2

Author Topic: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)  (Read 51318 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline Russoguru

  • Bilbo Baggins Balladeer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4371
  • Liked: 756
  • Define lunch or be disintegrated!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #420 on: October 15, 2017, 07:34:23 PM »
Holy shit, that's a lot to take in. Variety, I admit I don't know you all that well, but from what you're describing here, I don't think you're a bad person. you made a terrible mistake, one you very much regretted and as a result you felt deep pain and sorrow, not just for what you did, but also for her. Most importantly though, in your words I see a person who resolved to never, ever repeat that mistake ever again. That's what's most important. The world is filled with people who do horrible things over and over and don't feel half an ounce of regret. I think under the circumstances you tried to behave like a gentleman but in the end your moral barriers were kind of broken down by a lot of key factors. All I can say is... just try to move on. I know that's not the most therapeutic advice, but it's the best I can give you. I'm certainly not a woman so I can't speak for the other side of the issue, but I don't think any of us would hold this incident over your head. If your words are any indication, you are a changed man for the better, and that's what really counts. Try to take that to heart when you sleep tonight. I know a lot of what I'm saying is kind of re-hashing what you said, so I'm sorry for that.

I just think it's important for me to reinforce you're now a person who has truly good values and I deeply admire and respect that.
« Last Edit: October 15, 2017, 09:04:18 PM by Russoguru »


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

  • Disembaudio's Squadio
  • *
  • Posts: 12153
  • Liked: 2852
  • Weirdies!
    • My homepage
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #421 on: October 15, 2017, 10:16:31 PM »
 I'm not sure about the part where you think telling her you were sorry for the right reasons would not make her feel better. 

 You might be correct that it wouldn't, but maybe it would?  I just don't think it should be dismissed, but don't know who would be able to give good advice as to telling her or not.  One thing I can think of is taking responsibility for the non-consensual touching might relieve lingering self blame she might still have.  In the time you spent with her before drifting apart did she ever blame herself?


Offline LucasM

  • Ephialtes
  • *****
  • Posts: 7690
  • Liked: 4854
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #422 on: October 15, 2017, 10:47:17 PM »
I was writing this while MartyS was posting.  I agree 100% with what he wrote.  From my experience as a therapist, I can say that avoiding a difficult conversation because it may 'dredge something up' often prevents a new, deeper level of healing from a trauma by both parties involved.  I also agree with Russoguru, your empathy, and your insights into your behavior demonstrate that you are a caring person.

Now to what I spent the last hour or so writing.


Variety of Cells, you've brought up a great deal.  I can read the pain in your description of what happened.  You are clearly suffering from those events.  I am sorry that is the case for you, just as I am sorry if she is still suffering from them.

Hopefully anyone reading this will know some things about me.  The first I hope they keep in mind is that, with my head injuries, when past my limits I may not always express myself completely or clearly (and I have been so messed up of late that most days out of the last couple months I have slept between 10-14 hours because I have been so mentally exhausted).  So please, if something I've written here is unclear, or sounds odd, please ASK before jumping on me, OK?  Thank you.  The second is that, when I was a therapist, while I did neuropsychological testing, and studied the brain both functionally and biochemically with the intent after my PhD becoming a certified Neuropsychologist, when I did therapy while working on my dissertation, I worked almost exclusively with abuse and neglect survivors (learning way more than most of my colleagues knew in that area).  So I know something about traumas.


Now I would like to start to reframe your experience, particularly your current one, regarding this past event:

Both you, and the young woman involved, were traumatized by the sick culture you grew up in, the culture which led to that experience.  Clearly from how disturbed you have been by it, you were traumatized by the experience.  In a different way from how she was, but you were traumatized nonetheless.

This country has been sexually sick for a LONG time.  It originates with sex being 'hidden' and avoided by parents, as if it is somehow different than teaching a child how to eat properly or how to brush their teeth to protect their health.  It then comes from things like you described: media feeding false information ('alcohol just reduces inhibitions' and up until recently 'no means maybe').  And then there is the 'sport' of sex for teenage and young adult males... that approach persists and is so massively ingrained in EVERYONE in this sick culture, that I dare say it would be incredibly difficult in this culture to find anyone who did not understand what, "I got to second base with her," meant.  Sex is not a 'game' (unless two consenting parties want to make it one for fun).  And then there is the 'conquest' that males are taught - in sport, in business, and in sex.  Some who are particularly sick carry the belief that this is OK through adulthood (e.g. the Sexual-Predator-in-Chief).

Again: this entire culture has been sexually sick for a LONG time.

Luckily for this culture, that attitude would have persisted if not largely for brave women who have stepped forward and begun to say, "this is very much NOT OK!"  There is, as enraging as it is in each instance, a benefit to the culture as a whole from things like white student athletes getting off with minimal sentences for raping a woman.  It is benefiting the culture because it has forced the problem into the mainstream where those who would normally choose to ignore and avoid it (and thereby perpetuate it) cannot avoid it any longer and now have to THINK and ACT on it, to whatever degree they are capable of.

You have said that you have learned from your experience, and will be a strong force for teaching your future children about consent.  That is great.  It is many people, like you, who are waking up to how sick this society has been, and how it has victimized both males and females, that will ultimately change it.  One child at a time.  But hundreds - thousands - of individuals waking up to this awareness, means hundreds or thousands more children at a time will be learning that all human beings have the right to respect and self-determination in their actions and with what happens with them.

But that still leaves that, what you experienced was - for YOU - a traumatic experience.  You were traumatized by the culture and what it did in helping shape your behavior.  Your description of your feelings are basically a definition of a trauma response.  [I cannot go through the symptoms of PTSD with you, but you certainly fit some of those as well as a 'less diagnosis-based' definition of trauma response.]

I dare say you (and others) may possibly indignantly ask, "you're saying that his experience was as bad as hers?"  Well, one can't 'compare traumas' any more than one can 'compare injuries' from an auto accident.  e.g. Who is 'worse off': a person who is paraplegic following an accident, or one with a significant change to their brain functioning from a head injury from an accident?  It depends on how each affects the individual.  There is no way to compare traumatic experiences, whether they are physical or psychological.

Guilt over actions of the past is a sign of someone who actually cares enough to look deeply at their history and learn from it.  But maintaining that guilt is likely to cause additional problems going forward.  So please think about what I have written and see if it at least partially fits for you.

My best to you, and I hope that you can continue to heal from this trauma.


If you are interested, the best overall book I've seen on trauma is this one: Aphrodite Matsakis I Can't Get Over It.  It may help to read it.
To dispel some of the misconceptions about head injuries you have developed from watching movies and TV, I wrote this: ...Some Information on Head Injury Effects


Online Variety of Cells

  • Dragon Ryder
  • ***
  • Posts: 6225
  • Liked: 1643
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #423 on: October 16, 2017, 02:32:12 AM »
Thank you all for your responses. And thank you Lucas. I always appreciate it when I see a long post from you because I know how much it drains you.

I appreciate all your affirmations. I know I’m not a bad person. I do not have a lack of self esteem. I just feel that I forgave myself too quickly, to the point where I didn’t properly learn from what happened.

Society is definitely changing, and in this case it’s for the better. All of these sexual abuse cases being thrust into public view is a good thing. And I hope it has made others, like myself, reflect on their past.

To what Lucas had to say, I definitely experienced trauma. It is one of the only, if not the only traumatic thing to have happened in my life. And I’m probably experiencing some sort of ptsd. If this lasts too long I know I can seek professions help. But airing this here has helped. Putting down my thoughts physically and hearing responses has helped, instead of keeping them swimming in my head.

Is it all of your opinion that reaching out to her would be a good thing?  I know it would help me. But thinking that it would do anything for her feels too optimistic. I honestly don’t know if she ever blamed herself. She might have now that I think about it. When I reconnected with her she did say she was young, made a mistake and didn’t want to talk about it. Maybe that was her blaming herself, and in that light freeing her from blame could maybe do some good.

But I still don’t know. I’ll have to think about it more.


Offline anais.butterfly

  • The FBI Pays Me to Surf
  • *
  • Posts: 2800
  • Liked: 1382
  • Monkey Brains!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #424 on: October 16, 2017, 08:53:52 AM »
As a woman, what I say may or may not matter as much, but here goes:


Lucas is 100% correct. You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.

Everything else that happened is based on our sick culture of society as Lucas said.

But the absolute BEST thing about you, which Brock hasn't done, my ex-boyfriend (he didn't sexually assault me, but that is a small digression), and so many other men never do is that you told us. You told us the truth including what you did that you regret. That is the best way to heal.

I am the type of person who equates sexual violence with some sort of proof that a woman is highly beautiful and desired. I get jealous when I read about other, prettier, more successful women who have been assaulted. My therapist and I are going to spend a LOT of time figuring out what exactly happened in my life to make my brain think that way. Is it victim shaming or victim blaming to say I'm jealous of women who are assaulted? Many others will think so, but it's my truth, and lying about it is not going to help me in any way.

What you experienced is very powerful and very important. Owning it, living with it, and growing from it is taking responsibility, which, again, the Brock Turners and Benjamin Kellers of the world don't do.

Score one for the good guys!

Love,

Anais


PS: You have no control over her, so deciding to engage with her because you think it would help her is probably dangerous. If she reacts negatively, how will that make you feel when you thought you were helping her. Talk to and engage with her because it will help you, the only person in this world you are in control of. You can hope it helps her, but please don't think that you are some white knight and talking about this will save her. A) she is an adult and doesn't need a white knight and B) if she rebukes you, that might make you feel like an asshole again.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 08:59:04 AM by anais.butterfly »
Anais is the Coolest Butterfly I know  ;D


Online Variety of Cells

  • Dragon Ryder
  • ***
  • Posts: 6225
  • Liked: 1643
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #425 on: October 16, 2017, 10:26:04 AM »
Thanks anais. I am glad to hear a female opinion on the subject. As you said, I think it is important to be honest about what we have done and how we think, and work from there to either try and change it or accept it. But it’s hard sometimes. I know I was very careful to use the word rapist only once, because it’s still hard for me to say.  But it is the most direct legal definition of what happened.

It’s also hard for me to take your point about responsibility. I understand it, and legally I feel you may be right. But I was sober and responsible. I should have known better, and like I said, my kids will know better.

But I agree with you about contacting her. If she were to take it the wrong way, it would ruin the purpose of contacting her.  It might not be helpful for her at all. I think it’s best if I leave it as it is.

I hope you find out why your brain thinks that way about assault victims. It makes a certain sort of sense. But Thankfully there are no facts to support it.


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

  • Disembaudio's Squadio
  • *
  • Posts: 12153
  • Liked: 2852
  • Weirdies!
    • My homepage
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #426 on: October 16, 2017, 10:30:51 AM »
You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.


It falls on the sober person to recognize the intoxicated person is not behaving rationally.   If the sober person continues to say no and the drunk person forces themself onto the sober person then it is the intoxicated person at fault.  But saying no and then deciding to say yes while the other person is still intoxicated is still the fault of the sober person.

Cultural bias does make it harder for a man to refuse, guys are never supposed to say no, and while a woman could kick the crap out of a guy while saying no it would not be seen the same way if a guy did the same while saying no.








Offline anais.butterfly

  • The FBI Pays Me to Surf
  • *
  • Posts: 2800
  • Liked: 1382
  • Monkey Brains!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #427 on: October 16, 2017, 03:52:21 PM »
You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.


It falls on the sober person to recognize the intoxicated person is not behaving rationally.   If the sober person continues to say no and the drunk person forces themself onto the sober person then it is the intoxicated person at fault.  But saying no and then deciding to say yes while the other person is still intoxicated is still the fault of the sober person.

Cultural bias does make it harder for a man to refuse, guys are never supposed to say no, and while a woman could kick the crap out of a guy while saying no it would not be seen the same way if a guy did the same while saying no.

So, she can blame the fact that she was drunk? That seems like a slippery slope. Do all women just get a pass? Should it always be the man's responsibility? That seems like a slippery slope too. But I'm sure I'm just victim blaming again (sarcasm).

I actually have a specific therapist for boundaries and consent. I will discuss it on Thursday.
« Last Edit: October 16, 2017, 03:58:47 PM by anais.butterfly »
Anais is the Coolest Butterfly I know  ;D


Offline RVR II

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 54980
  • Liked: 4271
  • There can be Only 1...
    • RVR II's YouTube Channel
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #428 on: October 16, 2017, 03:57:38 PM »
I hate slippery slopes altogether myself :P


Offline anais.butterfly

  • The FBI Pays Me to Surf
  • *
  • Posts: 2800
  • Liked: 1382
  • Monkey Brains!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #429 on: October 16, 2017, 03:59:15 PM »
I hate slippery slopes altogether myself :P


What if you are sliding down them?
Anais is the Coolest Butterfly I know  ;D


Offline Pak-Man

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 17662
  • Liked: 3564
  • Insert $0.25 to Play!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #430 on: October 16, 2017, 04:02:07 PM »
Slippery slopes lead to broken limbs, and broken limbs lead to crowded hospitals, then that leads to widespread disease, and pretty soon you have an entire zombie apocalypse to deal with!


Offline anais.butterfly

  • The FBI Pays Me to Surf
  • *
  • Posts: 2800
  • Liked: 1382
  • Monkey Brains!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #431 on: October 16, 2017, 04:12:27 PM »
Slippery slopes lead to broken limbs, and broken limbs lead to crowded hospitals, then that leads to widespread disease, and pretty soon you have an entire zombie apocalypse to deal with!

President Pak Proposes to Outlaw All Waterslides! News at 10.
Anais is the Coolest Butterfly I know  ;D


Offline RVR II

  • Global Moderator
  • *****
  • Posts: 54980
  • Liked: 4271
  • There can be Only 1...
    • RVR II's YouTube Channel
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #432 on: October 16, 2017, 04:16:10 PM »
I hate slippery slopes altogether myself :P


What if you are sliding down them?
Well..



Offline MartyS (Gromit)

  • Disembaudio's Squadio
  • *
  • Posts: 12153
  • Liked: 2852
  • Weirdies!
    • My homepage
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #433 on: October 16, 2017, 06:57:39 PM »
You realize that she continually violated your boundaries while she was drunk. If you say No, SHE should have stopped and her blaming it on the fact that she was drunk is no worse than Brock Turner blaming his thing on drinking.


It falls on the sober person to recognize the intoxicated person is not behaving rationally.   If the sober person continues to say no and the drunk person forces themself onto the sober person then it is the intoxicated person at fault.  But saying no and then deciding to say yes while the other person is still intoxicated is still the fault of the sober person.

Cultural bias does make it harder for a man to refuse, guys are never supposed to say no, and while a woman could kick the crap out of a guy while saying no it would not be seen the same way if a guy did the same while saying no.

So, she can blame the fact that she was drunk? That seems like a slippery slope. Do all women just get a pass? Should it always be the man's responsibility? That seems like a slippery slope too. But I'm sure I'm just victim blaming again (sarcasm).

It seems like you are equating space or boundary violations with physical violations, and read the situation as my second sentence where the drunk person forces themselves on the sober person?  Asking for sex is not the same as jumping on them and tearing their cloths off.  A drunk woman jumping on a guy and tearing his cloths off doesn't get a pass, no.

I specifically wrote that first paragraph gender neutral.  The second was just to talk about cultural double standards.  Culturally a woman asking for sex is looked at very differently than a man doing the same.  Think about a sober woman and a drunk guy that she had a crush on in the past, if she says yes it's the same situation, there is no consent, but would she be seen as violating the guy?  Pretty much all of those situations the guy would blame himself for getting drunk and sleeping with someone he wouldn't have normally.

As for victim blaming, it's another aspect of the sick culture LucasM was talking about, guys can't be expected to keep saying no, so a woman should never get drunk and talk about sex, if they do it's their fault because guys just can't control themselves.  Guys try to score, women play defense, do anything that weakens that defense and blame is placed there.

I've rewritten this 4 times, not sure it's quite right but as close as I can get.


Offline anais.butterfly

  • The FBI Pays Me to Surf
  • *
  • Posts: 2800
  • Liked: 1382
  • Monkey Brains!
Re: General Psychology Thread (for non-emergency and long-term issues)
« Reply #434 on: October 16, 2017, 07:32:10 PM »
Thanks for being logical at least.


This stuff is very nuanced, but I believe we need to discuss it. I read a Cracked article once where a man and woman (not a couple) were both drunk, and the woman starting giving him a BJ. He had a GF and he said No, but she kept going and his body did what male bodies do. He called it rape, I call that rape, and if the man was sober and the woman in this situation was drunk then I would feel the same. I have never been in a situation where I kept going after the man said no, probably because I feel to stupid no matter how drunk or high I am. Well, that is not true, I might have done something to my ex while blackout drunk, but he would LOVE to shame me about something like that, so I doubt it actually happened. He was a man who said no to me a lot, he used sex to control me. The man in the cracked article was dumped by his girlfriend because she didn't believe him. Shit like this is why I have just given up on relationships for now. I don't need anyone that I don't pay for (therapists & support groups).


Anais is the Coolest Butterfly I know  ;D