Author Topic: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)  (Read 17077 times)

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Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #330 on: January 10, 2018, 10:15:49 AM »
If High School Spanish doesn't fail me, that would be Leche Azul!


Offline Russoguru

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #331 on: January 10, 2018, 10:29:57 AM »
And in that ONE scene in Monty Python and the Holy Grail I'm pretty sure "Fechez de vache!" means "Get the cow", and then they fire a cow from a catapult at our heroes and voila... one of the funniest scenes in the history of the movies. What does this have to do with the Last Jedi? I DON'T KNOW! Maybe the Resistance could have catapulted cows from Achc-to at the First Order or something, I dunno.


Offline Imrahil

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #332 on: January 10, 2018, 07:26:10 PM »
Wasn't the milk green? It didn't look blue to me.

Also, speaking of colors: I don't get snoke's room. Are those walls? Why is it just a red background? Does he live in a cinerama? A planetarium? The Emperor's throne room had walls and a window and you could see where you were and it made sense. Did I miss something?


Offline blspro

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #333 on: January 10, 2018, 08:33:04 PM »
I'm absolutely positive that Obi-Wan was there to face Vader, knowing the outcome.

On the basis of what evidence in the words and actions depicted in the film do you make this claim?

Or is this you just snidely trying to equate confidence in an arbitrary assertion with confidence in a logically presented argument (which is open to dispute BY rational argumentation) - ie you trying to equate illogic with logic?  Given your previous post on the topic, this latter conclusion would appear to be the case, which simply demonstrates your problem is NOT with 'confidence' but with logic itself.
« Last Edit: January 10, 2018, 08:54:42 PM by blspro »


Offline blspro

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #334 on: January 10, 2018, 08:38:43 PM »
Wasn't the milk green? It didn't look blue to me.

Also, speaking of colors: I don't get snoke's room. Are those walls? Why is it just a red background? Does he live in a cinerama? A planetarium? The Emperor's throne room had walls and a window and you could see where you were and it made sense. Did I miss something?

The milk was green in TLJ (it was blue in ANH and Rogue One).

As to the throne room, it appeared to be a sort of clear dome (on the top of his ship?) which was covered with the material (which ended up burning up).  Presumably the material could be raised and lowered like a window shade depending upon mood and occasion (this is speculation though).

Basically it was a call back to the old style 'flash gordon' type 'throne rooms' that one saw in the serials (from which Star Wars is famously derived)


Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #335 on: January 10, 2018, 10:04:18 PM »
I'm absolutely positive that Obi-Wan was there to face Vader, knowing the outcome.

On the basis of what evidence in the words and actions depicted in the film do you make this claim?

Or is this you just snidely trying to equate confidence in an arbitrary assertion with confidence in a logically presented argument (which is open to dispute BY rational argumentation) - ie you trying to equate illogic with logic?  Given your previous post on the topic, this latter conclusion would appear to be the case, which simply demonstrates your problem is NOT with 'confidence' but with logic itself.


His parting words when he left Luke. "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine. The Force will be with you... always!" Even for a Jedi, that's awfully dramatic talk for, "I should be the one to shut down the tractor beam. You stay here." Then he fights Vader specifically until he knows Luke is watching. He was stalling him until it was time to make his sacrifice.


Offline blspro

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #336 on: January 11, 2018, 05:24:27 AM »
His parting words when he left Luke. "Your destiny lies along a different path than mine. The Force will be with you... always!" Even for a Jedi, that's awfully dramatic talk for, "I should be the one to shut down the tractor beam. You stay here."

And the words right BEFORE that were:  "Stay and watch over the droids.  They must be delivered safely or other star systems will suffer the same fate as Alderaan."

Put simply, they are on a military base.  Ben is about to go do something VERY dangerous and may likely get caught or killed. He is telling Luke NOT to go with him - that they have to split up - for the good of the mission.  If they put all their eggs in one explosive basket, game over.  Thus his statement is the plan: if Ben doesn't make it back, Luke will have to get the droids to the rebels on his own.  Ben is expendable.  And he may not see Luke again.  So he is saying goodbye, just in case.  Thus it is APPROPRIATELY "dramatic talk" - when one includes the entire context, as opposed to portraying the situation as merely a leisurely stroll from which there is no question that Ben WILL return. 

So AGAIN, Ben makes clear the plan - and takes no action which contradicts that plan.  Whether or not he returns, Luke must get the droids out.  That is the clearly stated plan.

And that is the OPPOSITE of what Luke did in TLJ.  As already noted, Luke tells them NO plan whatsoever - not even a "Flee you fools".  Because the writer wants the audience to think the plan is for Luke to defend the Rebels from the First Order, he has Luke intentionally NOT communicate his plan.  He doesn't tell them he is a Force Hologram.  He doesn't tell them this is a stall.  He doesn't tell them they are wrong, that there is a way out.  He tells them NOTHING.  As I stated, he leaves the Rebels as surprised as the audience.

Ben did quite the opposite.  And, contrary to Rian - who claims (ex: for Snoke) that such information cannot be communicated without grinding the story to a halt and making a speech which serves no purpose for the story - Lucas had him do so with heart, drama, conflict, character development, plot identification, and thematic purpose - not to mention he did it VERY succinctly.

THAT is the difference between Rian's TLJ and Lucas' ANH:  the latter is GOOD writing.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 06:28:04 AM by blspro »


Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #337 on: January 11, 2018, 07:13:12 AM »
But does he tell Luke there's a Sith Lord on-board and that's probably something he's going to have to deal with because they know each other from this one time where he hacked off his arms and legs? Shutting off the tractor beam is easy-peasy for a Jedi. The only real threat to him on the Death Star was Vader, and he knew it. He gave them one story to make sure Luke didn't try to stop him, and then went to shut down the beam (So the others could escape) and showdown with Vader. The AUDIENCE believed he was going on a dangerous mission, and that's why the dramatic goodbye. So did Han and Luke. He told the truth from a certain point of view.

Also, his death did a lot more to distract Luke than it did to keep the empire off of them.
« Last Edit: January 11, 2018, 07:24:13 AM by Pak-Man »


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #338 on: January 11, 2018, 08:00:11 PM »
Someone posted this on another forum, wish I had thought of it:



Offline Russoguru

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #339 on: January 11, 2018, 08:28:08 PM »
It may take some time but some of the hatred for The Last Jedi will die down and in time most fans will really come to like it.


Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #340 on: January 11, 2018, 09:59:46 PM »
Just wait 'til Episodes 10-12.


Offline blspro

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #341 on: January 12, 2018, 05:59:16 AM »
But does he tell Luke there's a Sith Lord on-board and that's probably something he's going to have to deal with because they know each other from this one time where he hacked off his arms and legs?

Indeed he does not. Ben tells him NO details whatsoever.  He doesn't tell Luke how he is going to get anywhere on this small, man-made moon without being detected.  How he will evade cameras.  How he will avoid droids.  How he will get past entire battalions of soldiers etc etc.  Calling THAT "easy-peasy" is simply disingenuous.  It is the claim Jedis simply can't be caught.  And we know that is false - from Ben's own history.  Again, don't drop context.

Put simply, Ben does not identify every danger he could run into.  He identifies NO particular dangers whatsoever.  For the purposes of the conversation, there is no need for such details ("never tell me the odds" - heh).  Ben simply identifies what they BOTH *do* know: he is going into grave danger - and thus he might not come back (ie he could be captured or killed).  Therefore Ben emphasizes that if he doesn't come back, the PLAN is for Luke to escape with the droids.  The droids are the mission.  Ben is expendable.

That said, I do appreciate how you shifted from "absolutely positive" to "probably" now.  ;)

AND, in THAT context, if your point is you believe Ben thought facing Vader was something that MIGHT happen (and which Ben would avoid if possible) - as opposed to being something not only unavoidable but, rather, something Ben was actually SEEKING to do ('what he was there to do') - then we do not disagree.  :)

Quote
The AUDIENCE believed he was going on a dangerous mission

Indeed.  Because Ben WAS "going on a dangerous mission".  A single Jedi infiltrating an entire moon sized military base, swarming with troops, droids, etc?  The odds of success are against him.  BOTH Luke AND the audience know this.  But more than that, the AUDIENCE knows something Luke doesn't know - they've seen Darth Vader, someone Old Ben told Luke he knew, 'sense's something he's not felt since -' and then storm off suddenly.  In other words, they are aware that Vader may know about Ben being there (something which is almost immediately confirmed).  So the AUDIENCE is aware that the "dangerous mission" may be MORE dangerous than even the characters are supposedly aware (certainly Luke).

That is GOOD writing - writing which creates tension for the audience by creating a gap between the knowledge they HAVE and knowledge the characters do NOT have, thus making the audience MORE afraid for the characters (due to the characters' ignorance of facts).

THANK YOU for giving me all these opportunities to identify the GOOD writing in ANH which - as was my point - is absent in TLJ  :)

Quote
that's why the dramatic goodbye.

I'm glad you've come around to the fact that going to "shut down the tractor beam" IS a "dangerous mission" for a Jedi AND that it was thus APPROPRIATELY dramatic talk for a Jedi rather than, as you dismissively characterized it "that's awfully dramatic talk for, "I should be the one to shut down the tractor beam. You stay here."

Quote
his death did a lot more to distract Luke than it did to keep the empire off of them.

You realize that is an argument for MY point, right?  That Ben WAS trying to escape back to the Falcon, rather than he "was there to face Vader"  He wasn't SEEKING a confrontation.  Ben was trying to avoid it if possible.  But he got caught right before he reached the ship - which is why Luke saw him.

--

To sum: you don't dispute Ben identified a plan for Luke: 'Escape with the droids, without me if necessary'.  And you don't dispute THAT plan was carried out by Luke and the rest.  So (regardless of your quibbles) my POINT remains undisputed - that is the OPPOSITE of what Luke did in TLJ.  He identified NO plan for ANYONE to carry out. 

Thanks :)

« Last Edit: January 12, 2018, 07:56:16 AM by blspro »


Offline Russoguru

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #342 on: January 12, 2018, 11:10:02 AM »
Just wait 'til Episodes 10-12.
How do you mean?


Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #343 on: January 12, 2018, 12:06:37 PM »
That's when everyone goes, "Episodes 10-12 suck! But 7-9 were actually great!"


Offline Edward J Grug III

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Re: Star Wars VIII: The Last Jedi (2017) (spoilers free to be seen)
« Reply #344 on: January 12, 2018, 03:40:57 PM »
Man, how many weeks can one guy cry for?
FINE