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Author Topic: Completely Random Thoughts  (Read 1791385 times)

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Offline LucasM

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7170 on: March 09, 2013, 06:13:44 PM »
[To MartyS (Gromit) and Darth Geek's short reponses, directly under Wurwolf's last post.]
Actually I think it is saying that most - not all, most - men see women as potential sexual partners.

In large part that may be true.  But not just because women have been taught to be subservient, but because men have been taught to be conquerors in this society (if anyone doubts that, look at what the males at the top in Wall Street and business have done to the world's economy: they have 'conquered' to the detriment of everyone else; sexual conquering shows up in most every media type, even to the point where sexual abuse of male children by adult females ended up as comedies [esp in the 80s], and was passed off as the underage male 'scoring' and something to be proud of when it is every bit as much predation as if the sexes were reversed).

Both roles are very limiting on the ability of people simply being 'human'.  Both sexes are trapped, in different ways, by this societal crap.  Men would be better served to be taught to treat people as people first and that cooperation is more likely to get everyone 'success', as much as women could benefit from being able to have co-existent relationships not based on sex and not feel that they are being 'sized up' every time they walk into a room.


I am quite happy that I was raised by parents who bucked the system in the way they raised me.  Two of my four closest friends are females, and we have talked over the years about virtually everything, often in more depth than is possible with my male friends (which is, itself, partly from the societal programming that trained them to not talk about 'deeper stuff' in their thoughts and feelings about what may be going on with them).

EDIT:
Quoting not working for me, but with MartyS's comment just above, "The types of men she seems to be describing would most likely beat the crap out of any guy that wanted to have that kind of discussion," (referring to the original quote's, "road crews, sailors and soldiers, bar room regulars"), I agree.  That fits in with the limitations of what societal crap has been pushed on males.  These men are generally not capable of the level of discussion that is desired because of how society has damaged themEverybody loses with these roles, just in different ways.

[Gee... can anyone tell I'm past my limits and this is the first thing I'm 'doing' since my evening crash? :P [In other words: I woke up already past my functional limits. >:(]]
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 06:22:29 PM by LucasM »
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Offline wurwolf

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7171 on: March 09, 2013, 06:17:31 PM »
Wow. Just completely missing the point.

It's not about blaming anyone or anything.

It's not about hanging out with the wrong sorts of people.

It's just about being put into a category and not being able to do anything about it. It's about being seen as a female and the baggage that comes with that and not being seen as a human being. It's not society's fault. It's not me seeing every man as a potential rapist. It's about having to be conscious of how you carry yourself and what you do or say. And honestly, it sucks a lot of the time.


Edited: Lucas gets it.
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Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7172 on: March 09, 2013, 06:43:34 PM »
It's just about being put into a category and not being able to do anything about it. It's about being seen as a female and the baggage that comes with that and not being seen as a human being. It's not society's fault. It's not me seeing every man as a potential rapist. It's about having to be conscious of how you carry yourself and what you do or say. And honestly, it sucks a lot of the time.

Well, that's different than the quote that talks about assault and battery.

I'll agree that most men will have thoughts about sex if any women shows an interest, but that happens if they don't show an interest, or are not even in the same room...

Outside of a crappy business environment are you sure you have to be conscious of how you carry yourself and what you say?  That seems like a "hanging out with the wrong group" issue.

The "being put into a category" thing pretty much applies to everyone, we all get shoved into them, by looks, mannerisms, personality traits, sex, perceived intelligence, etc...

I guess I'm not thinking clearly enough to explain myself well enough, going to eat pizza and have a few drinks.....


Offline Lembach

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7173 on: March 09, 2013, 08:51:21 PM »
It seems to me that we tend to see things as unfair that simply just "are".  For instance, I am attracted, generally, to women who are out of my league.  She is beautiful, intelligent, and everything I'm attracted to, but she isn't interested in me.  Is that unfair?  No.  It just is.

Fuck yes, it's unfair.

You are not attractive enough and therefore do not display the overt and easily identifiable genetic traits of strength (for protection against predators) and financial status (a modern day substitute for hunting prowess. Ie. provide sustenance for the offspring).
 
It's our fault for not overcoming primitive instincts.


Offline Tripe

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7174 on: March 09, 2013, 09:17:30 PM »
I particularly enjoy the Mozart lyrics about how much he enjoys the flatulence he gets from eating sausages.

So I went to one of the most enjoyable movie showings I think I've ever been to and I might have convinced the original Mike Teevee to check out the riff NPH did of the movie he's in; all in all a good night, only the presence of Julie Dawn Cole could have improved upon it really. :)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 09:27:34 PM by Tripe H. Redux »


Offline Lembach

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7175 on: March 09, 2013, 09:23:57 PM »
No, I get it.

I'm a guy. I'm not gay. I like girls. I like fucking. 

You know what I don't like? Cars. I don't give a shit about them. I'm vaguely interested in how they work, but absolutely not at all interested in working on them.  I have no interest in which car is faster than which other car, or which one has better handling.  I guess I care a little about how they look, but mostly so that it doesn't look obviously stupid (the cube-shaped things spring to mind--Nissans, I think?).

I also hate sports.  They're just colossally stupid, a huge waste of time. 

Don't really give a shit about most rock music. I went through a phase where I liked it, so there's a few bits that have nostalgia value for me, but other than that it does not interest me at all. Every year I realize that I don't listen to X number of my mp3s, so I just delete them and never miss them.

What do I like?
I like cooking. I quite like gardening.  I find design really interesting.   You know, "girly shit."


OMG this! Everything you just said except for the fucking gardening! I hate it! And the design. Replace that with video games. But yeah, everything else!


Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7176 on: March 09, 2013, 09:29:23 PM »
Quote
Being born a woman is an awful tragedy… Yes, my consuming desire to mingle with road crews, sailors and soldiers, bar room regulars - to be a part of a scene, anonymous, listening, recording - all is spoiled by the fact that I am a girl, a female always in danger of assault and battery. My consuming interest in men and their lives is often misconstrued as a desire to seduce them, or as an invitation to intimacy. Yet, God, I want to talk to everybody I can as deeply as I can. I want to be able to sleep in an open field, to travel west, to walk freely at night…

I like this.  I can relate to it because my fiance feels this way a lot.  She doesn't necessarily want to hang out with a bunch of sailors, but it's shitty that women constantly have to worry.  You don't have the freedom to go as many places as a man and not get hit on or fucked with.  I can ride the subway at 3am and not get told I have a cute ass, my fiance can't. 

The stigma of being rejected by an attractive woman and the fear of being harassed and abused because you aren't physically able to defend yourself are completely different things.  In both cases the men initiate the situation.


Offline Lembach

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7177 on: March 09, 2013, 09:31:07 PM »
I like cooking, so gardening is part of that for me, Lembach.  I was just getting at the idea that I don't fit the idea of the "typical male" at all, which is (as I understand it) basically a twelve-year-old mouth-breather.

I get that. And I agree. It's just that I was chained to a lawn mower most of my childhood. Like Conan to the wheel of pain. I hate plants, dirt, getting wet. I loathe that all crap. I grow herbs inside for the cooking, but that's all "just add water and forget" and toss it out.


Offline Lembach

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7178 on: March 09, 2013, 09:38:21 PM »
Come to think of it, most of what I am is anti-father. He liked sports, hunting, knew how and took pride in changing his own oil. Decorated Vietnam vet. Thought Star Trek was stupid. Goddamn it, if you weren't up before the goddamn crack of dawn doing something, the day was wasted. And no way was I going to sleep in and watch Godzillla movies! Fuck no. I was going to outside working on the lawn while he went golfing. Oh, and don't use the riding mower, wouldn't want to dent it! Use the fucking push mower for that 5 acres of former farmland! That'll man him up!

I think we made a breakthrough here today, fellows. Thanks! I'm going to go smash his fucking urn.


Offline Tripe

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7179 on: March 09, 2013, 09:46:23 PM »
I'm about 75% your father, though I suspect when you say he liked sports you mean as a spectator; that's far to passive for my tastes, I don't see the point of watching others. :)
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 09:50:59 PM by Tripe H. Redux »


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7180 on: March 09, 2013, 11:01:11 PM »
At my wife's school they were looking for a physics teacher last year. Two candidates were finalists, one was apparently a nerdy, somewhat insecure guy; the other loved sports.  Guess who got the job? Because he'd "be a better fit with the people who work here"?
...
I dunno, I think I'm drifting from wurwolf's point.

Was the nerdy guy labeled as "insecure" because of how he looked?  Which is I think what her point was?  Being dismissed because of how she was born.  I guess since the last person I worked with or really encountered that does that kind of labeling was over 20 years ago I forget it still goes on a lot in some businesses.



Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7181 on: March 09, 2013, 11:03:14 PM »
TIME CHANGE!


Offline LucasM

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7182 on: March 09, 2013, 11:15:28 PM »
After my lengthy post here (and another, not nearly as intense, one in the computer thread), I had to take time out away from this.  But I wanted to come back to try to share this/these points because MartyS made a very good point and I wanted to add to it.

[And, God, I hope this makes sense.  My thinking isn't terribly clear but I wanted to hopefully get this added here.]

It's just about being put into a category and not being able to do anything about it. It's about being seen as a female and the baggage that comes with that and not being seen as a human being. It's not society's fault. It's not me seeing every man as a potential rapist. It's about having to be conscious of how you carry yourself and what you do or say. And honestly, it sucks a lot of the time.

Well, that's different than the quote that talks about assault and battery.

From her tone and phrasing in her later posts in this thread, I am nearly certain that Wurwolf was attending to other parts of the quote, and did not mean to highlight the parts of the quote that talks about assault and battery.  But yes, to many of us, the focus of the possibly-Plath quote seemed to be on being assaulted and physically/sexually taken advantage of or being fearful for one's safety.  [Just to be clear, I do not think that any woman who is concerned about rape has an unfounded concern: approximately one in every four women will be sexually assaulted in her lifetime in this country.  That's a horrifically high number.]

But I think in quotes like that, the focus of those males who are not of the ultra-macho type is inordinately drawn to such descriptions and attends to them, often to the exclusion of perceiving anything else in such quotes.  [My first thought when reading it was, "Wurwolf is concerned about being sexually assaulted all the time?" but I remembered other things she has said in the past (e.g. in regards to the cartoon of a fanboy grilling a girl wearing a Green Lantern shirt, but not a guy wearing the same shirt), and that concern on my part for her was altered (and I hoped, 'corrected') by what she'd written there.]

The thing is, it is those males who have access to their emotions - who are, in this sick culture, 'feminine' in that regard - who care about and are disturbed by the perception of "men-as-rapists".  The macho one's don't seem to care or are oblivious to it.  But for those males who are sensitive, we have had to defend ourselves as not being part of 'them': the 'them' who hits on everything without a 'Y' chromosome and doesn't understand the word "no".  That defense armor can often shoot up the instant 'male=abuser' is even remotely implied.  And it can be so intense that other things being said can be missed.  Partly that can be a result of how intensely one has been attacked for that in the past (which can often be simply by being sympathetic to someone who has been abused; it being understandable that feelings toward men in general would be negative until the trauma was worked through, but they are often still misdirected at someone who is sympathetic and trying to help and understand).


Outside of a crappy business environment are you sure you have to be conscious of how you carry yourself and what you say?  That seems like a "hanging out with the wrong group" issue.

The "being put into a category" thing pretty much applies to everyone, we all get shoved into them, by looks, mannerisms, personality traits, sex, perceived intelligence, etc...

I think much of the issues can also be linked to where one lives.  It is (at least in theory) more likely to find males who are capable of being just friends - whether they are attracted to a woman or not - in areas with overall higher social awareness (e.g. the NE U.S. coast and the W U.S. coast, cities around large Universities, rarely in the Bible Belt).  [Random thought I wanted to cram in here somewhere but can't find a smooth place to put it: When I saw it (back in '89) 'When Harry Met Sally' was, for most of the film, I thought a wonderful example that potentially people might learn from, that it is possible for males and females to be very, very good friends and nothing sexual or 'relationshippy' come of it.  And then they fucked it up with the ending.]

It is difficult to find people who truly understand that males and females can be close friends without a sexual component, and not have shit like jealousy get in the way.  I was blessed that one of my closest friends, a woman I've known since freshman year of high school, had a husband who trusted her completely with me, and that my ex trusted me completely with my female friends.  The two of us could spend time alone together and the right people understood that it would not lead to sex.  That is often not the case, and makes it difficult to "hang out with the right group" in so very many people's lives [Im notes a wife's female friend whom he likes, though he dislikes the husband; with that husband the macho person he is, I suspect it would likely be very difficult to associate just with her without her husband symbolically pounding his chest like a silverback].  I believe that may have been a part of what Wurwolf was getting at: that it can be very difficult to find situations that are truly gender neutral, in which people can simply associate with who they please and talk with whom they please without any inter-sexual subtext being assumed by anyone.

[Again: I hope this said what I intended.  I can't even think clearly enough right now to edit it.]
Ahhh... going way the fuck past my limits and frying my brain to write something that will shortly disappear into the aether... just like old times.
Hopefully at least someone didn't feel they'd wasted their time reading what I wrote.
« Last Edit: March 09, 2013, 11:43:45 PM by LucasM »
To dispel some of the misconceptions about head injuries you have developed from watching movies and TV, I wrote this: ...Some Information on Head Injury Effects


Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7183 on: March 10, 2013, 12:02:33 AM »
You made some good points Lucas.  Started to get a little long but it made sense.  I like how you ended it.  It's very hard to have a situation where there is no sexual subtext.  Even if there isn't a sexual subtext, someone is going to assume there is.  If it's not one of the two people talking, then it's me judging the male from across the room for so obviously hitting on that girl, and then getting mad when she starts to fall for it.

But get some rest if you can.  I'm going to try and do the same.  My sleep schedule is all messed up.


Offline wurwolf

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Re: Completely Random Thoughts
« Reply #7184 on: March 10, 2013, 07:25:32 AM »
Quote
Being born a woman is an awful tragedy… Yes, my consuming desire to mingle with road crews, sailors and soldiers, bar room regulars - to be a part of a scene, anonymous, listening, recording - all is spoiled by the fact that I am a girl, a female always in danger of assault and battery. My consuming interest in men and their lives is often misconstrued as a desire to seduce them, or as an invitation to intimacy. Yet, God, I want to talk to everybody I can as deeply as I can. I want to be able to sleep in an open field, to travel west, to walk freely at night…

I like this.  I can relate to it because my fiance feels this way a lot.  She doesn't necessarily want to hang out with a bunch of sailors, but it's shitty that women constantly have to worry.  You don't have the freedom to go as many places as a man and not get hit on or fucked with.  I can ride the subway at 3am and not get told I have a cute ass, my fiance can't. 

The stigma of being rejected by an attractive woman and the fear of being harassed and abused because you aren't physically able to defend yourself are completely different things.  In both cases the men initiate the situation.

Of all the things said, I like this one the most.

I like exploring new places and meeting new people. I like observing people -- watching them laugh and tell jokes, seeing them work, hearing them talk. Human beings are kind of fascinating to me if they don't get too close (meaning, I don't want to be besties, let's just shoot the shit for a while).

I'm not saying every man sees women as potential sexual partners. I've got a few guy friends with whom I can genuinely be myself without having to worry about sex. Imrahil and I had a conversation several months ago about men's genitalia and how it's all set up, and I detected no sort of "haw haw she wants me!" attitude on his part. I talk to Tripe about any number of things, and DB and I have had a lot of heart to hearts. There's a guy I work with who is like that, too. I guess the problem is, I never know where this whole viewing me as a female and not as a human being thing is going to crop up.

And at the crux of it, it's not even about sexual availability. Some guys know I'm married and not interested in sex with them but they still can't seem to get over the fact that they're talking to a female. I see the same sort of thing sometimes when white people talk to APGIL. One time in the grocery store a woman asked him something, and you could tell just by the animated way she was talking and how loudly and slowly and distinctly she was speaking that she was quite proud of herself for talking to an Asian man. It's putting someone in a box based on your perceptions, and not allowing them the freedom to be a human being.

Anyway, cripes, I've clogged up this thread long enough. It was just a quote to which I could relate, and I've said all I want to say about it.
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