if the power is solar and the air regenerated, the machinery behind them is going to break down eventually (sooner rather than later is my guess - the trailer doesn't look like it was built to sustain habitation at full occupancy for years on end). So unless the Na'vi get the Tree Of Souls mind-switching trick to work for all three of them, their human bodies are doomed in fairly short order - and the avatars can't live without without their human bodies (kind of like The Matrix in reverse). So if she's got a plan at all, it doesn't make any sense.
Of course, the humans who stay behind on Pandora at the end of the movie aren't in a lot better shape. That base had a crew of hundreds because it needed it - I'm sure that with the doubtless-astronomical expense of shipping people to Pandora and sustaining them once they're there, there really isn't anyone on that base who doesn't *have* to be there. So how are the remaining humans going to run the base's power, water, air recirculation, and other systems (like, for example, the avatar link devices) without the dozens if not hundreds of techs that RDA considered so crucial to the base's operation that they went through all that expense and trouble to put them on Pandora?
Also, why didn't Quaritch throw Trudy in the brig with the others? When she flew away without firing on Hometree, she was disobeying a direct order in the middle of a battle - certainly more than enough justification to throw her in the brig with the others. And it certainly gave Quaritch plenty of reason to question where her loyalties lie. Why take the risk of letting her walk around free, at least until after your big operation is over?
What would have been wrong with dropping the Daisy Cutter onto the Tree Of Souls from 20,000 feet? You don't need to be *that* accurate. You just need to hit the general vicinity.
How did the entire complement of the base fit onto that *one* ship back to Earth? Wouldn't it have already been filled by people rotating home?
Are you telling me that RDA only has one base on that entire big planet? Is the Unobtainium only in one small area? If not, wouldn't they be wise to put multiple bases on the planet to mine from different locations?
Does RDA only hire Americans? You'd think in an operation this important, they'd hire the world's best smart, scientifically-minded people from all kinds of places. Aren't there any Chinese, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, Brits, or Indians in the mid 22nd century? Here in the early 21st, there are a lot of people from those places that are pretty good at science and stuff.
Quote from: Nergol on April 25, 2010, 11:46:18 PM
What, exactly, was Trudy's plan in breaking Jake, Grace, and Norm out of the brig? Fly to the trailer and then... what? Live there the rest of her life? She doesn't have an avatar body, remember? And as for the others, the situation isn't much better. Sooner or later, without resupply or maintenance from RDA, the trailer is going to run out of food, water, power and/or breathable air. Even if the power is solar and the air regenerated, the machinery behind them is going to break down eventually (sooner rather than later is my guess - the trailer doesn't look like it was built to sustain habitation at full occupancy for years on end). So unless the Na'vi get the Tree Of Souls mind-switching trick to work for all three of them, their human bodies are doomed in fairly short order - and the avatars can't live without without their human bodies (kind of like The Matrix in reverse). So if she's got a plan at all, it doesn't make any sense.
Of course, the humans who stay behind on Pandora at the end of the movie aren't in a lot better shape. That base had a crew of hundreds because it needed it - I'm sure that with the doubtless-astronomical expense of shipping people to Pandora and sustaining them once they're there, there really isn't anyone on that base who doesn't *have* to be there. So how are the remaining humans going to run the base's power, water, air recirculation, and other systems (like, for example, the avatar link devices) without the dozens if not hundreds of techs that RDA considered so crucial to the base's operation that they went through all that expense and trouble to put them on Pandora?
Power doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever...
But food? Hmm, I guess they couldn't eat anything local, the list given on the wiki for what's in the atmosphere would probably mean that all the plants and animals would probably be poisonous. So that would be an issue...
I guess Trudy really was being a martyr, like she said.
Also listed on the wiki is that the cost of the mining operation almost ruined the company, so having only one mine is plausible.
If they were smart they would pull a Star Trek (Devil in the Dark) or Stargate (Enemy Mine) and have the locals mine some magic mineral and trade it to the company for supplies to keep the humans that stay behind alive.
On to another major nitpick I've now got after poking around on the wiki, why was there no mention in the movie that the mineral was a superconductor? In all the crappy dialog you'd think they would have slipped it in there. That little fact explains the electromagnetic effects and the flying mountains. Of course it would also have told everyone the flying mountains are big blocks of the stuff and all the digging the company was doing was really stupid. Ok not "everyone" but those of us that have see or done the "superconductor floating over a magnet" trick.
Edit: Also, if they mentioned it was a room temperature superconductor it really would be unobtanium, a room temperature superconductor has been the holy grail of superconductor research for decades. Currently they only really work well at liquid helium temperatures (why MRI machines are so big is all the insulation around the coil), the ones that work at liquid nitrogen temperatures are considered "high temp" and are too weak to do anything more than demonstrate the meissner effect.
Quote from: RoninFox on April 24, 2010, 12:45:23 PM
So the humans wanted to take Unobtanium, a rock that floats. The first place they want to go to get this stuff is underground where the Na'vi's huge tree is...well you know guys there's a GIGANTIC FLOATING MOUNTAIN RANGE RIGHT OVER THERE! Gee I wonder if there's any Unobtanium in those! Just get a couple helicopters over there and push one of the mountains back to base.
LMFAO! I was wondering the same thing. I mean, DUH?
QuotePower doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever...
I'm sorry, but I still don't think I buy it. From the time Jake arrives on Pandora, the plot of Avatar takes place over the course of what - six months? Most safety equipment I've ever seen have rated service lives - usually something around six to twelve months. I find the idea that the rebreathers wouldn't have any kind of rated service life hard to buy.
Also, it's not an issue of how much power the trailers can provide. It's two other issues. First, one of how the trailers' generators are powered. What happens when they run out of whatever fuel they use? Are they unobtanium-powered? Well, okay, there's a lot of unobtanium on Pandora, but if you need a refill, doesn't it need to be refined? And how will they do that without the RDA techs there to run the refining equipment? Are they solar? Okay, but then there's still the second issue - which is what happens when whatever generating system the trailers use breaks. Can anyone on the team fix it? Can they fix it without spare parts?
QuoteI guess Trudy really was being a martyr, like she said.
But I really don't think her motivation for that was established at all. I mean, if someone's going to knowingly go on a suicide mission for a cause, their connection to that cause does need to be established somehow. In fact, she's the one member of the team whose motivation for doing so is the least established. I mean, Jake's understandable - he's in love with Neytiri. It'd be passably established that Grace and Norm are in love with the nA'vi culture enough to do that. But Trudy? I mean, it's one thing to not want to mow down innocent Na'vi with your helicopter gunship. It's another to die for them yourself. Why would she do that?
Quote from: Nergol on April 26, 2010, 01:43:15 PM
QuotePower doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever...
I'm sorry, but I still don't think I buy it. From the time Jake arrives on Pandora, the plot of Avatar takes place over the course of what - six months? Most safety equipment I've ever seen have rated service lives - usually something around six to twelve months. I find the idea that the rebreathers wouldn't have any kind of rated service life hard to buy.
It was 3 months and a few days, actually. And with proper care and storage, an unused rebreather (in our world right now) can can last up to 7 years before the rubber rings and the other soft parts become too worn to be safe. Apparently, the Exopacks in the movie are kind of the same thing, though they last a lot longer. And who's to say everybody was always using the same rebreather every time?
Quote from: Nergol on April 26, 2010, 01:43:15 PMBut I really don't think her motivation for that was established at all. I mean, if someone's going to knowingly go on a suicide mission for a cause, their connection to that cause does need to be established somehow. In fact, she's the one member of the team whose motivation for doing so is the least established. I mean, Jake's understandable - he's in love with Neytiri. It'd be passably established that Grace and Norm are in love with the nA'vi culture enough to do that. But Trudy? I mean, it's one thing to not want to mow down innocent Na'vi with your helicopter gunship. It's another to die for them yourself. Why would she do that?
She apparently had a relationship with the nerdy thin scientist guy, according to the wiki. But those scenes got cut or didn't make the final shooting script.
..Man, all this debate makes it feel like the Special Edition's gonna be like 5½ hours long...
OK, small nitpick, but...
Why wouldn't Jake have insisted that RDA fix his legs in advance, before leaving for Pandora? Wasn't the restoration of his legs pretty much his entire original reason for going? I mean, at the beginning, the RDA guy says that "The pay is good - VERY good", so we know that RDA isn't short of cash. Presumably fixing his legs wouldn't be too budget-busting for them. And he does have them somewhat over a barrel - the entire (considerable) expense of growing his brother's Avatar would go to waste if he told them no. And, being unemployed in a bad economy, it's very unlikely Jake he'd go back on the deal (and that's beyond the fact that RDA could sue him into oblivion if he did). So there's really no downside in RDA agreeing to it. Besides, wouldn't it simply make practical sense? Pandora being as dangerous a place as it is, having someone in a wheelchair there would be both a considerable burden to the base and even possibly hazardous to the people around him. And it would leave him useless and stuck on Pandora if anything happened to his Avatar. Like Kevin pointed out in the Riff - six years to grow the Avatar, half a day to lose it. If Neytiri hadn't shown up and Jake's Avatar really had been ripped to shreds by those dog-thingies, what would Jake have done there for the rest of his tour without his legs? But if he did have them, at least Quaritch could have put Jake to use as a grunt ("A marine, I can use") for the rest of his tour.
So... what's the deal? Is Jake really just that bad a negotiator? Did RDA not think of any of this?
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
OK, small nitpick, but...
Why wouldn't Jake have insisted that RDA fix his legs in advance, before leaving for Pandora? Wasn't the restoration of his legs pretty much his entire original reason for going? I mean, at the beginning, the RDA guy says that "The pay is good - VERY good", so we know that RDA isn't short of cash. Presumably fixing his legs wouldn't be too budget-busting for them. And he does have them somewhat over a barrel - the entire (considerable) expense of growing his brother's Avatar would go to waste if he told them no. And, being unemployed in a bad economy, it's very unlikely Jake he'd go back on the deal (and that's beyond the fact that RDA could sue him into oblivion if he did). So there's really no downside in RDA agreeing to it. Besides, wouldn't it simply make practical sense? Pandora being as dangerous a place as it is, having someone in a wheelchair there would be both a considerable burden to the base and even possibly hazardous to the people around him. And it would leave him useless and stuck on Pandora if anything happened to his Avatar. Like Kevin pointed out in the Riff - six years to grow the Avatar, half a day to lose it. If Neytiri hadn't shown up and Jake's Avatar really had been ripped to shreds by those dog-thingies, what would Jake have done there for the rest of his tour without his legs? But if he did have them, at least Quaritch could have put Jake to use as a grunt ("A marine, I can use") for the rest of his tour.
So... what's the deal? Is Jake really just that bad a negotiator? Did RDA not think of any of this?
I think a little from column A and a little from column B.
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
OK, small nitpick, but...
Why wouldn't Jake have insisted that RDA fix his legs in advance, before leaving for Pandora? Wasn't the restoration of his legs pretty much his entire original reason for going? I mean, at the beginning, the RDA guy says that "The pay is good - VERY good", so we know that RDA isn't short of cash. Presumably fixing his legs wouldn't be too budget-busting for them. And he does have them somewhat over a barrel - the entire (considerable) expense of growing his brother's Avatar would go to waste if he told them no. And, being unemployed in a bad economy, it's very unlikely Jake he'd go back on the deal (and that's beyond the fact that RDA could sue him into oblivion if he did). So there's really no downside in RDA agreeing to it. Besides, wouldn't it simply make practical sense? Pandora being as dangerous a place as it is, having someone in a wheelchair there would be both a considerable burden to the base and even possibly hazardous to the people around him. And it would leave him useless and stuck on Pandora if anything happened to his Avatar. Like Kevin pointed out in the Riff - six years to grow the Avatar, half a day to lose it. If Neytiri hadn't shown up and Jake's Avatar really had been ripped to shreds by those dog-thingies, what would Jake have done there for the rest of his tour without his legs? But if he did have them, at least Quaritch could have put Jake to use as a grunt ("A marine, I can use") for the rest of his tour.
So... what's the deal? Is Jake really just that bad a negotiator? Did RDA not think of any of this?
It's a plot device.
Jake not having working legs makes him appreciate the avatar more, and also pushes him to do the transfer at the end.
Do you think he would do the transfer, giving up his human body, if his legs were working?
Quote from: MartyS (Gromit) on April 27, 2010, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
OK, small nitpick, but...
Why wouldn't Jake have insisted that RDA fix his legs in advance, before leaving for Pandora? Wasn't the restoration of his legs pretty much his entire original reason for going? I mean, at the beginning, the RDA guy says that "The pay is good - VERY good", so we know that RDA isn't short of cash. Presumably fixing his legs wouldn't be too budget-busting for them. And he does have them somewhat over a barrel - the entire (considerable) expense of growing his brother's Avatar would go to waste if he told them no. And, being unemployed in a bad economy, it's very unlikely Jake he'd go back on the deal (and that's beyond the fact that RDA could sue him into oblivion if he did). So there's really no downside in RDA agreeing to it. Besides, wouldn't it simply make practical sense? Pandora being as dangerous a place as it is, having someone in a wheelchair there would be both a considerable burden to the base and even possibly hazardous to the people around him. And it would leave him useless and stuck on Pandora if anything happened to his Avatar. Like Kevin pointed out in the Riff - six years to grow the Avatar, half a day to lose it. If Neytiri hadn't shown up and Jake's Avatar really had been ripped to shreds by those dog-thingies, what would Jake have done there for the rest of his tour without his legs? But if he did have them, at least Quaritch could have put Jake to use as a grunt ("A marine, I can use") for the rest of his tour.
So... what's the deal? Is Jake really just that bad a negotiator? Did RDA not think of any of this?
It's a plot device.
Jake not having working legs makes him appreciate the avatar more, and also pushes him to do the transfer at the end.
Do you think he would do the transfer, giving up his human body, if his legs were working?
Uh...YEAH. He's bigger, stronger, more capable, has learned to appreaciate the Na'vi culture and been initiated into their tribe. Even banged his girlfriend as a Na'vi. It's such a one sided choice it's as one dimensional as everything else in this movie.
Quote from: Darth Geek on April 27, 2010, 09:29:13 PM
Quote from: MartyS (Gromit) on April 27, 2010, 08:59:10 PM
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 07:43:23 PM
OK, small nitpick, but...
Why wouldn't Jake have insisted that RDA fix his legs in advance, before leaving for Pandora? Wasn't the restoration of his legs pretty much his entire original reason for going? I mean, at the beginning, the RDA guy says that "The pay is good - VERY good", so we know that RDA isn't short of cash. Presumably fixing his legs wouldn't be too budget-busting for them. And he does have them somewhat over a barrel - the entire (considerable) expense of growing his brother's Avatar would go to waste if he told them no. And, being unemployed in a bad economy, it's very unlikely Jake he'd go back on the deal (and that's beyond the fact that RDA could sue him into oblivion if he did). So there's really no downside in RDA agreeing to it. Besides, wouldn't it simply make practical sense? Pandora being as dangerous a place as it is, having someone in a wheelchair there would be both a considerable burden to the base and even possibly hazardous to the people around him. And it would leave him useless and stuck on Pandora if anything happened to his Avatar. Like Kevin pointed out in the Riff - six years to grow the Avatar, half a day to lose it. If Neytiri hadn't shown up and Jake's Avatar really had been ripped to shreds by those dog-thingies, what would Jake have done there for the rest of his tour without his legs? But if he did have them, at least Quaritch could have put Jake to use as a grunt ("A marine, I can use") for the rest of his tour.
So... what's the deal? Is Jake really just that bad a negotiator? Did RDA not think of any of this?
It's a plot device.
Jake not having working legs makes him appreciate the avatar more, and also pushes him to do the transfer at the end.
Do you think he would do the transfer, giving up his human body, if his legs were working?
Uh...YEAH. He's bigger, stronger, more capable, has learned to appreaciate the Na'vi culture and been initiated into their tribe. Even banged his girlfriend as a Na'vi. It's such a one sided choice it's as one dimensional as everything else in this movie.
It's still a big risk, if it doesn't work he's dead. Trading a broken human body for an avatar would be worth the risk, you'd have to think the decision would be a bit harder if his body was perfectly healthy.
Just thinking more about this, for us watching it's probably more rewarding for him to trade broken body for working one (if they got us to care about him, they didn't....), but trading a working body for an avatar would show more commitment to the Na'vi.
QuoteIt's a plot device.
Well, sure, but so was everyone's instant and irresistible attraction to Lisa and her red dress. That doesn't mean it makes any sense.
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 10:08:19 PM
QuoteIt's a plot device.
Well, sure, but so was everyone's instant and irresistible attraction to Lisa and her red dress. That doesn't mean it makes any sense.
No, that was boobs. And audience sympathy for having to make it with Wiseau.
Okay, this thread was very useful to me. Now I know that I need to watch the movie unriffed first, then the riffed version.
Quote from: Nergol on April 27, 2010, 10:08:19 PM
QuoteIt's a plot device.
Well, sure, but so was everyone's instant and irresistible attraction to Lisa and her red dress. That doesn't mean it makes any sense.
But Lisa looked so BEAUTIFUL!
Quote from: MartyS (Gromit) on April 27, 2010, 08:59:10 PM
Do you think he would do the transfer, giving up his human body, if his legs were working?
I don't know about you, but I'd certainly like to have bones comprised of naturally-occuring carbon fiber.
What was with all of the blatant new age garbage in this movie? It was a lot like the Force in the Star Wars movies.
I also thought it would be more family-friendly. They said G** D*** almost as many times as the Matrix movies.
How come no one ever uses the name of Buddha, Mohammad, Confucius or Mother nature to curse with?
Just wondering......
Quote from: Chiliking20 on April 29, 2010, 04:09:50 PM
What was with all of the blatant new age garbage in this movie? It was a lot like the Force in the Star Wars movies.
I also thought it would be more family-friendly. They said G** D*** almost as many times as the Matrix movies.
How come no one ever uses the name of Buddha, Mohammad, Confucius or Mother nature to curse with?
Just wondering......
*cough, cough*
(https://forum.rifftrax.com/proxy.php?request=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.stinkbrown.org%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2010%2F01%2Fconan-by-crom.jpg&hash=21ebbf0081a17dad8c4d56fc7b873993f58f68cd)
Quote from: Bob on April 28, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Okay, this thread was very useful to me. Now I know that I need to watch the movie unriffed first, then the riffed version.
Ahem, allow me to quote myself.....
I watched this last night..... and I kinda liked it! I was expecting to hate it with everything I have read about it, but I actually liked it. I hate it when my preconcieved notions turn out to be wrong.
Quote from: Bob on May 01, 2010, 12:03:26 PM
Quote from: Bob on April 28, 2010, 08:47:03 AM
Okay, this thread was very useful to me. Now I know that I need to watch the movie unriffed first, then the riffed version.
Ahem, allow me to quote myself.....
I watched this last night..... and I kinda liked it! I was expecting to hate it with everything I have read about it, but I actually liked it. I hate it when my preconcieved notions turn out to be wrong.
After a week of watching it riffed several times and only watching certain scenes un-riffed on my big TV, I watched the entire blu-ray un-riffed last night on my computer since it gives me the best resolution, I was really looking to read the text on the computer displays and the small print on walls and equipment. But I also started really paying attention to the stuff in the background. This movie is really way more enjoyable if you only pay minor attention to the dialog, casual attention to the main action, and really concentrate on the visual details, that's the way it was for me in the 3D theater although not as clean an image as the 2D blu-ray on my PC display. So, if you can ignore the stuff that makes you think about why stuff is happening and try to immerse yourself in the visuals, you hardly ever feel the need to hit the fast forward button (I did only once to skip the endless tree falling scene).