Author Topic: Penn and Teller: BS!  (Read 32157 times)

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Offline RandyMistie

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #195 on: April 02, 2007, 07:35:38 PM »
Target and Wal-Mart aren't quite the same thing. For example, Wal-Mart has a broader selection, while every surface in Target isn't coated in grime.

I certainly like Target better, for that reason...
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Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #196 on: April 02, 2007, 08:39:28 PM »
Except that monopolies don't happen in a true free-market economy;
Cites? Anyone with huge economic leverage can easily use it to stop upstarts from gaining traction. It's basic game theory.

The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #197 on: April 02, 2007, 09:55:27 PM »
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The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.

same thing happened early industrial revolution, it takes time for balance to be restored in my opinion


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #198 on: April 03, 2007, 12:48:08 AM »
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The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.

same thing happened early industrial revolution, it takes time for balance to be restored in my opinion

And how many generations would you say it would require?

The only way the balance was eventually restored in pretty much every single Western nation was by rather aggressive anti-monopoly laws, workers rights statutes and social welfare systems. The Invisible Hand has yet to prove to be in practice benificial to anyone but the upper echelons of society. You would think that Randian Objectivists would create (or take over) a nation somewhere that operated on such principles. Because if it really is such a superior notion and being incredibly simple to set up, what with requiring only minimal overseeing or policing, it should turn into a prosperous and free nation over a very short period of time. Yet no one has come close, and the times when such situations have arisen, it seems to work not in the favor of the common good at all.

The fallacy is thinking that a corporate entity is somehow inherently moral when it is not. A company - as a construct - has one goal; profit maximization. Any other considerations have to be enforced from within by the heads of the corporation, and to expect all CEOs to be angelic is to be more naive than even the youngest of children. Just as there is need for a police force to reign in the criminal elements of the populace, so you need regulations on the behavior of corporations and enforcement of such. It's a complex and difficult thing to set up, maintain and balance. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline RandyMistie

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #199 on: April 03, 2007, 01:00:22 AM »
Yes, Teaflax, that's true.  If government regulation hadn't interceded, (because of public outcry), the Carnegies' and the Rockerfeller's would still be using children as slave labor and letting the poor and indigent die in the streets of New York.  There is no inherent obligation of any corporate entity to treat humans as humans as long as it saves them money.

I include myself in that indictment.  I've done things I am certainly not proud of in my business simply because it made me more money.
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Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #200 on: April 03, 2007, 01:02:04 AM »
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The only way the balance was eventually restored in pretty much every single Western nation was by rather aggressive anti-monopoly laws, workers rights statutes and social welfare systems

i have no problem in thinking those are natural responses to everything that happened in the industrial revolution.  I also have no problem in thinking they are the good things that help create balance that i vaguely and poorly referred to.  


Tea have you read the iron heel by London?  I am reading it right now and its fascinating.  It deals mostly with socialism vs industrial revolution capitolism.  Its a weird and fascinating read.  

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  If government regulation hadn't interceded, (because of public outcry), the Carnegies' and the Rockerfeller's would still be using children as slave labor and letting the poor and indigent die in the streets of New York.

all stuff covered in the iron heel. 


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #201 on: April 03, 2007, 01:31:43 AM »
Wait...

Let me see if I got this right? We're actually agreed that some balance is required and that the free market left to its own devices will not bring about Utopia? Wow. Will wonders never cease?

(Thanks for the book tip, Sarc. I will actually see if I can find it, because it does sound interesting)
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Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #202 on: April 03, 2007, 02:15:16 AM »
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Let me see if I got this right? We're actually agreed that some balance is required and that the free market left to its own devices will not bring about Utopia? Wow. Will wonders never cease?

yeah tell me about it.  I just think that absolute free capitolism as any true absolute (used in a pragmatist real world sense) is silly.  The gov sanctions/legislation against the monopolies was the NATURAL balance that comes out of it. 

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(Thanks for the book tip, Sarc. I will actually see if I can find it, because it does sound interesting)

the book is crazy pro socialism (which is weird to me after reading the sea wolf) and state control everything (which is weird because i had a silly unfounded veiw that london was pro democracy)


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #203 on: April 03, 2007, 03:21:27 AM »
The gov sanctions/legislation against the monopolies was the NATURAL balance that comes out of it. 

Except that free market capitalist philosophies like Objectivism and Libertarianism wouldn't agree with that. The only role of government in their view is some minor police work and maintaining an army. End of story; no infrastructure creation or maintenance, absolutely no regulation of the flow of capital and no taxes.

the book is crazy pro socialism (which is weird to me after reading the sea wolf) and state control everything (which is weird because i had a silly unfounded veiw that london was pro democracy)

Socialism isn't by its nature anti-democratic, though. Communism is, however, since it has totalitarianism built in. Very different things.
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #204 on: April 03, 2007, 03:46:19 AM »
this is a 190? or 18?? view of socialism and is very much state controlled everything, thats the view of utopia put forth by the main charectar. 

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Except that free market capitalist philosophies like Objectivism and Libertarianism wouldn't agree with that. The only role of government in their view is some minor police work and maintaining an army. End of story; no infrastructure creation or maintenance, absolutely no regulation of the flow of capital and no taxes.
very true but thats why i said this:
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I just think that absolute free capitolism as any true absolute (used in a pragmatist real world sense) is silly.


Offline Teaflax

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #205 on: April 03, 2007, 04:24:29 AM »
Damn it. You're scaring me, Sarc. We're actually on the same page.  ;D
Fear destroys. - Jon Anderson


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #206 on: April 03, 2007, 04:30:28 AM »
well thats how i roll.  you cant box me into any one sterotpye.  Im a man of paradox and damn it i like it that way :)


Offline RVR II

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #207 on: October 10, 2007, 07:09:29 AM »

This IS A Very Funny & Informative Show on 'ShowTime' :clap: :clap:
I've got seasons 1-4 on DVD, and Hope they Do More! :D :D


Offline Tripe

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #208 on: October 10, 2007, 07:53:13 AM »
I only ever saw one full episode. It was the one on circumcision. I need to get it on DVD if we have a boy to remind my wife why it's a barbaric thing to do.


Offline GregMcduck

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Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
« Reply #209 on: October 10, 2007, 09:43:06 AM »

This IS A Very Funny & Informative Show on 'ShowTime'

Hmm, that's an interesting way to put it. It's like going:



This IS A Part Of A 'Balanced Breakfast'