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Author Topic: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?  (Read 6065 times)

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Offline Cosmic Muse

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #15 on: July 15, 2009, 07:59:05 PM »
Ewoks.
Boba Fett gong out like a punk. Jabba's death was a bit "meh" too.
Ewoks.
A second Death Star. Way to tap that well again.
Ewoks.
Did I mention Ewoks?

Now come on, Ewoks aren't as bad as Gungans. At least the Ewoks are distant cousins of the Wookies.

For me this question depends on which version you're referring to. If you're talking about the Theatrical cut, it's not as bad as you make it, but it still can't compare to Empire Strikes Back.
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Offline dalem

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2009, 08:01:34 PM »
It got retconned in as a bad movie after The Phantom Menace came out.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  Every one of the items on my list is based on the initial release and the years before PM.  PM's acting being stilted did not make ROTJ's acting any better, Jar-Jar being Jar-Jar does not keep Ewoks from being Ewoks, etc.

-dale


Offline MrTorso

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2009, 08:05:53 PM »
I prefer the special edition for just getting rid of the YUB NUB song at the end.
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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2009, 08:28:18 PM »
I've always liked Ewoks.  I don't think the movie would have been as good with Wookies,you would expect wookies to be able to fight the empire and win so they wouldn't be the under dogs.  I don't know i just tend to like stories about unlikely heroes better then stories about likely heroes.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #19 on: July 15, 2009, 08:30:48 PM »
The underdog concept for the Wookies could easily have been achieved because they were an enslaved race without access to weapons. 
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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #20 on: July 15, 2009, 08:37:54 PM »
But that undercuts another theme,friendship.  The Ewoks have no stake in what is going on they going get involved because the rebels make friends with them and they help turn the tide of battle.  If you use an enslaved race that goes away and they are just fighting with whoever is going to set them free.  Also I find it hard to believe that Stormtroopers could keep a planet full of Wookies Enslaved.


Offline RoninFox

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #21 on: July 15, 2009, 08:47:04 PM »
At least according to the books all Wookies were enslaved after the Empire rose to power, including Chewbacca who was freed by Han Solo.  I think the biggest reaspn behind the change to Ewoks is that after Lucas made Chewbacca an intelegent character, capable of using advanced technology, the once primative Wookies didn't fit the right way into the story, but I still think it could have worked
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Offline Pak-Man

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2009, 12:09:32 AM »
There's nothing wrong with Return of the Jedi. People just can't accept that somewhere in a galaxy far, far away, there might be a race of primitive, savage, yet cuddly tribesmen.

RotJ is actually my number 1 Star Wars movie. The entire Han Solo rescue from Jabba's Palace is my favorite moment in all 6 movies, the Speeder Bike scene would be a close second, and I love the idea of C-3P0 being mistaken for a God. It's entirely possible to enjoy RotJ. Heck, it's possible to enjoy the prequels. But hyperbole is woven into every single fiber of the Internet....


Offline BBQ Platypus

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2009, 12:37:38 AM »
Warts and all (and I will admit, there are PLENTY of those), I think it's still twice as good as any of the prequels.  Even Revenge of the Sith.  Hell, maybe even especially RotS.  That movie got praised for being slightly less shitty with a few decent parts thrown in.  It's still a turd pie.

Return of the Jedi is just fine, though.  Sure, it's the weakest of the original trilogy, but criticizing it for only being the third-best Star Wars movie is like dumping on George Harrison for being the third most-talented Beatle (I don't even think that's TRUE - I think that, at his best, he was every bit as talented as Paul and John, but I'm only using this as a point of comparison).



(Oh, and I don't find the Ewoks to be nearly as annoying as some people do.  I don't really LIKE them, but I don't despise them to the point of wishing they would die, which is more than I can say for about half the characters in the prequels).
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Offline Relaxing Dragon

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2009, 01:02:45 AM »
RotJ was actually my favorite one when I was a kid, and I still hold it in fairly high regard. All of the Jabba's Palace stuff is still very cool, the death star space battle at the end is actually my favorite space battle of the whole series, and I'll admit I enjoy most of the Endor stuff (the rebels fighting the imperials, the Ewok stuff not so much).

Plus, I used to visit that state park where they filmed the speederbike chase a lot, and was always very excited by that ;D


Offline Thrifty

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2009, 04:06:27 AM »
It got retconned in as a bad movie after The Phantom Menace came out.

I disagree wholeheartedly.  Every one of the items on my list is based on the initial release and the years before PM.  PM's acting being stilted did not make ROTJ's acting any better, Jar-Jar being Jar-Jar does not keep Ewoks from being Ewoks, etc.

-dale

I don't buy it.  I never heard a peep about how bad Return of the Jedi was until around 2000 when it became trendy to hate George Lucas..  I remember the buzz surrounding Revenge of the Sith in 2005.  Lotta folks said that it looked like it was gonna be the one good film out of the set of prequels, but then almost immediately after the movie came out a new set of people cropped up scrambling for reasons why it sucked.

In short, I distrust the sincerity of any opinion about Star Wars.  Lucas hating is just so in vogue that I don't see opinions, I see parrots.


Offline dignan

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2009, 04:53:20 AM »
Watch Clerks, that kind of kicked off the "ROTJ is crap" debate amongst my friends at least, and that was what, 1994?  I agree with BBQ, ROTJ might have its duffer moments, and Harrison Ford is definitely just phoning in his performance, but it's still miles ahead of Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, and Revenge of the Sith, in my opinion.  Plus it's got that really old guy on the Rebel Strike Force squad.  What's up with that really old guy?  Why did they send the really old guy with them?  What's he doing there?  I love that guy.  And it's got the Imperial officer who says "You rebel scum."   


Offline James of LinHood

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2009, 06:30:14 AM »
I totally agree with Ronin that Lucas should have stuck to his original storyline and used Wookies instead of Ewoks.  It would have made more sense to have the second Death Star orbiting Kashyyyk while the Empire used the Wookies as slave labor, anyway.

Still, I really, really enjoy Return of the Jedi.  I remember when I first saw The Emperor shoot Force Lightning from his fingers.  That blew my mind as a kid.  And, IMO, Ian McDiarmid's performance makes the last 30 minutes of RotJ just that much more awesome.

When push comes to shove, I prefer the Special Edition over the original, only because that horrible Yub, Yub song is taken out of the ending and a much more appropriate Williams score replaces it.  But, really, this is a double edged sword because I really hate the new extended CGI music performance in Jabba's palace.  It's like Lucas decided that RotJ needed a goofy musical intermission which completely counteracts the darkness of the scenes surrounding it.  It's just grating for me to sit though.

So, other than that and the stupid Ewoks (But they are much less annoying than Gungans) I think RotJ is a fine film.
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Offline Tripe

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2009, 06:39:35 AM »
And, IMO, Ian McDiarmid's performance makes the last 30 minutes of RotJ just that much more awesome.
And you are correct about the awesomeness of the Emperor which is why I wished there had been more.

I didn't actually see Jedi for years having read the novelization instead (yes, I was a bookish child, quite surprising I'm sure you'll agree).


Offline Plastic Self-Cleaning Duck

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Re: Ok I give up what is so bad about Return of the Jedi?
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2009, 08:49:39 AM »
Ewoks.
Boba Fett gong out like a punk. Jabba's death was a bit "meh" too.
Ewoks.
A second Death Star. Way to tap that well again.
Ewoks.
Did I mention Ewoks?

Can't mention them enough - "They're going to burn Luke, Han and Chewie alive!  Isn't that adorable!".  Besides, wouldn't the Ewoks have thought Chewie - a giant version of them - looked like a god to them and C3PO scare them shitless?

ROTJ is half of a good film.  The escape from Jabba (minus Boba Fett sleepwalking through the whole thing and then just giving up and diving into the beastie) was cool.  So was the speeder chase.

After that it's pretty bad.

Yoda dying was one thing - would have been better if his dialogue hadn't just been largely a "cut and paste" job from the ESB script. But then the real writer of ESB, Leah Brackett was dead (I don't buy a word of Lucas' contention that he only put her name on the movie "out of respect" - he's just screwing her family out of possible earnings).  And the guy he was left with tends to "cut and paste" scenes from one of his own script to the others (the "kissing of boo-boos" thing went from Raiders or Continental Divide for instance - or vice versa)

Obi-Wan comes back to tell Luke, "Yeah, I lied to you. What are you going to do about it?"  And he also can't be bothered to tell Luke that the Emperor can emit lightning bolts from his hands either?  You'd think he or Yoda just might have mentioned that so Luke could be on guard?  They did want him to win, didn't they?

This is also the film that took the first Really Cool Villian Created In a Long Time and neutered him.  People talk about Anakin being a sniveling jerk in the Prequels - this is where it started.  Suddenly he's the victim - he wouldn't be doing any of this if it weren't for the Dark Side.  Suddenly, we're supposed to transfer all our hate to the Emperor and cheer because Vader saves his son...?

And then Vader because of one act - which saving your own son when you even stood by and let a planet with millions of people be destroyed sounds like a selfish act to me - gets to go to Jedi Heaven with the other Jedis who stayed true all their lives?

And I won't even talk about that last scene in the "Special Edition"...