Author Topic: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??  (Read 15436 times)

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Offline Gran

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #30 on: January 28, 2010, 07:36:15 PM »
In fact the sole nauseating aspect of the Ewoks is their theme music. Watch the scenes on mute and all of your anger/contempt will miraculously disappear.

Some of William's music in ROTJ just doesn't seem to fit the scenes.  My favorite example -- when Leia is negotiating a price for Chewbacca with Jabba, and especially when Threepio turns back to her to ask her why she's asking so much, there's this out-of-nowhere sudden blast from the brass section of the orchestra.  Doesn't fit the moment at all IMHO.  He's usually much better at that, but the ROTJ score sounds like it was phoned in.


Offline ShadowDog

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #31 on: January 28, 2010, 09:01:45 PM »
I never saw the Ewok/Sormtrooper battle as an allegory to Vietman (I don't give Lucas that much credit).

He's said that's where he got his inspiration.  He said he was fascinated with how a society with such a low techno level could hold back the most powerful country in the world.  It is interesting and worth exploring ... I just think he did a piss poor job of it.

I don't recall seeing the Ewoks blow up the shield generator thingy, nor do they throw the Emperor down the mineshaft, nor even fly into the Death Star and blow it up.

I wasn't saying they did any of that.  But what we DID see them do was ridiculous.  I just don't buy it.
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Offline Darth Macho

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #32 on: January 28, 2010, 10:51:18 PM »
I don't recall seeing the Ewoks blow up the shield generator thingy, nor do they throw the Emperor down the mineshaft, nor even fly into the Death Star and blow it up.

I wasn't saying they did any of that.  But what we DID see them do was ridiculous.  I just don't buy it.

Would you prefer a less-swashbuckling Star Wars? Maybe one where the Ewoks petition the Senate to resolve the Imperial occupation and negotiate a more favorable trade treaty? If so I've got three terrible alternative movies you can rent...

You're willing to accept a 900-year old amphibian zen master, humans capable of parsing the words--not to mention subtle subtextual cues--of a growling sasquatch, a giant prehensile plant that gains nourishment from a single mammal over a period of a thousand years, deceased people coming back as ghosts and a space station that destroys planets... but a civilization armed with pre-gunpowder weapons attacking an armed garrison destroys your disbelief? If Vietnam analogies don't work at least draw from Colonial American history to find why the scene has a powerful dramatic thrust.

Savages fighting back against conquerors is a literary tradition, and while yes it is cheap now back then it had some impact. George Lucas used the concept for 30 minutes 25 years ago and moved on; James Cameron milked it for 3 hours last month and did nothing else with his movie. So temper your hatred with some perspective. 


Offline Sharktopus

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #33 on: January 29, 2010, 02:01:00 PM »
Would you prefer a less-swashbuckling Star Wars? Maybe one where the Ewoks petition the Senate to resolve the Imperial occupation and negotiate a more favorable trade treaty? If so I've got three terrible alternative movies you can rent...

 :clap: Well played, good sir.


Offline ShadowDog

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #34 on: January 29, 2010, 08:31:51 PM »
I wasn't saying they did any of that.  But what we DID see them do was ridiculous.  I just don't buy it.

Would you prefer a less-swashbuckling Star Wars? Maybe one where the Ewoks petition the Senate to resolve the Imperial occupation and negotiate a more favorable trade treaty? If so I've got three terrible alternative movies you can rent...
[/quote]

So the only two choices IN THE WORLD are what we saw or this alternative?  I think not.  How about the Wookies Lucas was originally planning to use until he realized Chewbacca could fly a spaceship so it wouldn't make sense if the savages in the third movie were all primative?  I would have bought that before I'd buy purse rats taking out the Empire's elite forces with sticks.  And still, it;d be a tough sale.

You're willing to accept a 900-year old amphibian zen master,   

Sure.  Who's to say aliens couldn't have a longer lifespan than humans?  And with more time you have a deeper understanding of the ways of the Force so it makes sense that he's a badass.

humans capable of parsing the words--not to mention subtle subtextual cues--of a growling sasquatch   

This isn't even that farfetched.  There are cases of sailors shipwrecking on isolated islands and learning the native language with no previous experience from either party.  And that's without the benefit of datafile resources you could look up to learn alien languages in the SW universe.

a giant prehensile plant that gains nourishment from a single mammal over a period of a thousand years,

Naw, that was retarded.

deceased people coming back as ghosts 

There's people walking around now who believe this shit for real so suspending my disbelief on this wasn't that hard.

a space station that destroys planets...   

Well, obviously the Emperor had certain ... um ... physical shortcomings he was trying to compensate for in this case.  LMFAO

Savages fighting back against conquerors is a literary tradition, and while yes it is cheap now back then it had some impact.   

It is, you're right.  I just think there comes a large enough gap in technology levels where it's impossible.  Could a tribe armed with sticks and arrows today defeat a modern day tank battalion?  I don't think they could.  What if it was a WWII era tank battalion?  I still don't think they could, but that would be closer.  These kinds of stories made more sense when it was sticks against muskets.  Even in Viet Nam, our heart wasn't in it and the soldiers had their hands tied behind their backs for political reasons more often than not.  It's interesting to think about, anyway.  I'd love to see a story where you have this large a gap in techno levels overcome by in a realistic way.  I just don't know how they could do it.  LOL

So temper your hatred with some perspective. 

So not seeing something the same way as you is hate?  I just don't buy it, man, that's all I was saying.  You're free to buy it and I wouldn't think any less of you.  I'm not trying to pee on your cornflakes here.
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Offline Darth Macho

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #35 on: January 30, 2010, 01:53:09 AM »
How about the Wookies Lucas was originally planning to use until he realized Chewbacca could fly a spaceship so it wouldn't make sense if the savages in the third movie were all primative?

You got your wish 4 1/2 years ago in Revenge of the Sith. Wookies fighting was just as ridiculous and immature as the Ewok scenes, and not nearly as dramatically executed. In the words of Yoda, "Size matters not."

Quote
There are cases of sailors shipwrecking on isolated islands and learning the native language with no previous experience from either party.  And that's without the benefit of datafile resources you could look up to learn alien languages in the SW universe.

Han Solo is exchanging ship repair tips with a fucking DOG... that's not like learning how to speak native islander.

Chewie: RRrrraaarrraaaagghhh!
Han: What's that? Luke's trapped in the old mineshaft?
Chewie: RRrrraAarrraaaagghhh!
Han: OH! You need the 64mm socket for the hydrospanner and you added the little inflection to be sarcastic.

Quote
Could a tribe armed with sticks and arrows today defeat a modern day tank battalion?

I don't want to argue hypotheticals or bust out military analysis for a fictional fantasy film, but in the real world those kinds of upsets do occasionally happen (Somalia, anyone?). There's nothing inherently illogical about the staging of the Endor sequence. You see the bad guys being arrogant and the good guys trying harder to win. Whether it's a teddy bear that smashes an AT-ST like one of Gallagher's melons or a 7-foot yeti dressed like Leonidas, the message of the scene is unchanged.

It's the action, not the character, that matters.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #36 on: January 30, 2010, 02:00:24 AM »
How about the Wookies Lucas was originally planning to use until he realized Chewbacca could fly a spaceship so it wouldn't make sense if the savages in the third movie were all primative?

You got your wish 4 1/2 years ago in Revenge of the Sith. Wookies fighting was just as ridiculous and immature as the Ewok scenes, and not nearly as dramatically executed. In the words of Yoda, "Size matters not."

It's not the same, for the very reason you just said.  "Not nearly as dramatically executed."  The wookie battle scene was nothing more than a giant pander fest.  People were complaining that the prequels weren't enough like the original trilogy, and instead of listening to this legitimate criticism and thinking of a way to adjust the storytelling and plot Lucas said "just shove some wookies on the screen and they'll like it."  The whole sequence could have been cut out and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing about the story, it was just something for Yoda to do to kill time before his battle with Palpatine.  A battle scene involving wookies that actually meant something and that the plot built toward in a meaningful way could have been great.
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Offline Darth Macho

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #37 on: January 30, 2010, 03:18:00 AM »
The wookie battle scene was nothing more than a giant pander fest.  People were complaining that the prequels weren't enough like the original trilogy, and instead of listening to this legitimate criticism and thinking of a way to adjust the storytelling and plot Lucas said "just shove some wookies on the screen and they'll like it."  The whole sequence could have been cut out and it wouldn't have changed a damn thing about the story, it was just something for Yoda to do to kill time before his battle with Palpatine.  A battle scene involving wookies that actually meant something and that the plot built toward in a meaningful way could have been great.

You know what kind of pandering I would have liked to have seen? How about a Wookie literally pulling a droid's arms out of its sockets... seems like a no-brainer. Also, I'd pay an extra dollar to see Itchy do something heroic.


Offline ShadowDog

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #38 on: January 30, 2010, 03:08:35 PM »
I'd have liked to see that too.  Instead we got to see him put robot arms back ON in ESB.  Now that I think about it, I wonder if that was intentional irony given the popularity of that line in the original film?

Han Solo is exchanging ship repair tips with a fucking DOG... that's not like learning how to speak native islander.

Chewie: RRrrraaarrraaaagghhh!
Han: What's that? Luke's trapped in the old mineshaft?
Chewie: RRrrraAarrraaaagghhh!
Han: OH! You need the 64mm socket for the hydrospanner and you added the little inflection to be sarcastic.

LMFAO!  Good point.
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Offline Cosmic Muse

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #39 on: February 01, 2010, 12:18:59 AM »
I don't know about the rest of you guys, but I still haven't learned why Lucas thought it was absolutely necessary to add in a pointless musical interlude into Jedi when the original scene blocking of Jabba's palace was sufficient.
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Offline ShadowDog

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #40 on: February 01, 2010, 07:25:38 AM »
Probably because it was something he wanted to do originally but didn't have the technical ability to pull off at the time.  I'm an indie filmmaker and there's a saying in the low budget film business: "the audience will never miss what they don't know about."  In other words, say your original script had a ten minute running gun battle to kick off your movie.  You end up not being able to afford it, so you start your movie off with the next scene, everybody injured and stumbling into the safe house.  Through dialogue and injuries the audience gets what just happened and the movie flows well and rocks.  The audience will never miss what was in the script because they don't know about it.  But you, the filmmaker, will always miss it.  The saying is supposed to help you let go of what you couldn't afford to do but I can tell you most filmmakers will always miss certain things they had to cut for reasons other than story.  If something was slowing the story down, fine.  But if you had to cut it for some other reason, it always irritates you.

I'm only guessing here, but I suspect it was something like this for Lucas with that scene.
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Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #41 on: February 01, 2010, 12:43:08 PM »
The Ewoks as a character concept are far and away stronger than any of the aliens in the prequels.

You raises some good points but I still have a problem with creatures that small defeating the Empire's best men with sticks and rocks.  I know this is an allegory for Vietnam but the technological gap between the Viet Cong and the US forces was nowhere NEAR this large.  And both sides were roughly the same size whereas the Ewoks would need Prince style lift boots just to be crotch height.

I just don't buy it and didn't even as a kid.


The things that always got me were some of the weapons used against the walkers. 

The big pile of logs set up to roll down the hill.
The big logs on ropes set up to crash together.

How long would it take these little guys to set up those things?  Somehow they had been planning to fight the stormtroopers for weeks or months and had this stuff all set up?  That popped into my head even in the theater the first time I saw ROTJ...

The rest of it seemed plausible considering how inept the storm troopers had been in the previous movies... 

Then there's the whole "walker" issue for me, but movies like these rely on the bad guys having serious weak points in their technology, a single Abrams tank parked at the generator back entrance and it's movie over, bad guys win....


Offline Darth Macho

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #42 on: February 01, 2010, 02:25:59 PM »
The things that always got me were some of the weapons used against the walkers. 

The big pile of logs set up to roll down the hill.
The big logs on ropes set up to crash together.

How long would it take these little guys to set up those things?  Somehow they had been planning to fight the stormtroopers for weeks or months and had this stuff all set up?  That popped into my head even in the theater the first time I saw ROTJ...

The rest of it seemed plausible considering how inept the storm troopers had been in the previous movies... 

Then there's the whole "walker" issue for me, but movies like these rely on the bad guys having serious weak points in their technology, a single Abrams tank parked at the generator back entrance and it's movie over, bad guys win....

Alright, fuck it. I'll go ahead and rationalize the Ewoks taking on the Empire like I'm doing a History Channel documentary.

Ewoks are an aggressive hunter/gatherer species that live at treetop canopy level despite lacking tails or prehensile feet. Obviously they live up there because the ground floor is littered with large mammalian predators. The logs, snares, bolos, rams et al are all standard for primitive species that trap and herd huge prey creatures (their nets are built large enough to ensnare 2 humans, 2 droids and a wookie); they could be using the logs to trap 20-foot tall timberwolves and merely lured the Empire into their traditional kill areas. What's odd is despite all of these tools the Ewoks' primary weapons are short spears... meaning to actually kill their prey they have to expose themselves to danger. Probably a mark of bravery. Ewoks are hardcore.

They build permanent homes and wear clothing which means civilization and implies tribal warfare with neighboring Ewoks. The use of siege catapults, arrows and gliders supports this.

Ewok weapons are well-suited to forest combat against the Empire. Sometime around the 90-minute mark you can actually see an arrow penetrate clear through the back of a Stormtrooper's armor. Really! Their bolos use stones weighing at least 2 pounds and they throw them as easily as a midget in a fursuit would throw a foam replica.

Surprisingly, Ewoks are superior when it comes to tactics as well. They open the attack by infiltrating their primary striking force to within 60 yards of the Imperial force, and begin the attack with a multi-coordinated surprise assault. They employ textbook guerrilla concepts straight from Mao, hitting the Empire at its weakest (dismounted infantry) and fleeing from its strongest (armored walkers). Attacks that fail (catapults, gliders, hand-to-hand combat) are abandoned and replaced by better options (armor is neutralized by terrain, Ewoks begin using Imperial equipment such as bikes, captured walkers and Stormtrooper blasters).

Contrast all of this with the Empire, which sends a Legion of its "finest" but not necessarily most-suitable troops to Endor. Stormtroopers are designed around shock attacks in areas where superior firepower dominates areas of little concealment: Leia's ship in Episode 4 is perfect Stormtrooper terrain. Place them in a low-visibility wilderness where their armor is more a hindrance than a benefit and you'll see their firepower doesn't matter. Armored walkers are best employed in areas of wide, flat terrain where they can blast targets at range and rapidly close with the enemy: in other words, Hoth. Simply put, you don't put armor in dense terrain with poor maneuverability where the enemy can choose to strike first and in 3-dimensional zones your weapons cannot cover. Once the battle started the Empire scattered its troops, with the AT-STs running off unsupported by infantry to be picked off one-by-one. They lost the one remaining tactical advantage of Stormtroopers, massed ranks, when they let their men chase the Ewoks deeper into the forest.

The Empire came prepared to fight the wrong battle and the Ewoks came ready to fight the right one. It's that simple. 


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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #43 on: February 01, 2010, 02:31:04 PM »
Woah! That's Heavy! :o


Offline MartyS (Gromit)

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Re: What Jedi Mind tricks did you learn??
« Reply #44 on: February 01, 2010, 02:43:10 PM »
The things that always got me were some of the weapons used against the walkers. 

The big pile of logs set up to roll down the hill.
The big logs on ropes set up to crash together.

How long would it take these little guys to set up those things?  Somehow they had been planning to fight the stormtroopers for weeks or months and had this stuff all set up?  That popped into my head even in the theater the first time I saw ROTJ...

The rest of it seemed plausible considering how inept the storm troopers had been in the previous movies... 

Then there's the whole "walker" issue for me, but movies like these rely on the bad guys having serious weak points in their technology, a single Abrams tank parked at the generator back entrance and it's movie over, bad guys win....

Alright, fuck it. I'll go ahead and rationalize the Ewoks taking on the Empire like I'm doing a History Channel documentary.

So, you're saying they WERE prepping for this battle for months?  Enough time to set up the 2 traps I listed?

Because the movie certainly gives the idea that while the ewoks might not have liked what the empire was doing on their planet, the attack prompted by the arrival of Han and his team seemed to be spur of the moment as far as the ewoks were concerned....   Maybe the pile of logs rolling down the hill could have been a nasty surprise for a rival band of ewoks, but the 2 big logs swinging from the trees 20 feet above the ground would have no purpose other than to kill walkers.

Like I said, the rest was plausible given the confines of what we had been shown previously.   And it is true even today that people will come up with armor and other defences against the most modern of weapons and forget to defend against more primitive ones.  Armor against energy weapons would be different than armor against projectiles, so the bow and arrow thing never bothered me, just the time involved in setting up the more complicated traps.

Edit: just reread your explanation for the swinging logs, sorry, that's a serious stretch, the animal would have to be deaf and blind, or extremely slow.   Only plausible game for those logs would be very big, very slow to react, and armor plated so much easier weapons like arrows and spears wouldn't work... 
« Last Edit: February 01, 2010, 02:52:34 PM by MartyS (Gromit) »