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Author Topic: Breaking bad, you watching it?  (Read 80076 times)

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Offline Space version 2.0

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #930 on: December 12, 2013, 12:23:26 PM »
In the context of the show he cooked method which led to the ruining of hundreds/thousands of lives.



Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #931 on: December 12, 2013, 12:40:13 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.


Offline Thrifty Version II

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #932 on: December 12, 2013, 03:26:50 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.


Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #933 on: December 12, 2013, 03:31:43 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.

Well, the flaw in that argument would be that "then there would be no show." And, ironically, that also cancels out o my own argument. If everybody just did the right thing there would be no conflict.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #934 on: December 12, 2013, 03:44:28 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.

Well, the flaw in that argument would be that "then there would be no show." And, ironically, that also cancels out o my own argument. If everybody just did the right thing there would be no conflict.

Neither of those alternatives would have made for a better show.  Luckily the character of Walt was defined enough so that not taking the money from Gretchen and Eliot made sense in terms of his wounded pride. 

Also, everyone who turned against Walt was completely justified in doing so.  Maybe, yes, if they'd listened to his plans and gone along with him things might have turned out much differently, but then again maybe not.  Walt had not only actively ruined or destroyed many lives, he had proven to be self-destructive.  Any time things started to calm down in his life, he became his own worst enemy and created the next wave of chaos.  If that had been allowed to continue, who knows how many more people would have been hurt.
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Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #935 on: December 12, 2013, 06:22:24 PM »
Well, I agree that Walt bears a great deal of responsibility for a lot of stuff that happened, but I'm apprehensive about putting it all there. Almost everybody made decisions that had consequences, and Walt is only responsible for them indirectly.

For example; Jane's death, which wasn't Walt's fault, was what sent Q into a downward spiral emotionally, no question. Walt could have prevented that, but he didn't. However, it was entirely Q's decision to return to work. You can't blame him for wanting to get on with his life, but it was his decision that caused that plane crash.

Another example, I don't believe that Hank's death is really Walt's fault at all. He definitely set in motion the events that led to it, but so many other people making poor decisions contributed to the escalation, something Walt was trying desperately to prevent. He was trying to make things right with both Hank and Jesse the entire season and was opening doors for both of them left and right. He even called off Jack and his thugs and gave himself up, and after that went south he tried to buy Hank's life. He was willing to part with his entire fortune if it saved Hank's life. However! However I will admit that this was the end result of most of Walt's crimes. It's kind of a conundrum, really. Did he cause Hank's death? I'm gonna say probably, but it wasn't just him.

So, does a lot of blame deserve to go to Walt? Hell, even the majority of the blame? I say yes. Killing Mike when he didn't have to, I think, was probably the most heinous, unforgivable thing he did on that show. The guys in prison I don't really care about so much, because you could kinda tell that they were all headed for the graveyard from the word go and also because we didn't know them as well as we knew Mike. But does he deserve ALL the blame for everything that happened? Absolutely not. Hank, Jesse, Skyler and Gus all bear a great deal of responsibility as well, that's all I'm saying. I hope I'm not coming across as a know-it-all dick, because that's not how I'm intending this to sound. I just want to explain why I think what I think.


Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #936 on: December 12, 2013, 06:32:01 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.

And honestly, man, I'll never understand why you take this show so seriously. If Walt were an angel, the show would have done worse than suck, it would have been non-existent. You have to have drama. I get that people really like to get into these kind of shows, I do. These things are big parts of our lives because we devote so much time and emotion into them. But in the end it's just a show. Walter White isn't real. It's entertainment. I'll never understand why you take such offense to me looking at the show in a different way than you do. Really. You have called me a horrible person for it. "You are really starting to offend me, blah, blah, blah," well, I'm sorry about that, but it sounds to me like a personal problem.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #937 on: December 12, 2013, 06:58:27 PM »
Well, I agree that Walt bears a great deal of responsibility for a lot of stuff that happened, but I'm apprehensive about putting it all there. Almost everybody made decisions that had consequences, and Walt is only responsible for them indirectly.

For example; Jane's death, which wasn't Walt's fault, was what sent Q into a downward spiral emotionally, no question. Walt could have prevented that, but he didn't. However, it was entirely Q's decision to return to work. You can't blame him for wanting to get on with his life, but it was his decision that caused that plane crash.

Another example, I don't believe that Hank's death is really Walt's fault at all. He definitely set in motion the events that led to it, but so many other people making poor decisions contributed to the escalation, something Walt was trying desperately to prevent. He was trying to make things right with both Hank and Jesse the entire season and was opening doors for both of them left and right. He even called off Jack and his thugs and gave himself up, and after that went south he tried to buy Hank's life. He was willing to part with his entire fortune if it saved Hank's life. However! However I will admit that this was the end result of most of Walt's crimes. It's kind of a conundrum, really. Did he cause Hank's death? I'm gonna say probably, but it wasn't just him.

So, does a lot of blame deserve to go to Walt? Hell, even the majority of the blame? I say yes. Killing Mike when he didn't have to, I think, was probably the most heinous, unforgivable thing he did on that show. The guys in prison I don't really care about so much, because you could kinda tell that they were all headed for the graveyard from the word go and also because we didn't know them as well as we knew Mike. But does he deserve ALL the blame for everything that happened? Absolutely not. Hank, Jesse, Skyler and Gus all bear a great deal of responsibility as well, that's all I'm saying. I hope I'm not coming across as a know-it-all dick, because that's not how I'm intending this to sound. I just want to explain why I think what I think.

I'm just enjoying the fact that it's still possible to debate the show, it shows that it's still rich that there's still something to talk about this long after the finale.

Of course, Walter doesn't deserve ALL of the blame, there were a lot of bad decisions all around.  In the end though, he chose to remain in a business that provides nothing but evil in exchange for money.  Every customer that bought blue, whether we saw them or not, suffered by being exposed to a purer and, I'm assuming, more addictive form of meth.  Was it thier decision to buy and use drugs?  Yes.  But it was Walter's fault that they even had that opportunity.  He had several opportunities to walk away, and minimize the damage he had already done, and he always chose to go the way of greed and selfishness, making things worse.  In the end he was able to help his family and Jessie, and several of the people he actively killed were outright monsters, but beyond those points he left the world around him a worse place through his presence.
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Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #938 on: December 12, 2013, 07:50:56 PM »
And the process of trying to make everything right cost him his life. I think in a lot of ways, at least in television, that self-sacrifice or being killed trying to make up for what you did constitutes absolution for that character. Consider Michael from Lost. He got blown up trying to redeem himself and help his friends, he paid the ultimate price. Like David Morse said in the Green Mile, "He's square with the house again." I tend to have that mindset when it comes to death and redemption within the context of a television world, which is why I was kind of mad at the writers for making him a ghost on the Island instead of putting him in the chapel in the series finale. Hell, Ben committed way more murders than Michael did, and not only did he make it into the Sideways world, he was forgiven by Locke and personally invited to join the group of FRIENDS inside the chapel. That really was my only complaint about the last season of Lost. Well, that and Frank's almost irrelevance throughout the season until the finale. He was basically luggage and had a much less significant role compared to seasons 4 & 5. I really wish they hadn't just written off the mystery of his backstory in an anticlimactic, matter of fact conversation with Ben, especially when the answer to all that was "I overslept." WHAT?! That's all we get?! FUCK YOU, LOST! Out of ALL the stuff that got little to no explanation in the last season, this was the ONLY ONE that pissed me off because I really wanted to know why the hell that guy was so goddamn special, but I ramble on. Getting back to Breaking Bad...

Regarding the last scene, I loved how they had it both ways with Walt. That song they chose not only acknowledged that Walt got what he deserved by losing his family and dying, but also played to Walt's final satisfaction with his life. He died in a place that made him happy and where he was the best at what he did. When Walt gets upset with Jesse about quitting in "Say My Name," he's not wrong about walking away from something that you are the absolute best at, something that gives your life meaning and raises you above a merely adequate existence. I think striving for something like that is important in life, and this is how the show handles that topic. In the end, Walt dies happy, knowing his succeeded in his original goal which was to take care of his family after he was gone, while at the same time paying the price for the actions he took to accomplish that. And it's also a very happy ending for the audience. How you feel when the show is over will inform how you look back on the series for the rest of your life, and the feelings invoked by the images combined with the music and lyrics definitely leaves us with a feeling of satisfaction and the feeling that the entire ride was worth it.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 09:50:31 PM by Sugar Ray Dodge »


Offline Thrifty Version II

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #939 on: December 12, 2013, 07:53:59 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.

And honestly, man, I'll never understand why you take this show so seriously. If Walt were an angel, the show would have done worse than suck, it would have been non-existent. You have to have drama. I get that people really like to get into these kind of shows, I do. These things are big parts of our lives because we devote so much time and emotion into them. But in the end it's just a show. Walter White isn't real. It's entertainment. I'll never understand why you take such offense to me looking at the show in a different way than you do. Really. You have called me a horrible person for it. "You are really starting to offend me, blah, blah, blah," well, I'm sorry about that, but it sounds to me like a personal problem.
I don't take it seriously.  You're the one who keeps bringing this up. 

I do, however, take stupid arguments seriously.  I do point out flawed thinking patterns that try to take a fictional character who is clearly a villain and trying to exonerate him through strained logic.  Do you write essays on how poor Scrooge was bullied by those awful ghosts?  Or how Lex Luthor was just an ambitious businessman done in by meddling Superman?  These apologetic posts you write are just so offensively stupid.  What did you expect?


Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #940 on: December 12, 2013, 07:54:15 PM »
Of course, Walter doesn't deserve ALL of the blame, there were a lot of bad decisions all around.  In the end though, he chose to remain in a business that provides nothing but evil in exchange for money.  Every customer that bought blue, whether we saw them or not, suffered by being exposed to a purer and, I'm assuming, more addictive form of meth.  Was it thier decision to buy and use drugs?  Yes.  But it was Walter's fault that they even had that opportunity.  He had several opportunities to walk away, and minimize the damage he had already done, and he always chose to go the way of greed and selfishness, making things worse.  In the end he was able to help his family and Jessie, and several of the people he actively killed were outright monsters, but beyond those points he left the world around him a worse place through his presence.

I will definitely concede that Walt left the world in a worse state than he otherwise would have. I don't think that's arguable at all.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #941 on: December 12, 2013, 07:57:07 PM »
I agree that there was a level of absolution in the ending, but it wasn't total.  He was seeking absolution on many fronts, and one of the most telling aspects of that search is that he stopped lying to himself and Skylar at the end.  The "I did it for me" scene was one of the most important parts of the finale for me.  He finally stopped making excuses, and accepted punishment, while trying to save everyone he could.  He didn't realy expect to be completely forgiven, he knew he was far beyond that.
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Offline Johnny Unusual

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #942 on: December 12, 2013, 08:05:53 PM »
Yeah, I think it was more about winning than forgiveness.  That's not to say that he didn't care about whether his family was taken care of, but Walt must admit he put himself first.  Still, getting his family taken care of and the nazis "taken care of" is part of his big victory.  The only thing he didn't win in his otherwise total victory was getting killed by Jessie, but Jessie cares far less about victory than he does survival.  And the whole Jessie thing was a loss he could live with, especially since that was the one thing that didn't go down like he expected (and since this whole revenge was started because he thought he was betrayed because Jessie was alive).  I think in the end that Walter is a monster, but he is still a very human monster with some screwed-up priorities.


Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #943 on: December 12, 2013, 08:23:20 PM »
And Walt was the only person who made decisions for everybody? Huh, that's weird. I wish I had that kinda power.
He certainly made the decision to have about a dozen witnesses killed.

What Walt could have done is left his ego in check, taken Gretchen and Elliot up on their offer to pay his medical bills, and NOT become a murderous, life ruining criminal.

And honestly, man, I'll never understand why you take this show so seriously. If Walt were an angel, the show would have done worse than suck, it would have been non-existent. You have to have drama. I get that people really like to get into these kind of shows, I do. These things are big parts of our lives because we devote so much time and emotion into them. But in the end it's just a show. Walter White isn't real. It's entertainment. I'll never understand why you take such offense to me looking at the show in a different way than you do. Really. You have called me a horrible person for it. "You are really starting to offend me, blah, blah, blah," well, I'm sorry about that, but it sounds to me like a personal problem.
I don't take it seriously.  You're the one who keeps bringing this up. 

I do, however, take stupid arguments seriously.  I do point out flawed thinking patterns that try to take a fictional character who is clearly a villain and trying to exonerate him through strained logic.  Do you write essays on how poor Scrooge was bullied by those awful ghosts?  Or how Lex Luthor was just an ambitious businessman done in by meddling Superman?  These apologetic posts you write are just so offensively stupid.  What did you expect?

Okay, first of all, the fact that you can't argue with any of my points without calling me stupid and not offering any legitimate counterpoints shows what an utterly horrible debater you are. You can't or won't counter anything I say with a rational argument, you just call names, so please tell me why I should take you seriously. You have even FAILED to articulate WHY I or my opinions are offensive and stupid. I come to this thread with "This is what I think and these are the examples of why I think it." But you can't or won't do that. You're so offended that I don't see things the way you do, for God knows what reason, that you only respond with self-important, mean-spirited and emotional rants against me personally. You can disagree with me all day long, I'm totally cool with that, but to say I'm stupid because I offer an opinion you don't like is arrogant and lazy. You have NEVER "pointed out flawed thinking patterns." Not once. Ever. You're views are NOT axiomatic, dude. You declaring something is stupid because it's not the way you see things isn't an argument. In fact, it's the polar opposite of an argument. It's the utter absence of one.

And on this "horrible person" business, seriously man, what the hell have I ever done to you or to anybody else here that is so goddamn bad that it constitutes me being a horrible person? And we're not even talking about me, we're talking about the show and the characters. The fact that you want to make the argument about me and not the show PROVES that you take the show way too seriously. The fact that a different take on the show is OFFENSIVE says more about YOU as a person than it does about me. I won't say you're a horrible or stupid person, because, believe it or not, I'm a nice fucking guy.

EDIT: OH! And one more thing, then I'll shut up. Does it make somebody a horrible person to root for a serial killer who commits WAY MORE COLD BLOODED MURDERS than Walt ever did just because he happens to be the show's protagonist. Check with the fans of Dexter on that one, because, for all his charm and ethics, Dexter Morgan is an utter monster who deserves to die by this standard a lot more than Walter White. I'm not trying to talk down Dexter, because I actually think it's a good show despite the fact that it makes me uneasy from the sheer volume of horrific murders it features, I'm just trying to make a point. Walt is the protagonist on his show, just like Dexter is, and it isn't unreasonable to root for the protagonist. That's all I'm saying.
« Last Edit: December 12, 2013, 08:43:17 PM by Sugar Ray Dodge »


Offline Sugar Ray Dodge

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Re: Breaking bad, you watching it?
« Reply #944 on: December 12, 2013, 08:27:29 PM »
Yeah, I think it was more about winning than forgiveness.  That's not to say that he didn't care about whether his family was taken care of, but Walt must admit he put himself first.  Still, getting his family taken care of and the nazis "taken care of" is part of his big victory.  The only thing he didn't win in his otherwise total victory was getting killed by Jessie, but Jessie cares far less about victory than he does survival.  And the whole Jessie thing was a loss he could live with, especially since that was the one thing that didn't go down like he expected (and since this whole revenge was started because he thought he was betrayed because Jessie was alive).  I think in the end that Walter is a monster, but he is still a very human monster with some screwed-up priorities.

I think I can go along with this, actually. Although, I would argue that guilt, revenge and absolution fueled his desire to win. I think you're last sentence pretty much sums it all up.