Author Topic: Penn and Teller: BS!  (Read 31346 times)

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Offline ChrisHanel

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #105 on: March 24, 2007, 10:17:50 AM »
Instructions for Instant Penn & Teller Thread:

1. Light fuse.

2. Run away.

Remember guys, we're on a board about making fun of movies.


Offline gbeenie

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #106 on: March 24, 2007, 10:28:01 AM »
No worries, Chris. This IS my sick idea of fun.
"All I ask of you is one thing: please don't be cynical. I hate cynicism -- it's my least favorite quality and it doesn't lead anywhere.
Nobody in life gets exactly what they thought they were going to get. But if you work really hard and you're kind, amazing things will happen."

- Conan O'Brien


Offline ChrisHanel

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #107 on: March 24, 2007, 11:17:42 AM »
That's strange. I suddenly feel the need to run away faster.


Offline pyro

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #108 on: March 24, 2007, 11:41:19 AM »
and on the topic of P&T.... I thought the episode was pretty good but they had virtually no rebuttle from the otherside, I only remember them even talking to anyone from the other side in the very beginning


but I really liked This American Life, only just now finally listening to one of the podcasts I've accumulated over the past month or so since the show was so good


Offline Reductio_ad_absurdum

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #109 on: March 24, 2007, 06:19:45 PM »
I am not bitter, but I am angry.  To wish to change the world, one must be angry at it to attempt to change it.

I was being ascerbic with my responses because I understand that what I say will change nothing, and I'm tired of it.  To clarify something, I am not in any way or form have dislike for Scott H, Bathtub, or Masterchief.  I disliked their stale (to me) arguements that I have heard over and over.  I did not wish this and so became patronizing.  That is what I apologize for; I should have bowed out with honor instead of that smart ass attitude.

I will however, not debate the issue of ancient Israel's problems at this time.  I just do not have the time.

EDIT:  On the Persecution Complex... well I am an eccentric Christian.

Oh yes, on the Penn and Teller ep that goaded me to this... I shall find it and post once a few replies happen.

Ok, no one is saying anything so as not to double post:

[yt=425,350]8RV46fsmx6E[/yt]

First things first, so if we don't get a moral code from the Bible... where do we get it?  Oh yeah, there is relativism, which is impractical on a large scale in that it would be prone to rapid abuse (a whole lot more than people abuse the biblical moral code), commits injustice to victims, and would be a beaurecratic nightmare for all the possibilities that have to be logged and then changed.  Penn and Teller, your comments make as much sense if you use the same criteria against the Constitution in that since Thomas Jefferson and the other founders were slave owners that article is unusable as a code of law since that is now against the law.  What happened to taking articles of written work at face value?  Does the Ten Commandments themselves say anything that is not advantageous to law and order?

The Bible preaches prejudice, cruelty, superstition, and murder?   These guys really do bullshit.  They don't even try to be objective.  You complain on cherry picking and forget to mention its teaching of charity to the poor, pursuit of wisdom, and not sleeping with your neighbors wife.  Again, throw out the constitution cause it has inconsistencies as well.

On Genesis and Exodus:  these were written by an ancient people with ancient thinking.  It is stupid to take it literally, but it is not justifiable to toss out what is advantageous thought because you are holding dead historical man to live modern man's standards.  It is an apple and orange arguement.  On Moses... do we have any other evidence of Israelite life during this time?  If that is a no, then why are you refuting the ONLY evidence?  Mythology is used as evidence to ancient people.

There being multiple Messiah's:  The Jewish people were under the yoke of Rome, and yet it is strange that revolutionaries claiming themselves to be something important?  It should be taken even stranger that for all these, Christ was the one that lasted 2,000 years.  He was executed like all the others, and yet people still followed him while the others were forgotten?  They were looking for a person that was going to overthrow Rome.  Christ didn't do that.  He should have been forgotten but wasn't.  There has to be an explanation.  I doubt Saul would have become Paul for Apollonius.

Penn and Teller, why is something some horribly mistaken last for 10,000 years?  Why have better alternatives not killed it a long time ago?  Judeo-Christian thought is very contrary to man's desires.  Atheism hasn't killed it as well... there has to be more to its longevity than ignorant peasants.

To Gbeenie, it goes both ways.  Is there a difference between someone saying the God I serve is a Sadistic power-monger and that a person is going to Hell for being a homosexual?  No, there isn't.  Both are wrong and offensive for arguementation.
« Last Edit: March 24, 2007, 07:52:47 PM by Reductio_ad_absurdum »


Offline ScottotD

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #110 on: March 24, 2007, 10:39:39 PM »
yawn.

Can we possibly vote for the Round table's first banning?
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Offline Sharktopus

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #111 on: March 25, 2007, 12:19:13 AM »
Let me put it this way:

One of the elements that virtually all the Western monotheistic religions share is the idea that EVERYTHING is created by God. Right?

So, it follows that of the myriad things God created, one of them must be Comic Timing. Follow so far?

Therefore, the fact that a christian living anywhere in the United States of America can actually utter, with a straight face, the phrase, "...trying to shove their values down our throats", and NOT spontaneously combust ON THE SPOT is further evidence, to me at least, against the existence of God.

Or, at least, a God with ANY sense of Comic Timing.     :D

Beautiful. Very Douglas Adams. A nice addendum to "It's hard to be religious when you consider that certain people are never incinerated by a bolt of lightning," which, if I recall correctly, is Douglas Adams.


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #112 on: March 25, 2007, 01:05:25 AM »
First things first, so if we don't get a moral code from the Bible... where do we get it? 

Anyone who asks that and means it scares the living daylights out of me. If you need to go to some book - any book at all -  to know how to treat other people, you have serious issues and should probably be monitored.

The answer to your question is empathy. Most of us are born with it.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #113 on: March 25, 2007, 01:10:13 AM »
sigh, since this conversation has been degraded to near troglodyte levels i really dont want to get involved but i feel compeeled to enter for some reason.

Quote
The answer to your question is empathy. Most of us are born with it.

why?  what value does empathy hold in a universe without an objective morality?


Offline ScottotD

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #114 on: March 25, 2007, 01:14:55 AM »
Why do you need a book of rules to tell you how to treat people? surely it's wiser to make your own choices based on your view on the world.
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Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #115 on: March 25, 2007, 01:21:28 AM »
why?  what value does empathy hold in a universe without an objective morality?

You're arguing metaphysically in response to a pragmatic real-world concept and you're complaining about the level of discourse?

It is simply the reason people don't go about screwing each other over and killing willy-nilly all the damned time. Any imposed moral code seems generally to be far less effective than that built-in attitude corrector.

Again, anyone who needs to be told not to hurt people all the time is a sociopath.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #116 on: March 25, 2007, 01:51:11 AM »
Quote
You're arguing metaphysically in response to a pragmatic real-world concept and you're complaining about the level of discourse?

since when is ethics not a real world pragmatic thing?  metaphysics is whole different branch of the philosophy tree. 

So i ask again, what value does it ACTUALLY hold in a world without an objective morality, because if morality is in fact totally subjective then empathy holds little or no value on a personal social darwinistic world that seems to be implied we live in. 


Offline ScottotD

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #117 on: March 25, 2007, 02:16:34 AM »
Surely people who live a 'good' life based on the fact they think they will be rewarded at the end of it are actually less moral than people who live their lives based on their own ideas of right and wrong.
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Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #118 on: March 25, 2007, 02:18:12 AM »
only if morality isnt subjective.  If its merely subjective then neither one of them would be. 


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #119 on: March 25, 2007, 02:22:11 AM »
metaphysics is whole different branch of the philosophy tree. 

Not when you ask a question that can only be answered within the presupposition of a metaphysical answer, i.e. that there is a moral absolute standard as set by a divinity.

It's like the question "What is the meaning of life?". It may be grammatically sound, but it's nonsense unless you presuppose that life is supposed to have some sort of meaning, which would then have to come from some sort of metaphysical being or state.

So i ask again, what value does it ACTUALLY hold in a world without an objective morality, because if morality is in fact totally subjective then empathy holds little or no value on a personal social darwinistic world that seems to be implied we live in. 

It holds no "value" above and beyond the fact that it obviously works. As to what its evolutional uses might be, they're probably manifold, from helping in reason by allowing identification outside your own self, to generally bonding in family units and holding societal and group structures together.

Again, there's no need for a book or divinity to tell you what to do, and why that leads to a "personal social darwinistic world" - whatever scary unpleasantnesses that's supposed to imply - I do not know. I see absolutely no proven correlation between an imposed moral code and being a cool, generous and kind person.

Most of the main precepts of morality such the Golden rule and variations thereof are present in most societies. That would indicate that it's just something peple do, whether they're threatened with eternal damnation or not.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson