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Author Topic: Dr. Who anyone?  (Read 254148 times)

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Offline Russoguru

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2610 on: December 25, 2017, 07:28:34 PM »
Wow. That was good. Especially loved the regeneration, but
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Offline stethacantus

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2611 on: December 25, 2017, 10:04:35 PM »
Wow. That was good. Especially loved the regeneration, but
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Offline Jesse412

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2612 on: December 26, 2017, 12:53:45 PM »
"Twice Upon a Time"

I thought this was a pretty good send off
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  I'm excited to see Jodie Whittaker's take on the character but am reserved about Chris Chibnall as showrunner given his output on DW and Torchwood was a bit all over the place.  I'm hoping for more like "The Hungry Earth" & "Cold Blood" and less "Cyberwoman".
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Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2613 on: December 26, 2017, 11:15:47 PM »
I enjoyed it but felt it was missing something.  When you see "written by Moffet" it feels odd to watch a simple straightforward story... 

A regeneration wrecking the TARDIS again, that is getting old.  Just a cheap stunt to explain why the control room changes all the time, they used to find interesting ways to put a new doctor in peril at the start and no one cared why the control room was a new set.


Offline LucasM

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2614 on: December 27, 2017, 01:14:30 AM »
I enjoyed it but felt it was missing something.  When you see "written by Moffet" it feels odd to watch a simple straightforward story... 

A regeneration wrecking the TARDIS again, that is getting old.  Just a cheap stunt to explain why the control room changes all the time, they used to find interesting ways to put a new doctor in peril at the start and no one cared why the control room was a new set.

I agree.  I think there should have been a VERY simple explanation for the TARDIS control room changing with each regeneration: just as the camouflage filter is designed to change the exterior to match the surroundings, the TARDIS personality adapts the control room to reflect the new personality characteristics of the 'new' Doctor (or anyone else who would have operated the same one through regenerations).

I did enjoy the final episode.  I thought a straightforward 'non-bad-guy' mystery ending was a very nice send-off to an era of the doctor (the Davies/Moffat years).  I liked The Doctor's statements to his next self.  And, LOVED The Doctor's response when discovering she was female again.


Going a bit far afield of comments on this episode, though related:
The final word in the previous paragraph is because there have been indications from his statements in the last year at least, that The Doctor was female at least once (if not more than once) when young... which begs the question: if that was the case, with there only being 10 regenerations (11 different faces) how was it possible that Smith was supposedly the 11th "final" regenerated Doctor if he'd been a female at some point in his childhood/'teens'?  For that matter, with Wm. Hurt's Doctor, and with Tennant's Doctor forcing a regeneration into himself, Technically, Matt Smith was already the 13th KNOWN/seen Doctor version.  With more changes when he was young (pre-TV show), he had already GROSSLY exceeded the number of regenerations that supposedly are the cannon maximum for every Time Lord.  [Even before he was granted additional at the end of The Time of the Doctor.]  So: what the hell?  [I can almost set aside The War Doctor, as it was chemically/'magically' done, not 'natural', but Tennant regenerating into Tennant WAS a regeneration - they said so very clearly on the show.  And, if he was a female when he was younger, that would have been at least two additional (changing to female, then to back to male, as the show suggests he was born male).


EDIT: I didn't change anything, but do recognize that my brain glitched on the canon number of regenerations (saying 10 instead of 12), despite knowing better.  Oops.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 05:42:58 PM by LucasM »
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Offline stethacantus

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2615 on: December 27, 2017, 05:45:10 PM »
There was no regeneration before Hartnell. The guest Doctor in the last episode was, as he said, the first and original. Hartnell was #1, Troughton was #2, Pertwee #3, Baker ( tom ) #4, Davin #5, Baker ( Collin ) #6, McCoy #7,  McGann #8, Hurt ( War Doctor ) #9, Eccleston #10, Tennant #11 and #12, Smith #13,  Jayston ( Valeyard ) #14....   

The reason Time Lords only regenerate 12 times is due to some sort of fail safe imposed by the Time Lords on each member which prevents them from regenerating after that number. In the final Matt Smith episode Clara begs the Time Lords to remove the fail safe so The Doctor can continue saving the universe, and her argument persuades them. Because the failsafe was removed, The Valeyard never comes into existence, and instead #14 Capaldi, Whittaker #15. ( Generally, since Hurt's Doctor was introduced out of sequence, and no one counts Tennant's regeneration back into his same body,  Eccleston is counted as the 9th Doctor, Smith is counted as the 11th Doctor, Capaldi as the 12th Whittaker is counted as the 13th. )
« Last Edit: December 27, 2017, 05:55:56 PM by stethacantus »


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2616 on: December 27, 2017, 05:54:58 PM »
During McCoy's run they were trying pretty hard to insinuate the doctor was not a normal time lord, so who knows...

there have been indications from his statements in the last year at least, that The Doctor was female at least once (if not more than once) when young..

When did he say stuff like that?  I don't remember any comments like that.


Offline Johnny Unusual

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2617 on: December 27, 2017, 06:06:41 PM »
I haven't heard anything about that... BUT it actually might make sense.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/x9eEk-S6RUc" target="_blank" class="new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/x9eEk-S6RUc</a>

Back when they changed the actress for Romana, she just up and regenerated for the heck of it so they could have the same character and a different actress.  They could retroactively explain that young Time Lords can regenerate whenever they feel like it without burning off a life.  Or Romana burned off an entirely life because she was bored.  Which I'd buy.


Offline LucasM

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2618 on: December 28, 2017, 01:04:23 AM »
There was no regeneration before Hartnell. The guest Doctor in the last episode was, as he said, the first and original. Hartnell was #1, Troughton was #2, Pertwee #3, Baker ( tom ) #4, Davin #5, Baker ( Collin ) #6, McCoy #7,  McGann #8, Hurt ( War Doctor ) #9, Eccleston #10, Tennant #11 and #12, Smith #13,  Jayston ( Valeyard ) #14....   

The reason Time Lords only regenerate 12 times is due to some sort of fail safe imposed by the Time Lords on each member which prevents them from regenerating after that number. In the final Matt Smith episode Clara begs the Time Lords to remove the fail safe so The Doctor can continue saving the universe, and her argument persuades them. Because the failsafe was removed, The Valeyard never comes into existence, and instead #14 Capaldi, Whittaker #15. ( Generally, since Hurt's Doctor was introduced out of sequence, and no one counts Tennant's regeneration back into his same body,  Eccleston is counted as the 9th Doctor, Smith is counted as the 11th Doctor, Capaldi as the 12th Whittaker is counted as the 13th. )

Yes, in the just-aired special, Bradley-as-Hartnell said he was "the first and original 'Doctor'".  That, in itself, does not mean that he did not regenerate before that point.  It means that that particular visage, referred to as The Doctor, was the first... i.e. that he was the original to have called himself 'The Doctor' - not necessarily that he was the first body and personality of the alien that started CALLING himself 'The Doctor' at some point in his life.  It is a very fine distinction, but one which (coupled with what I and MartyS and JohnnyU write below), makes sense.

During McCoy's run they were trying pretty hard to insinuate the doctor was not a normal time lord, so who knows...

there have been indications from his statements in the last year at least, that The Doctor was female at least once (if not more than once) when young..

When did he say stuff like that?  I don't remember any comments like that.

He said it while sitting on a bench sometime in the 10th season (which I just re-binge-watched after buying it during Black Friday sales so between the binge-watching and the 100 or more hours of other stuff I've seen since then, I don't recall the exact episode as I was not paying attention to when that particular conversation came in the season [it was in the last 1/3 I am pretty sure, possibly in one of the last two episodes]).  The Doctor did so while discussing Missy with Bill.  He said that he <was in love?> with his friend (Master/Missy) starting when he was quite young.  He then said, "I do not recall if I was female at that time."*  Knowing that Whittaker was just about to take over the role, that stuck out even more for me during this viewing than it did when it originally aired.

If indeed Hartnell was the first 'original' Doctor, and ALL the Doctors that have ever existed have been those we have seen, then there is no way he could NOT remember that he had never been a female.  All the incarnations we have ever seen have been male.  That could not be a confusing point to him: it would simply be an impossibility to 'not know' his gender when young and first 'in love' with Master/Missy if he had never been anything BUT male in his lifetime.


*  In case this may help recall: Bill then said, aghast, "you don't remember if you were a female then?!" and the Doctor responded with something like "it was a long time ago", but finishing with, "you humans are so hung up about <that/sex/gender>!"  [I'm sure that was a late-addition dig by Moffatt at the sexist fanboys complaining about Whittaker taking over the role.]  In thinking more about this, though I could be wrong, the flow of this makes it seem most likely to have happened in the last episode of series 10, during the lull while waiting for the Cybermen to attack.  Both because there was 'down time' where a relaxed reminiscence/conversation on a bench could take place, and because the Doctor talking about his possibly being 'in love' with The Master/Missy would make the most sense shortly before Moffatt killed him and her off [for now] to have the most emotional impact.


I haven't heard anything about that... BUT it actually might make sense.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Back when they changed the actress for Romana, she just up and regenerated for the heck of it so they could have the same character and a different actress.  They could retroactively explain that young Time Lords can regenerate whenever they feel like it without burning off a life.  Or Romana burned off an entirely life because she was bored.  Which I'd buy.

That "young Time Lords can regenerate whenever they feel like it without burning off a life" seems like a very reasonable explanation.  To further that, it also seems quite possible that the regeneration limit may be only for regenerations resulting from a 'death', or is only initiated upon reaching whatever age Time Lords consider their 'age of maturity', or only initiated when they graduate Time Lord Academy.  Each of those three seems to have things that may support it in what has been said in the show (since the 2005 reboot at least).

If it is related to only regenerations resulting from 'death', the safeguard could have been put in place to prevent a maniac from regenerating eternally (e.g. someone like The Master/Missy).  Both if that death was imposed from outside the culture (offending enough people off-world to cause him/her to be killed that many times).  Or possibly if the Time Lords themselves wished to put him/her to death, so they'd only have a limited number of times they'd have to kill him/her to prevent their corruptive influence (e.g. Rassilon) - otherwise they'd have to literally kill someone over and over forever.  [This is actually unlikely to be the case, as all they would have to do is 're-kill' before regeneration was complete to end a Time Lord forever: no '12 regenerations' limit necessary.]

If the regenerations are unlimited when young, it could be that Time Lords consider gender much like we consider changing clothes or hairstyles while in our teens (i.e. that the young are allowed to change as many times as they wish in order to figure out who they are going to be as adults).

If the regeneration count is only begun following graduating Time Lord Academy, it could be a way of keeping the already-most powerful of the Time Lords from becoming too powerful/immortal.  'Commoners' who were not granted the power of seeing into the Time Vortex would not be a threat, so would not need such limits.  But that last seems unlikely, as there does not seem to be anything to support that idea (though, granted, the Time Lords' culture has played only a tiny role since 2005, so I know far less about their planet and culture than others here would/do).

It would be nice if Stephen Moffat had clarified these seeming contradictions which he personally introduced into canon before he left, as they are unlikely to be addressed by anyone else.


EDIT was to add the "*" info (Bill/Doctor conversation).
« Last Edit: December 28, 2017, 02:16:36 AM by LucasM »
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Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2619 on: December 28, 2017, 08:24:56 AM »
Yes, I remember that conversation now.

Wow, Romana did burn up a lot of regenerations in that scene...

Trying to remember when they first brought up the limit of 12?  I thought the first time it was mentioned might have been when the Master took over Nyssa's father.  So that scene with Romana may have been before the writers came up with the limit?


Offline Johnny Unusual

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2620 on: December 28, 2017, 08:42:13 AM »
Yes, I remember that conversation now.

Wow, Romana did burn up a lot of regenerations in that scene...

Trying to remember when they first brought up the limit of 12?  I thought the first time it was mentioned might have been when the Master took over Nyssa's father.  So that scene with Romana may have been before the writers came up with the limit?

The first time I remember it was during the 6th Doctor era,  but that's been a long time and not an era I'd want to revisit.


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2621 on: December 28, 2017, 08:57:50 AM »
They do say the Master is on his last regeneration during The Keeper Of Traken, but I don't think they ever say a number.


Offline Henry88

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2622 on: December 28, 2017, 04:53:05 PM »
on the new doctor, i was indifferent then i am indifferent now.
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Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2623 on: December 28, 2017, 05:35:30 PM »
I read an article that pointed out a line of dialog that applies the the fans as well as companions:

When Bill says "hardest thing about the doctor is letting him go" it really is a line for fans of the show.

on the new doctor, i was indifferent then i am indifferent now.

I always feel that way about a new doctor.  I'm sure she will be fine, she's a good actress.  I'm more apprehensive about the new show runner...


Offline stethacantus

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Re: Dr. Who anyone?
« Reply #2624 on: December 28, 2017, 11:16:29 PM »
I would not call changing gender a regeneration. For example, Bruce Jenner became Caitlyn without regenerating. I am sure the technology on Gallifrey is so advanced that younger Gallifreyans can change whenever they want and back again whenever they want. Supposedly only the Time Lords have the ability to regenerate, not all Gallifreyans. So only after The Doctor became a Time Lord did he have the ability to regenerate.

I do not think what Romana did was regeneration, but more of an inside joke. Romana was originally actress Mary Tamm who supposedly wanted to leave the series. However, Tom Baker had fallen in love with actress Lalla Ward who played the non companion Princess Astra in one of the story arcs. Baker wanted Ward on the show permanently, and since the BBC didn't have the budget for an extra companion midseason, Tamm was out and Ward was in.  I don't recall Tamm being on set for the beginning of the regeneration, which suggests she was fired. If she knew she was leaving then there would have been a story where Romana gets injured and needs to regenerate, rather than just walking into a room after the fact and announcing she decided to regenerate.