Author Topic: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!  (Read 14812 times)

0 Members and 1 Guest are viewing this topic.

Offline TTYT

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1930
  • Liked: 5
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #30 on: April 25, 2010, 05:46:44 PM »
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit.  At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).

Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)

So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.

And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.

Special Edition, folks. Special Edition.


Offline RoninFox

  • Gryffindork
  • ******
  • Posts: 14248
  • Liked: 2608
    • Ronin Fox Trax
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #31 on: April 25, 2010, 05:50:39 PM »
Honestly, my biggest nitpick is that we assume them to live happily ever after, when we all know full well this Evil Corporation would return and nuke the whole planet clean from orbit.  At best, their happy victory would last about 10 years (one round trip).

Well, the corporation has to abide by a treaty forbidding WMD's in space ( http://james-camerons-avatar.wikia.com/wiki/Interplanetary_Commerce_Administration ), so not likely - but the Avatar Wiki does say Giovanni Ribisi 's signed on for the sequel - and Quaritch may be cloned (I'm putting the sequel info in a separate thread...)

So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.

And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.

Special Edition, folks. Special Edition.

You know, it would be very entertaining if all the additions (other than the sex scene we know is going in) consisted of people asking "hey, why don't we do this" and being answered with lame excuses.
RoninFoxTrax Presents Rocky

gum.co/RFTrocky


Offline Indomitus

  • Big Montana
  • *****
  • Posts: 720
  • Liked: 0
  • Hang on, gotta answer my iPOG
    • vox.neoleo.net  (a work in progress)
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #32 on: April 25, 2010, 05:52:05 PM »
How about when the shuttle/bomber went down?  At that point it was close enough to the tree that it was ready to drop its payload, and yet when it crashes, it misses everything completely.  Not even any shrapnel or debris landing near the tree.
I'm assuming the explosions took it off its course. That, and they were preparing the bombs for being dropped, so they would be ready to drop once the shuttle actually got over the tree.
No, the order had been given to "drop."  Or rather "Go go go drop drop drop!"  They were over the target, and flying out of control like that wouldn't have carried them far enough away to avoid collateral damage.  In fact, given that one actually has to drop a bit ahead of target since things don't fall perfectly straight down (damn you, physics) I think the shuttle should have landed ON the tree.


Offline Plastic Self-Cleaning Duck

  • Mr Bungle
  • *
  • Posts: 13883
  • Liked: 2
  • Duck!!!
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #33 on: April 25, 2010, 05:55:54 PM »
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.

He does that and the movie gets even longer...

And the theater can show one less showing a day.


Offline TTYT

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1930
  • Liked: 5
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #34 on: April 25, 2010, 06:02:05 PM »
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.

It's all in the original script, though: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron


Offline RoninFox

  • Gryffindork
  • ******
  • Posts: 14248
  • Liked: 2608
    • Ronin Fox Trax
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #35 on: April 25, 2010, 06:04:35 PM »
And that despite having thought of all these excuses, he didn't bother to include them in the movie at all.

It's all in the original script, though: http://www.docstoc.com/docs/14294813/Avatar-Scriptment-by--James-Cameron

I'll take your word for that.
RoninFoxTrax Presents Rocky

gum.co/RFTrocky


Offline Blaine

  • Schnappi Supporter
  • ***
  • Posts: 125
  • Liked: 8
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #36 on: April 25, 2010, 06:11:09 PM »
So basically it turns out that my biggest problem with the movie isn't the criticisms I have regarding the story, but that James Cameron has an excuse for every goddamn one of them.

With emphasis on "excuse" as it contrasts to "reason".

All of my science problems I've outlined (and the ones I haven't like, oh... with such incredibly low gravity you'd expect animals to have very low bone density. At 20% Earth's gravity, I'd be like General Zod out there. Jumping 5x as far as normal, shattering Thanator skulls with a backhand) could have easily been remedied within the story. It's just, they chose to skimp on the science.

Granted, getting upset about something that COULD have easily been fixed may sound silly... but imagine if Michael J. Fox went to the free throw line at the end of Teen Wolf down by 3 points and the writer had him make both free throws for 2 points each, so Beaverton wins by 1!!

Does that really change the movie? Doesn't affect the movie past anyone who has the slightest knowledge of basketball would choke on their popcorn.

Considering the intended audience of Avatar, probably could have done with consulting the science community when designing creatures (according to Jamie Holt, the botanist Cameron consulted after-the-fact, artists designed the creatures).


Offline RobtheBarbarian

  • Bilbo Baggins Balladeer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4049
  • Liked: 8
  • Snarl!
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #37 on: April 25, 2010, 07:40:14 PM »
I'm sure  there's an excuse for this, but here I go.

I got the impression that the Naavi understand at a basic level what the Avatars are, that a) they are Naavi bodies without consciousnesses when they are not b) being operated by humans. They appear to understand what happens when the Avatar operator releases control of the Naavi body, which then goes into a coma (they call Avatars "dream-walkers" and they have a word for the coma they go into, though I can't remember it). So they seem to get that they're basically brain-dead meat puppets being driven by human miles away.

They're ok with this? Apart from the inherent suspicion they show all humans and outsiders, they're not bothered by what to them must surely seem to be a soulless, dead Naavi who they've never seen before being possessed and animated by a hostile alien's mind? An Avatar would embody the worst qualities of zombies, alien invasion and demonic possession all in one form, especially to a bunch of super mystical space indians.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 07:47:54 PM by RobtheBarbärian »


Offline TTYT

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1930
  • Liked: 5
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #38 on: April 25, 2010, 07:58:55 PM »
I'm sure  there's an excuse for this, but here I go.

I got the impression that the Naavi understand at a basic level what the Avatars are, that a) they are Naavi bodies without consciousnesses when they are not b) being operated by humans. They appear to understand what happens when the Avatar operator releases control of the Naavi body, which then goes into a coma (they call Avatars "dream-walkers" and they have a word for the coma they go into, though I can't remember it). So they seem to get that they're basically brain-dead meat puppets being driven by human miles away.

They're ok with this? Apart from the inherent suspicion they show all humans and outsiders, they're not bothered by what to them must surely seem to be a soulless, dead Naavi who they've never seen before being possessed and animated by a hostile alien's mind? An Avatar would embody the worst qualities of zombies, alien invasion and demonic possession all in one form, especially to a bunch of super mystical space indians.

Tsu'tey directly states that Jake is a "demon in a false body" when he first arrives at Hometree.


Offline RobtheBarbarian

  • Bilbo Baggins Balladeer
  • ******
  • Posts: 4049
  • Liked: 8
  • Snarl!
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #39 on: April 25, 2010, 08:03:06 PM »
He was the Confrontational Dick character. After he gets overruled, most of the other Naavi seem to calm down pretty quickly about Sully's Avatar. That, and the other scientists' Avatars had been showing up for a while to do research and are warmly welcomed.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 08:05:20 PM by RobtheBarbärian »


Offline Nergol

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1011
  • Liked: 51
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #40 on: April 25, 2010, 11:46:18 PM »
What, exactly, was Trudy's plan in breaking Jake, Grace, and Norm out of the brig? Fly to the trailer and then... what? Live there the rest of her life? She doesn't have an avatar body, remember? And as for the others, the situation isn't much better. Sooner or later, without resupply or maintenance from RDA, the trailer is going to run out of food, water, power and/or breathable air. Even if the power is solar and the air regenerated, the machinery behind them is going to break down eventually (sooner rather than later is my guess - the trailer doesn't look like it was built to sustain habitation at full occupancy for years on end). So unless the Na'vi get the Tree Of Souls mind-switching trick to work for all three of them, their human bodies are doomed in fairly short order - and the avatars can't live without without their human bodies (kind of like The Matrix in reverse). So if she's got a plan at all, it doesn't make any sense.

Of course, the humans who stay behind on Pandora at the end of the movie aren't in a lot better shape. That base had a crew of hundreds because it needed it - I'm sure that with the doubtless-astronomical expense of shipping people to Pandora and sustaining them once they're there, there really isn't anyone on that base who doesn't *have* to be there. So how are the remaining humans going to run the base's power, water, air recirculation, and other systems (like, for example, the avatar link devices) without the dozens if not hundreds of techs that RDA considered so crucial to the base's operation that they went through all that expense and trouble to put them on Pandora?

Also, why didn't Quaritch throw Trudy in the brig with the others? When she flew away without firing on Hometree, she was disobeying a direct order in the middle of a battle - certainly more than enough justification to throw her in the brig with the others. And it certainly gave Quaritch plenty of reason to question where her loyalties lie. Why take the risk of letting her walk around free, at least until after your big operation is over?

What would have been wrong with dropping the Daisy Cutter onto the Tree Of Souls from 20,000 feet? You don't need to be *that* accurate. You just need to hit the general vicinity.

How did the entire complement of the base fit onto that *one* ship back to Earth? Wouldn't it have already been filled by people rotating home?

Are you telling me that RDA only has one base on that entire big planet? Is the Unobtainium only in one small area? If not, wouldn't they be wise to put multiple bases on the planet to mine from different locations?

Does RDA only hire Americans? You'd think in an operation this important, they'd hire the world's best smart, scientifically-minded people from all kinds of places. Aren't there any Chinese, Russians, Japanese, Koreans, Germans, Brits, or Indians in the mid 22nd century? Here in the early 21st, there are a lot of people from those places that are pretty good at science and stuff.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2010, 11:51:02 PM by Nergol »


Online MartyS (Gromit)

  • Disembaudio's Squadio
  • *
  • Posts: 12726
  • Liked: 3229
  • Weirdies!
    • My homepage
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #41 on: April 26, 2010, 12:48:30 AM »
What, exactly, was Trudy's plan in breaking Jake, Grace, and Norm out of the brig? Fly to the trailer and then... what? Live there the rest of her life? She doesn't have an avatar body, remember? And as for the others, the situation isn't much better. Sooner or later, without resupply or maintenance from RDA, the trailer is going to run out of food, water, power and/or breathable air. Even if the power is solar and the air regenerated, the machinery behind them is going to break down eventually (sooner rather than later is my guess - the trailer doesn't look like it was built to sustain habitation at full occupancy for years on end). So unless the Na'vi get the Tree Of Souls mind-switching trick to work for all three of them, their human bodies are doomed in fairly short order - and the avatars can't live without without their human bodies (kind of like The Matrix in reverse). So if she's got a plan at all, it doesn't make any sense.

Of course, the humans who stay behind on Pandora at the end of the movie aren't in a lot better shape. That base had a crew of hundreds because it needed it - I'm sure that with the doubtless-astronomical expense of shipping people to Pandora and sustaining them once they're there, there really isn't anyone on that base who doesn't *have* to be there. So how are the remaining humans going to run the base's power, water, air recirculation, and other systems (like, for example, the avatar link devices) without the dozens if not hundreds of techs that RDA considered so crucial to the base's operation that they went through all that expense and trouble to put them on Pandora?

Power doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever... 

But food?  Hmm, I guess they couldn't eat anything local, the list given on the wiki for what's in the atmosphere would probably mean that all the plants and animals would probably be poisonous.  So that would be an issue...

I guess Trudy really was being a martyr, like she said.

Also listed on the wiki is that the cost of the mining operation almost ruined the company, so having only one mine is plausible.

If they were smart they would pull a Star Trek (Devil in the Dark) or Stargate (Enemy Mine) and have the locals mine some magic mineral and trade it to the company for supplies to keep the humans that stay behind alive.

On to another major nitpick I've now got after poking around on the wiki, why was there no mention in the movie that the mineral was a superconductor?  In all the crappy dialog you'd think they would have slipped it in there.  That little fact explains the electromagnetic effects and the flying mountains.  Of course it would also have told everyone the flying mountains are big blocks of the stuff and all the digging the company was doing was really stupid.   Ok not "everyone" but those of us that have see or done the "superconductor floating over a magnet" trick.

Edit:  Also, if they mentioned it was a room temperature superconductor it really would be unobtanium, a room temperature superconductor has been the holy grail of superconductor research for decades.  Currently they only really work well at liquid helium temperatures (why MRI machines are so big is all the insulation around the coil), the ones that work at liquid nitrogen temperatures are considered "high temp" and are too weak to do anything more than demonstrate the meissner effect.
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 10:48:56 AM by MartyS (Gromit) »


Offline ShadowDog

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1917
  • Liked: 102
  • Just call me Mr. PIE
    • Indie Movie Blog
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #42 on: April 26, 2010, 07:44:19 AM »
So the humans wanted to take Unobtanium, a rock that floats.  The first place they want to go to get this stuff is underground where the Na'vi's huge tree is...well you know guys there's a GIGANTIC FLOATING MOUNTAIN RANGE RIGHT OVER THERE!  Gee I wonder if there's any Unobtanium in those!  Just get a couple helicopters over there and push one of the mountains back to base.

LMFAO!  I was wondering the same thing.  I mean, DUH?
"Did she just say Chipping?"


Offline Nergol

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1011
  • Liked: 51
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #43 on: April 26, 2010, 01:43:15 PM »
Quote
Power doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever...

I'm sorry, but I still don't think I buy it. From the time Jake arrives on Pandora, the plot of Avatar takes place over the course of what - six months? Most safety equipment I've ever seen have rated service lives - usually something around six to twelve months. I find the idea that the rebreathers wouldn't have any kind of rated service life hard to buy.

Also, it's not an issue of how much power the trailers can provide. It's two other issues. First, one of how the trailers' generators are powered. What happens when they run out of whatever fuel they use? Are they unobtanium-powered? Well, okay, there's a lot of unobtanium on Pandora, but if you need a refill, doesn't it need to be refined? And how will they do that without the RDA techs there to run the refining equipment? Are they solar? Okay, but then there's still the second issue - which is what happens when whatever generating system the trailers use breaks. Can anyone on the team fix it? Can they fix it without spare parts?

Quote
I guess Trudy really was being a martyr, like she said.

But I really don't think her motivation for that was established at all. I mean, if someone's going to knowingly go on a suicide mission for a cause, their connection to that cause does need to be established somehow. In fact, she's the one member of the team whose motivation for doing so is the least established. I mean, Jake's understandable - he's in love with Neytiri. It'd be passably established that Grace and Norm are in love with the nA'vi culture enough to do that. But Trudy? I mean, it's one thing to not want to mow down innocent Na'vi with your helicopter gunship. It's another to die for them yourself. Why would she do that?
« Last Edit: April 26, 2010, 01:45:06 PM by Nergol »


Offline TTYT

  • Not Hurt By Pain
  • ******
  • Posts: 1930
  • Liked: 5
Re: The Blue Nitpickers: Pick apart the fictional movie here!
« Reply #44 on: April 26, 2010, 05:39:09 PM »
Quote
Power doesn't seem to be a problem, those "trailers" were not very big and they supplied a lot of power to the link machines, same for all the flying machines, and those re-breathers seemed to work forever...

I'm sorry, but I still don't think I buy it. From the time Jake arrives on Pandora, the plot of Avatar takes place over the course of what - six months? Most safety equipment I've ever seen have rated service lives - usually something around six to twelve months. I find the idea that the rebreathers wouldn't have any kind of rated service life hard to buy.

It was 3 months and a few days, actually. And with proper care and storage, an unused rebreather (in our world right now) can can last up to 7 years before the rubber rings and the other soft parts become too worn to be safe. Apparently, the Exopacks in the movie are kind of the same thing, though they last a lot longer. And who's to say everybody was always using the same rebreather every time?

But I really don't think her motivation for that was established at all. I mean, if someone's going to knowingly go on a suicide mission for a cause, their connection to that cause does need to be established somehow. In fact, she's the one member of the team whose motivation for doing so is the least established. I mean, Jake's understandable - he's in love with Neytiri. It'd be passably established that Grace and Norm are in love with the nA'vi culture enough to do that. But Trudy? I mean, it's one thing to not want to mow down innocent Na'vi with your helicopter gunship. It's another to die for them yourself. Why would she do that?