[[[This triple-bracketed paragraph written just after hitting "Post" because MartyS's response, and anais's response to that were written while I was writing this. I agree with MartyS (and what I wrote below I think says the same thing in different words or from a slightly different 'direction'). I also agree with anais: this is nuanced and we need to discuss it. I also agree that the Cracked article (that was supposed to be FUNNY?!!) was a male being raped. The easiest way to look at ANY of these things is to ask yourself: "would I feel
exactly the same way if the genders were reversed?"]]]
[Hopefully how I've written my thoughts in this are 'intact' and makes sense/convey what I mean. After the intense focus for last night's writing I've ended up with a day's worth of needing extra seizure meds. But with my particular perspective, I thought it was important to add my thoughts. (Hopefully that doesn't sound egotistical, I've just had specific relevant training in sexual trauma and its treatment is all I mean by that.)
[I also apologize to VoC, most of this reads as if you are not here, reading this. I can tell in editing this that this is far more disconnected and analytic/clinical than my post yesterday. My apologies, but it has taken what focus I have left today to respond to anais in this detail. I also apologize if I've unknowingly co-opted thoughts that someone else (including you) wrote as I wrote here.]
As a woman, what I say may or may not matter as much, but here goes:
Honestly I am very glad that a woman joined this discussion. Because, in this particular instance, Variety of Cells could have dismissed some of what I said because of the natural distrust resulting from someone coming out of the disturbed roles of this society. He may have dismissed part of what I said based on the distortions of responsibility that he has been becoming aware of, the distortions that are present in most male-male communication and bonding in this society. So your words mean (and meant) a LOT here! I know VoC thanked you, but thank you from me also.
Lucas is 100% correct. You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.
Everything else that happened is based on our sick culture of society as Lucas said.
Actually I hadn't even thought of what you described: VoC saying no repeatedly while the young woman was drunk and coming on to him itself being sexual assault by her toward him. It seems that MY awareness and biases in this area still need some work, too, as that passed right by me! As you point out, that is a violation of VoC, just as the reverse would be for a male-toward-female encounter of the same type. That he wanted a relationship with her for years colored my response. But you are very right: regardless of whether he would have wanted such interactions if she had been sober, it was date-rape on her part for that aspect while she was drunk and he said no.
When writing, I was thinking more on the "who was sober" aspect when thinking about the events, because, as MartyS described, the sober person in any such interaction is the responsible one for 'gatekeeping' one's own level of participation based on both party's consent. When I was referring to VoC's trauma, I was referring to being put into the role by society (of male's 'getting some' and the distortions learned in society on the effects of alcohol which changed his behavior), as well as him then being blamed for what society - and she - had said she wanted (confusing attacks for behaving how she appeared to want him to behave), which led to the specifics of the painful and threatening fall-out afterwards with her and those in the building and people who had been his friends as well.
That society 'trained' him to act in a certain way and believe certain things, as well as the consequences for doing what he'd been trained for, were what I was referring to. To be attacked afterwards and lose friends for doing what someone said they wanted is traumatic (when 'under the influence' of society's distortion of alcohol being only a 'disinhibiter', that is how it would have felt at the time). Had he continued to fight her off and she touched his crotch repeatedly (since not mentioned in VoC's write up of the event, I am presuming this did not happen), then I would have included the entire interaction itself as traumatic.
But the absolute BEST thing about you, which Brock hasn't done, my ex-boyfriend (he didn't sexually assault me, but that is a small digression), and so many other men never do is that you told us. You told us the truth including what you did that you regret. That is the best way to heal.
Very, very true. Admission of one's responsibility for actions taken is the first step in detoxifying them.
I am the type of person who equates sexual violence with some sort of proof that a woman is highly beautiful and desired. I get jealous when I read about other, prettier, more successful women who have been assaulted. My therapist and I are going to spend a LOT of time figuring out what exactly happened in my life to make my brain think that way. Is it victim shaming or victim blaming to say I'm jealous of women who are assaulted? Many others will think so, but it's my truth, and lying about it is not going to help me in any way.
That believing that being sexually victimized is a sign of desirability is not unusual in people who have been sexually abused. Though I have heard nothing of the origin of such beliefs, it may originate in some cases with abusers who told their child victims or implied to them that they, "can't help themselves," in their abusing the child, because of how "attractive" the child is. One of the most painful things I learned about (while studying abuse and its treatment so I could help my clients), were instances when a mother was informed by her daughter that she had been sexually abused by the mother's boyfriend The mother got angry at the daughter, as if the daughter was 'the other woman' and was trying to 'take her man away'. Obviously from that, the untreated or unhealed sexual abuse of the mother (the most likely cause of such damaged thinking) results in causing even further damage to a next generation of victims than the abuse alone would have.
What you experienced is very powerful and very important. Owning it, living with it, and growing from it is taking responsibility, which, again, the Brock Turners and Benjamin Kellers of the world don't do.
Score one for the good guys!
Love, Anais
Agree.
PS: You have no control over her, so deciding to engage with her because you think it would help her is probably dangerous. If she reacts negatively, how will that make you feel when you thought you were helping her. Talk to and engage with her because it will help you, the only person in this world you are in control of. You can hope it helps her, but please don't think that you are some white knight and talking about this will save her. A) she is an adult and doesn't need a white knight and B) if she rebukes you, that might make you feel like an asshole again.
Very true. VoC: talking to her would have to be about your experience and awareness for your own sake, not for what it might do for her. But do not discount the value of your own possible need to do so! And, although she might be likely to have a new layer of processing and healing from her experience with you letting her know of your newer awareness, as anais says, she may have negative reactions too. It is much like what is taught to those who confront their abusers, just what anais said: it has to be for your healing, as you cannot control their response, and you would need to be prepared for anything from the best case scenario to the worst. While I think the chances are good for her having a positive response (given that she has remained in contact with you since the event), it still could not be guaranteed.
Another aspect of this, that leads me to believe that she likely blames herself (a question posed by someone in a post early today), is her consumption of so much alcohol. She very likely has thought it is all her fault for insisting on drinking the bottle of wine by herself, after specifically inviting you over, and then sexually 'attacking' you. She, too, may have operated under the misinformation that alcohol is merely a disinhibiter, leaving her feeling it is 'all her'.
You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.
It falls on the sober person to recognize the intoxicated person is not behaving rationally. If the sober person continues to say no and the drunk person forces themself onto the sober person then it is the intoxicated person at fault. But saying no and then deciding to say yes while the other person is still intoxicated is still the fault of the sober person.
Cultural bias does make it harder for a man to refuse, guys are never supposed to say no, and while a woman could kick the crap out of a guy while saying no it would not be seen the same way if a guy did the same while saying no.
So, she can blame the fact that she was drunk? That seems like a slippery slope. Do all women just get a pass? Should it always be the man's responsibility? That seems like a slippery slope too. But I'm sure I'm just victim blaming again (sarcasm).
I actually have a specific therapist for boundaries and consent. I will discuss it on Thursday.
She can't blame the fact that she was drunk for assaulting VoC. That is 100% on her. But, prior to the final outcome, VoC could have pried himself away from her and left without injuring her - because men are physically stronger than women in general. And him having that responsibility is not because men need to be the responsible parties all the time, but because he was the one who was SOBER, that put him in the 'gatekeeper' position for how much he would participate in the events of the night. The fact is that he 'gave in' and participated since it was someone who he had wanted to be with for a long time. So the responsibility is split: her for initiating romantic/sexual contact while drunk and not taking his repeated 'no's as his response, and him for using society's distortions (e.g. alcohol=disinhibiter) as a personal rationalization at the time for ultimately joining in.
That leaves a mess, ultimately. Neither was 100% responsible for the entire event, nor was either 100% victim. But both participated in part, and both were victims in this event.
What each does with that is up to them. VoC has already said what he plans to do, with teaching his children about responsibility and consent. That is a very proactive way of dealing with it, by preventing future instances where such difficult and painful experiences could occur. A good outcome, to help improve the future of this sick society.
Topic: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues) (Read 57190 times)