Author Topic: the bible  (Read 14138 times)

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Offline basselope

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Re: the bible
« Reply #45 on: April 16, 2008, 07:57:56 AM »
Hmmm... interesting.
I was doing a little digging into the Council of Nicea and came across this short article.
http://www.gotquestions.org/Constantine-Bible.html
I was always under the impression that the Council of Nicea was the first large scale attempt to codify  a standard text for the Bible. This article had this to say:
Quote
Constantine (and the Council of Nicea, for that matter) had virtually nothing to do with the forming of the canon. It was not even discussed at Nicea. The council that formed an undisputed decision on the canon took place at Carthage in 397 (60 years after Constantine's death).

I'm gonna have to dig a little deeper on this one.
(this is exactly why I have so many projects that never seem to end!)  :D
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Offline basselope

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Re: the bible
« Reply #46 on: April 16, 2008, 11:14:55 AM »
Yeah, Nicaea was just the "filioque" controversy, no?

New term on me... but Google says "Yes".  ;D
(I add this more for peer review than instruction)
It seems that the Arian stance that Jesus was created rather than literally of God was the major impetus for the council.
The council also set a general stance for proper Christian faith rather than any textual editing.
This, in turn, set the stage for an eventual textual canonization 60 years later in Carthage.

Admittedly a very shallow description, but I think I've got it now.
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Offline Tripe

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Re: the bible
« Reply #47 on: April 16, 2008, 11:24:11 AM »
It seems that the Arian stance that Jesus was created rather than literally of God was the major impetus for the council.

The way Christianity treated Arianism was terribly ungrateful considering it had won Christianity the most converts at the beginning.

And to be honest most people are more in line with believing the Holy Spirit comes from God and Jesus does likewise rather than believing She's some sort of joint product of J-man and his Dad.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 11:31:26 AM by TripeHoundRedux »


Offline basselope

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Re: the bible
« Reply #48 on: April 16, 2008, 11:41:55 AM »
Check out the Gospel of Nicodemus sometime. I believe it's the source for the non-canonical but fairly well known "Harrowing of Hell," where the big J goes to Hell to free the pious (but non-Christian) who came before him.  It was one of the texts that got cut after the 4th century, along with the Gospel of Thomas (which itself is just sort of weird).

I've seen some of the PBS stuff about these (actually I think it was "Forbidden Books of the Bible" or something of the sort) and it looked very interesting indeed. I love this sort of stuff! Not for any fact checking missions so much as for what it says about how other folks viewed the subject. Like the Noah story from around (I believe) the Caucus Georgia region wherein Noah is brought a bit of Grape Vine by a crow rather than an Olive branch and Dove. Upon coming to ground Noah plants the vine, grows the Grapes, makes wine, gets drunk and throws up.
I don't understand why that one got left out!  ;D

For me, at least, it brings the whole thing back to the people rather than leaving it at the pulpit.
Looks like I have another project!  ;)
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Offline Tripe

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Re: the bible
« Reply #49 on: April 16, 2008, 11:48:13 AM »
Check out the Gospel of Nicodemus sometime. I believe it's the source for the non-canonical but fairly well known "Harrowing of Hell," where the big J goes to Hell to free the pious (but non-Christian) who came before him.  It was one of the texts that got cut after the 4th century, along with the Gospel of Thomas (which itself is just sort of weird).

I've seen some of the PBS stuff about these (actually I think it was "Forbidden Books of the Bible" or something of the sort) and it looked very interesting indeed. I love this sort of stuff! Not for any fact checking missions so much as for what it says about how other folks viewed the subject. Like the Noah story from around (I believe) the Caucus Georgia region wherein Noah is brought a bit of Grape Vine by a crow rather than an Olive branch and Dove. Upon coming to ground Noah plants the vine, grows the Grapes, makes wine, gets drunk and throws up.
I don't understand why that one got left out!  ;D

Especially when the drunk and naked Noah is left in:

Quote
Genesis 9
18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
 20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
       "Cursed be Canaan!
       The lowest of slaves
       will he be to his brothers."

 26 He also said,
       "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
       May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

27 May God extend the territory of Japheth;
       may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
       and may Canaan be his slave."


The Book of Enoch is worth a look too.


« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 11:51:56 AM by TripeHoundRedux »


Offline DarthChimay

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Re: the bible
« Reply #50 on: April 16, 2008, 01:21:36 PM »
I dunno... it's far less salacious than when Lot got drunk and his two daughters decided to "lay with him," and each gave birth to the head of a tribe (Moabites and Ammonites).

It sounds so dirty, but it really is kind of a common origin myth for early tribes, especially if you think of Lot as a god instead of a human. Same with Noah; there's some evidence in the bible that he was considered by the early Israelites to be the god of wine.


Offline basselope

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Re: the bible
« Reply #51 on: April 16, 2008, 01:28:51 PM »
Quote
Genesis 9
18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
 20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

Well I'll be hornswoggled... I didn't remember that part being in the KJV. Brain's goin' to mush faster than I thought. Pretty soon I'll be chuckin' rocks at the neighbor kids and tellin' em to "git offa my lawn!"

Thx for the pointer... and for not calling the Inquisition on me!  :D

I dunno... it's far less salacious than when Lot got drunk and his two daughters decided to "lay with him," and each gave birth to the head of a tribe (Moabites and Ammonites).

It sounds so dirty, but it really is kind of a common origin myth for early tribes,...

Maybe that's where the old European monarchies found their moral justification.
Probably not so much for Billy Bob and Lulu Mae, tho.
« Last Edit: April 16, 2008, 01:38:13 PM by basselope »
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Offline Tyrant

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Re: the bible
« Reply #52 on: April 16, 2008, 01:44:55 PM »


 24 When Noah awoke from his wine and found out what his youngest son had done to him, 25 he said,
       "Cursed be Canaan!
       The lowest of slaves
       will he be to his brothers."

 26 He also said,
       "Blessed be the LORD, the God of Shem!
       May Canaan be the slave of Shem.

27 May God extend the territory of Japheth;
       may Japheth live in the tents of Shem,
       and may Canaan be his slave."



***  Translated from Noah's drunken slurred yelling.  ;D



Offline DarthChimay

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Re: the bible
« Reply #53 on: April 16, 2008, 03:29:02 PM »
Quote
Genesis 9
18 The sons of Noah who came out of the ark were Shem, Ham and Japheth. (Ham was the father of Canaan.) 19 These were the three sons of Noah, and from them came the people who were scattered over the earth.
 20 Noah, a man of the soil, proceeded [a] to plant a vineyard. 21 When he drank some of its wine, he became drunk and lay uncovered inside his tent. 22 Ham, the father of Canaan, saw his father's nakedness and told his two brothers outside. 23 But Shem and Japheth took a garment and laid it across their shoulders; then they walked in backward and covered their father's nakedness. Their faces were turned the other way so that they would not see their father's nakedness.

Well I'll be hornswoggled... I didn't remember that part being in the KJV. Brain's goin' to mush faster than I thought. Pretty soon I'll be chuckin' rocks at the neighbor kids and tellin' em to "git offa my lawn!"

Thx for the pointer... and for not calling the Inquisition on me!  :D

I dunno... it's far less salacious than when Lot got drunk and his two daughters decided to "lay with him," and each gave birth to the head of a tribe (Moabites and Ammonites).

It sounds so dirty, but it really is kind of a common origin myth for early tribes,...

Maybe that's where the old European monarchies found their moral justification.
Probably not so much for Billy Bob and Lulu Mae, tho.


Yeah, it's fairly common practice for royals to claim divine ancestry in all the cultures I've studied, going back to about 1200 BC. I don't do the near or far east, so maybe someone can chime in there.

From what I remember, such tales as the Lot tale, and the tale of Esau (the red hair being a dead giveaway), aren't so much about royal lines as they are about entire peoples. I seem to remember the Egyptians having similar tales, as well as the Greeks. I can't think of any specifics right now and I can't look them up since I'm at work, but I'm sure there are examples out there.


Offline Fortis

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Re: the bible
« Reply #54 on: April 16, 2008, 04:02:34 PM »
Well I claim descent from Noah!


 ???



Offline basselope

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Re: the bible
« Reply #55 on: April 16, 2008, 05:57:57 PM »
Yeah, it's fairly common practice for royals to claim divine ancestry in all the cultures I've studied, going back to about 1200 BC. I don't do the near or far east, so maybe someone can chime in there.

Actually I was commenting on the inbreeding aspect... tongue in cheek, you understand.
(poor joke... just as well it flopped.)

***  Translated from Noah's drunken slurred yelling.  ;D

And Noah bade them; "Get thee from my lawn."
Then did he cast stones at them and fall back upon the ground.


On a more serious note, I am genuinely impressed at the level of competent discussion all over this board. Not that I'm anything special at all, but it isn't often I see this on a protracted basis.

And on that note I'll keep my mouth shut unless I have something to say that actually adds to the discussion.
They only killed half the Dinosaurs... they made the other half watch!


Offline Tripe

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Re: the bible
« Reply #56 on: April 16, 2008, 06:00:10 PM »
On a more serious note, I am genuinely impressed at the level of competent discussion all over this board. Not that I'm anything special at all, but it isn't often I see this on a protracted basis.

The majority of us and certainly the regulars are really quite bright all things considered. :)


Offline Fortis

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Re: the bible
« Reply #57 on: April 16, 2008, 06:11:23 PM »
On a more serious note, I am genuinely impressed at the level of competent discussion all over this board. Not that I'm anything special at all, but it isn't often I see this on a protracted basis.

The majority of us and certainly the regulars are really quite bright all things considered. :)

To add to this self-congratulatory circlejerk, I can't STAND being on other fora (yes, that one was just for pedantry), because the level of discourse is usually:

ur stoopd n i thnk u shud hehe lol

You just summed up half of what you see on youtube, and anything really anywhere on the internet...it seems that the rifftrax forums are where all of the intelligent people gather...


Offline DarthChimay

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Re: the bible
« Reply #58 on: April 16, 2008, 07:16:55 PM »
On a more serious note, I am genuinely impressed at the level of competent discussion all over this board. Not that I'm anything special at all, but it isn't often I see this on a protracted basis.

The majority of us and certainly the regulars are really quite bright all things considered. :)

I pooped my pants.


Offline Tripe

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Re: the bible
« Reply #59 on: April 16, 2008, 07:18:28 PM »
You'll note I specified "majority"  ;)