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Author Topic: Terry Goodkind  (Read 6827 times)

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Offline borg48

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #15 on: September 19, 2009, 03:56:47 PM »
I think a little misleading is a "little" bit of an understatement if you go back and read your original post.  I guess you did not mean "read" but "people who read fantasy novels".  By the way you stereotype people who read something different than what you read I would still recommend you study logic some more cause you do not seem to be able to apply it very well :P

Secondly I'm not hating on the the books to show you that I'm enlightened.  I am hating on the books because they deserve it.  Yes I do enjoy parts of the books because parts of it are good, but parts of it are also really really bad, does that mean I should fanboy up and just tell everyone how good it was?  Since we are discussing the books I thought I should voice my entire, real, opinion about the series.  Books can be a lot like movies, you can hate an actor but like a movie they were in, and hate a movie but still like one characters acting / role in that bad movie.  I really liked Zedd's character in the early books, but as the series got closer to the end (basically all of the chainfire trilogy I believe) his character was basically relegated to screwing up a lot so that Richard could fix things and we could find out more about how Richards power works.  Anne was also effected by this too.  Nathan I assume would have been similarly effected but thankfully he had other roles in the book that led him out of being totally overcome.  I know part of this was because of the chainfire event but it just seems like bad writing to me.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
   

I was going to add more to this but I have to go, please make another post when you are done with the book I would be interested to see what you thought of the ending.


Moleman

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #16 on: September 21, 2009, 09:34:53 AM »
OK I can definitely see why you wanted to know what I thought of the ending.

MAJOR SPOILER ALERT
Spoiler (click to show/hide)

I still haven't read the prequel novel yet but I am going to check it out and eventually get to this other book Goodkind wrote but for now I think I'm going to take a nice long break from reading.  Hopefully the opinion I wrote in the spoiler had enough negativity to be "complete" enough for you, borg48, so you don't think that just because I enjoy something I must be a mindless Terry Goodkind sicko-fan who doesn't understand logic.
« Last Edit: September 21, 2009, 09:40:28 AM by Moleman »


Offline The Man in Black

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #17 on: October 03, 2009, 11:42:12 AM »
I get that Terry Goodkind uses strawman fallacies and sock-puppet characters as bullhorns for his ridiculous ideology.

What kind of series has a totalitarian leader that  both
1. Lectures people about how they should be independent and think for themselves and
2. Has them WORSHIP HIM for an hour each day.

:clap:

I agree whole heartily with this. I have no problem with Rand's books, expect Atlas Shrugged where she pulled the same...thing..as well. In face the Fountainhead is one of my favorite novels of all time. It take the statement, "Being selfless is good", asked "WHY though? Maybe being a selfish prick is nice once and awhile too, if your not harming anyone by doing."

But yeah, the hypocrisy in this makes me want to hurl. It wrong when a king kicks in the face, and uses human shields...but WHEN THE HERO DOES IT, ITS GOOD AND YOUR WRONG TO QUESTION HIM!


If you want to read a good Randian work, read Anthem or The Fountainhead...avoid everything after that.


Moleman

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #18 on: October 03, 2009, 01:51:59 PM »
 :-\ Three of you now?  You really can't look at a situation and make a judgment?  Oh well.  We're all different people I guess.


Anyways, I read the prequel and despite my love for the rest of this series this short little story was pretty pointless.  There is no real lesson in the book and its just a little story about how the boundary went up.  Its pretty hard to relate to the dilemma the main character goes through since we know the Lord Raul is evil and would never honor any bargain.  So this one is a waste of time.

I found out that the most recent book Law of Nines is actually a sequel to the series.  I thought it was a completely different book with no relation whatsoever but its a sequel of sorts and set some thousands of years in the future.  So I bought it, read it, and really enjoyed it.  This one seemed much more like a Sci-fi movie and I was much more interested in the actual story.  There's no wizard's rules in this one and I really don't remember any ideology other than one comment about gun ownership not being viewed as lightly in Boston as in Nebraska.  Other than that its much more of a standard story so far less people should have a problem with it.

Now that I've read all 13 books, here's how I rank them:

Book 6: Faith of the Fallen
Book 8: Naked Empire
Book 1: Wizard's First Rule
Law of Nines
Book 4: Temple of the Winds
Book 2: Stone of Tears
Book 11: Confessor (This would be 3rd if not for the ending)
Book 10: Phantoms
Book 5: Soul of Fire
Book 3: Blood of the Fold
Book 7: Pillars of Creation
Book 9: Chainfire
Book 0: Debt of Bones

All are great until Pillars of Creation which was OK. Chainfire was kind of "meh" and then Debt of Bones is just pointless unless you just want to have all the books and complete the set.
« Last Edit: October 03, 2009, 01:54:11 PM by Moleman »


Offline AmazingThor

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #19 on: October 13, 2009, 09:37:35 AM »
Here's where I quit the series: Richard has "forced" S&M sex with a Mord Sith. Kind of pervy and juvenile but okay. Later, Kahlan is about to be gang raped in a pitch black dungeon and she thinks to herself that if Richard could "endure" his forced sex then she could endure her gang raping. Umm...no. No woman would ever, ever, ever think something like that. Goodkind's little bondage fantasy in the first book does not even begin to compare to being gang raped by filthy prisoners in a dank dungeon. I put the book down exactly at that moment and haven't given the series a second thought.


Although I actually like the TV series but mostly because I think the woman they got to play Kahlan is insanely hot :)


Offline Fuzzy Necromancer

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #20 on: December 06, 2009, 03:08:18 PM »
I think that any rape is traumatizing, regardless of the setting, but it does illustrate the inconsistancy of his characters. Kahlan gets almost-raped a lot in the series, and as far as I know, she didn't display that 'Well, my boyfriend got raped, so I can survive this utterly violation of self and psychological torment no problem. Stiff upper lip and all!" on any other incident. Richard got extensively tortured with magical pain-zappers, but she doesn't think "Well, my boyfriend got the everliving shit beat out of him, so I shouldn't complain about these ruffians kicking me and grinding me into the dirt to the point where
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
."

It's a failure of character consistency and a failure of logic. That's the facts, as Sam the Keeper would say. The degree to which it offends or repulses is a subjective judgement. Terry is willing to employ gross narrative contrivance to get what he wants in his story, whether that's a dubious philosophical lecture or off-putting fanservice.  When a writer does that, the work suffers.

I wasn't turned on by the torture S&M stuff. I wasn't offended by it. I was bored and just wondered when it would end. Since I was doing shelving work and still had some narrative inertia and sunk-cost motivating me, I continued to the end of the audiobook, but if I was reading it today, that would make me give up. When you have a book that large, you had better make sure the material in it serves the purpose.
Love doesn't hurt. It kills.

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Moleman

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #21 on: December 06, 2009, 06:00:48 PM »
I was bored

What's wrong with that?  You were bored and you didn't like it.  That's all you have to say.  You don't have to try to prove that the author has something wrong with him all because he wasn't able to write a story that satisfied you. *sigh.


I'll just say this for anyone who might be interested in checking out books by this author:

-If you think reading and education makes you "smarter" as opposed to simply more knowledgeable then stay far away from this author because you'll never get it.

-If you know exactly what I mean by the above sentence then this is a MUST READ.  You'll find something in these books so greatly lacking in most forms of media today.


Offline Fuzzy Necromancer

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #22 on: December 09, 2009, 03:04:06 PM »
Quote
-If you think reading and education makes you "smarter" as opposed to simply more knowledgeable then stay far away from this author because you'll never get it.

I don't.

My boredom is relevant because I am analyzing the books as works of art, because there is no STAKE in that section of the novel, no plot progression, no relevance. I do have to explain and justify my position and why I think it is a bad book, rather than one that merely fails to entertain me, personally, because this is a discussion thread, and that is how the process of debate works. You don't need to presume that I'm an ivory tower scholar with an elitist ax to grind just because I have a rather roundabout way of talking.

Quote
-If you know exactly what I mean by the above sentence then this is a MUST READ.  You'll find something in these books so greatly lacking in most forms of media today.
I don't follow you. Pretentiousness, sketchy philosophical preaching, and quasi-randian bootstrap ideology are all present in contemporary media.


I object to his work as a reader, and as a writer, and especially as a fantasy writer.

Terry Goodkind claims that he doesn't write "fantasy," he writes "stories with important human themes." This is a load of pretentious bullshit. It aggrandizes himself by implying that he's "better" than the fantasy genre, and that fantasy authors do not write "stories with important human themes."  Also, you know, he's a guy who writes stories about prophecies, wizards, dragons, and magical swords, claiming that he doesn't write fantasy. Yeah Goodkind, you don't write fantasy, and Larry Craig reads issues of PlayGirl for the articles, you hypocritical, condescending windbag.
« Last Edit: May 12, 2010, 08:50:00 AM by Fuzzy Necromancer »
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Offline PantisMantis

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #23 on: March 04, 2010, 05:41:04 AM »
Well nobody's posted on here in a while but I thought I'd tag one on anyway. I read the series back when it first started and I had to wait for Stone of Tears to come out(well it wasn't a series yet but anywho) and was a huge fan. I still like the books as a gripping read with some great concepts about magic and all that but I gotta say, after Soul of Fire, the series went WAY downhill. I read Faith of the Fallen and almost stopped half way through. I mean, come on, carving a statue that makes everyone freak out like that? Total crap. Also, in between waiting on the newest book to be released(I think it was Blood of the Fold) I read a little number called Eye of the World. Now I'm not gonna go into it cuz this is a Terry Goodkind thread but lets just say Goodkind has SHIT on Jordan. I also noticed a whole bunch of similarities between the two that Goodkind ripped off from Jordan. Back on track, though, Goodkind entertained me for a while but in the end I have to say the books are pretty poor quality. First off I agree with the previous statement that people cry way to freakin much plus they hug, squeeze each other, hold hands, and in general are more touchy-feely than a womens retreat. Also, in the beginning Richard can't get with Kahlan because she can't hold back her power when she...well you know but she either loses her power or has it blocked in every one of the first five books! I mean, WTF?! It's just plain stupid. :grr:
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Offline Fuzzy Necromancer

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #24 on: March 10, 2010, 07:07:07 PM »
PantisMantis, I refer you to my earlier comment about Terry Goodkind's use of "Instinctive Magic", IE, magic that functions or fails to function based on what is most convenient to the plot. -_-
Love doesn't hurt. It kills.

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Moleman

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #25 on: May 01, 2010, 11:03:39 PM »
There's apparently going to be a new "Richard and Kalhen novel" that comes out early 2011.


I thought the original Sword of Truth series was over at Confessor and he was going to do sequels to Law of Nines as a continuation instead.  It sounds like this is going to be book 12 taking place after Confessor.

As much of a fan I am of the series I'm actually a little disappointed by this news.  I was expecting a Law of Nines sequel with Alex going to the magic world and seeing what has changed in the thousands of years since Confessor ended.  I feel like I've had enough of Richard and Kalhen unless its about their kids or something.  I am curious why at the end of Law of Nines
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Maybe that will be answered in this new book.

It would also be interesting to see if Goodkind's writing style will change any as a result of the TV series.  Probably not but a lot of people, like myself, discovered the books from the show and he may write a little more for that audience now with more action.


Offline Chaos

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #26 on: May 03, 2010, 03:14:22 PM »
Sword of Truth and Faith of the Fallen were the only books in the series worth anything, the first because he hadn't managed to fuck it all up yet and the other because he threw out a lot of the crap and told a (relatively) compelling story. While FotF was still mired in a lot of his usual muck, it had a lot of strong thematic attraction, and was (again, relatively) well written. Everything since then was absolute crap. I'm deeply saddened to hear he's planning to revisit the *closed* series once again.

Oh, and I didn't think it would be possible for something to suck even more than the books, until I saw the TV show. How fucking big must the dump truck full of money have been to get Goodkind to actively endorse that steaming pile and say it was a perfect execution of his original vision? :P
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Offline Fuzzy Necromancer

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #27 on: May 16, 2010, 01:30:58 PM »
I get that Terry Goodkind uses strawman fallacies and sock-puppet characters as bullhorns for his ridiculous ideology.

What kind of series has a totalitarian leader that  both
1. Lectures people about how they should be independent and think for themselves and
2. Has them WORSHIP HIM for an hour each day.

:clap:

I agree whole heartily with this. I have no problem with Rand's books, expect Atlas Shrugged where she pulled the same...thing..as well. In face the Fountainhead is one of my favorite novels of all time. It take the statement, "Being selfless is good", asked "WHY though? Maybe being a selfish prick is nice once and awhile too, if your not harming anyone by doing."

But yeah, the hypocrisy in this makes me want to hurl. It wrong when a king kicks in the face, and uses human shields...but WHEN THE HERO DOES IT, ITS GOOD AND YOUR WRONG TO QUESTION HIM!


If you want to read a good Randian work, read Anthem or The Fountainhead...avoid everything after that.

Speaking of that, is it just me or does the plot of Faith of the Fallen seem eerily familiar to a certain copyrighted Rand work?
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Offline The Manatee

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #28 on: November 16, 2010, 02:20:55 PM »
I get that Terry Goodkind uses strawman fallacies and sock-puppet characters as bullhorns for his ridiculous ideology.

What kind of series has a totalitarian leader that  both
1. Lectures people about how they should be independent and think for themselves and
2. Has them WORSHIP HIM for an hour each day.

Book 1:
Terry Goodkind has bad guys do evil things that are very evil. Richard beats bad guys.
Book 2:
Richard does a lot of the evil things the bad guys did, but now they're okay, no, better than okay, morally necessary, because Richard is doing them, and anyone who disagrees is evil.
However, bad guys are doing more evil things that are evil.
Book 3:
See book 2
Book 4:
See book 3
Book 5:
I'm starting to notice a pattern here.


This is to say nothing of the way Goodkind uses "war wizards" with their "instinctive magic," IE, magic that works only when it is convenient to the plot and does whatever the author requires of it. XP

I object to Terry Goodkind in the strongest terms as a fantasy reader and a philosopher.

Also, can we go one book without our female lead being subjected to a vividly described almost-rape-scene?

This is the series where our hero winds up gleefully killing "evil" pacifists.
Also, writing stories where masses of people act improbably stupid and are easy to manipulate out of all proportion to established human behavior is not the same as proving that people are stupid and easy to manipulate.

Also, there's the whole "I don't write fantasy, I write stories with important human themes" aspect. I realize that the definition of the fantasy genre is somewhat nebulous, and there's lots of authors trying to avoid the stigma of being in a speculative fiction genre, but COME ON! You have a medieval society and technology level, magic swords, wizards, and dragons. You are writing FANTASY. >_<

Don't forget the evil chicken!

Terry is a randroid, with the objectivist versus individualist nonsense there entailed. The problem is like you say it's a straw man since there's no such thing as either of those. It's basically saying people who don't agree with me must be destroyed utterly!!! So the 'hero' orders rapes and punches a little girl in the face so her tongue is bitten off. Even if you agree anything is better than giving in to pure evil there's just no case where rape and beating young girls is something that furthers your cause.

Hitler is pointed out as the ultimate evil but really he operated as the 'hero' here does. He saw certain people and countries as his enemies and stopped at nothing to obliterate them, even destroying children and old people who obviously are not any threat whatsoever. So really sword of truth series is the kind of crap I'd expect if hitler wrote fantasy. It started off ok as a sort  of bland but not bad couple books but quickly degenerated into insane nonsensical fox news propaganda.


Moleman

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Re: Terry Goodkind
« Reply #29 on: November 17, 2010, 12:28:00 AM »
If anyone, even a little girl, was holding a torture stick to my chest and I'm about to pass out...you bet your ass I'll back hand the little shit and feel pretty good about it too.

I've actually been re-reading this series recently again and I made it to Chainfire when I had to stop for a while, again.  Chainfire is just a brickwall in the series and just seems like its beating you over the head with such a simple thing that happens in the story.  Did that really take 400 pages to explain?

After reading Naked Empire again its so cool how the post above me sounds exactly like the Bandakar who believe that killing is always wrong.  Even when an enemy is coming at you and killing you, it is wrong to kill back to defend yourself because killing is wrong.  There's no thought, just, killing is wrong.  The end.  Kind of like claiming backhanding a young girl is always wrong.  The end.  So there's NEVER a circumstance where its justified?  Ever?  Really?

Well Goodkind has already been called manipulative, evil, selfish, a supporter of genocide...shouldn't be too surprising he also falls victim to Godwin's law too.  I wish you dissenters could take a step back and just realize how silly you all sound.  I mean if you don't like the series fine but for fucks sake people.