FU-DCEU!

[stethacantus]

You want to know why the MCU worked? After years of allowing the Hollywood studios to ruin their best characters, Marvel decided to produce their own films. These are not plotted out by some studio execs looking at spread sheets, or allowing the toy company releasing the action figures to have more creative control over the script than the director. This was comic book people adapting Marvel's best stories to the screen for the comic book fans. Which is a lesson Warner Bros. never learned. I could go on about how the studio pretends the Green Lantern film was supposed to be in the DCEU, but now we are going to pretend it isn't because it got bad reviews, three super villain films released before the Flash or Cyborg got their solo films, and one of those supervillain films not matching the cannon, the Krypton television series that doesn't match the cannon, two versions of Justice League that are both supposed to be cannon, and the story the DCEU was supposed to build up to, The Infinity Crisis, was already adapted by the television DC universe, formerly called The Arrowverse.  Lets look at the latest mess. They had Ben Affleck s the DCEU Batman. Only, they decided to fire him prior to the Batman solo film. So now they have a new Batman.....only today they announced they had rehired Affleck to play Batmen in the solo Flash movie?? So I guess, much like Joker, the solo Batman movie is no longer cannon to the DCEU? Before the pandemic the MCU was popping out 2-3 movies a year, not to mention a bunch of television series that are sort of cannon. The DCEU averages only one film a year with a cannon that keeps changing at the whims of studio heads.

I GIVE UP! Without a coherent cannon, what is the point of even having a cinematic universe?

[goflyblind]

i hear that dc does well with their tv teen-angest universe and their animated universe. maybe they should stick to those?

[RoninFox]

The problem with DC as a cinematic universe is very few of the characters were designed to work together at all.

Much of the core of Marvel was designed specifically to exist in the same world by a smaller group of creators, and new elements have been added gradually with the foundation firmly in place.

A lot of DC was cobbled together from ideas that were designed completely separately and frankly don't fit together and have wildly different tones and rules. When you mash them together into something like the Justice League, it becomes a balancing act. Do we go more into realism, are there mutant powers, how do we factor in magic? These are issues that can exist to a degree in Marvel, but the answers were already mostly set in place for decades. Is it impossible to make them work? Of course not, look at the DCAU at its height for examples of it done well. It is more difficult though.

I think the current strategy of DC (throw a bunch of stuff at the wall and see what works) won't work for a cohesive universe, but who cares? Do we need another studio trying to be Marvel when we already have Marvel? I like the idea that we can have a kid-friendly and fun Shazam and a dark and bloody new Suicide Squad without having to worry about how the puzzle fits. I like the fact that we can move on from mistakes of past movies without having to yell "damn retcons" all the time. I'm not too interested in Jared Leto's version of the Joker, and I don't care about exploring where his character goes next or came from, so please give me a new Joker. Then give me another one, because the character is ripe for experimentation.

This doesn't mean we can't do crossovers either, I just don't think we need the long lead up that the MCU does. Does anyone watching the Justice League today really not know the backstories of the biggest members? There are countless existing versions of these stories I don't need to see Krypton blow up again to know that a new Superman came from there. I don't need to see the Wayne's gunned down again to get what drives Batman. I understand Aquaman talks to fish.

[Russoguru]

The tone of the DCEU was all wrong. In Man of Steel its tone was way too dark, way too bleak and too ambitious for its own good. Batman Vs Superman was just more of the same and even worse somehow. Wonder Woman worked, because it got the character right and the story was good. Justice League was... at least a movie but it ultimately did not work, mostly because it had a lot of the same problems Batman Vs Superman had. I think JL's biggest weakness is the heroes just lack the same kind of depth and emotional attachment we as an audience grew for Captain America, Iron Man, Black Widow, Ant-man, Star Lord, Gamora, Groot, Drax, Black Panther, Hawkeye, and so on.

I think a big part of the problem is Zack Snyder. The guy is just... he's only like a notch or two above somebody like Michael Bay. Like Michael Bay, he doesn't understand why fans love the characters in the DC universe. When he's not blowing shit up or doing product placement, he sometimes gets way too artsy fartsy, and as a result what he thinks is wonderful cinematography is a lot of pretentious bullshit.

Now obviously, the likes of Shazam and Joker were much better, but those AFAIK have nothing to do with the DCEU. Birds of prey was really good btw.

I've generally speaking been put off DC movies for a long time mostly because of all the assholes online shit-talking Brie Larson and Captain Marvel.

[Darth Geek]

Now obviously, the likes of Shazam and Joker were much better, but those AFAIK have nothing to do with the DCEU.

Shazam is part of the DCEU, but Joker is not.

I agree with you about Snyder, he is completely the wrong person to bring to actual heroic superheros. He worked well for deconstructing them in Watchmen when cynicism and being dark is the point. But for a positive role model like Superman it just doesn't work.

And the worst DCEU movies make the mistake (among others), trying to adapt major plotlines from the comics that are popular without understanding that the reason they are so significant is the years and years of buildup that made them so meaningful. That is a problem with the studio not understanding their properties, not necessarily the filmmakers themselves since the studio would have control over those kinds of decisions.

[The Lurker]

Granted it probably doesn't help that he's still scheduled to direct an adaptation of The Fountainhead.

[Darth Geek]

Granted it probably doesn't help that he's still scheduled to direct an adaptation of The Fountainhead.

Is that still on?! After the disaster that was the Atlas Shrugged movies?  Where they had to hilariously crowd fund the last one.

[kunedog]

This doesn't mean we can't do crossovers either, I just don't think we need the long lead up that the MCU does. Does anyone watching the Justice League today really not know the backstories of the biggest members? There are countless existing versions of these stories I don't need to see Krypton blow up again to know that a new Superman came from there. I don't need to see the Wayne's gunned down again to get what drives Batman. I understand Aquaman talks to fish.

I agree we mostly don't need the origin stories, but DG is right that we need the buildup.  The first (and the majority) of the DCEU films should have been standalone solo movies, like in the MCU.  In his very first outing, why is the new Batman already facing off against Superman?  In the Justice League movie, why do we have to introduce half the league?

The studio is probably still to blame, but the DCEU's biggest problem was prematurely grabbing for Infinity-War-sized box office takes with zero patience to lay the groundwork to earn it.