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Author Topic: The magic of Christmas  (Read 8624 times)

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Offline MoralThreat

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #30 on: December 12, 2006, 01:05:13 PM »
It doesn't really feel like Christmas time to me until I break out the mistletoe belt.   ;D


Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #31 on: December 12, 2006, 03:44:00 PM »
Love.  That's a good one.  Taking time to recognize the love around you.  Even I can get into that.  Thank you Steve-O.

And thank you all for helping me find what Christmas should be about.  As for if that's what it is really about, or if that's what other people think it's about, I'm not so sure. But that's what I'm going to make it be for me and my future family.  I'm still not going to call it Christmas, I'll think of another name.  But it's convenient to have holidays when you have time off, so I'll probably keep it around the same day.


Offline Steve-O

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #32 on: December 12, 2006, 04:28:51 PM »
Love.  That's a good one.  Taking time to recognize the love around you.  Even I can get into that.  Thank you Steve-O.

Hey, happy to help.

Of course, there's always Linus' explanation:

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/6pHVtaS0jHo" target="_blank" class="new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/6pHVtaS0jHo</a>


Offline Sharktopus

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #33 on: December 13, 2006, 04:31:02 AM »
I've actually heard of several theories that state that many societies have a major Winter holiday to help counteract the depression caused by winter.  So all that yuletide cheer is there to help ease the horrible time that is winter.

It's not a theory. Virtually every society that has winter (i.e. non-equatorial) has some sort of solstice celebration. Jesus' birthday being so close to the winter solstice is no coincidence. Neither is the timing of Hanukkah or Ramadan. Back before the days of electric light and heated homes, (and before we started messing up the atmosphere) this would be the darkest, coldest, dead of winter. The solstice celebration brought everyone in the community together to share warmth, food, and perhaps most importantly, to stave off cabin fever. In modern America that purpose has been lost, or at least greatly diminished. In fact, you could argue that Valentine's day has taken its place, as mid February is now the dead of winter for much of the United States. That's the basic origin of "Christmas," dated way back before Christ was born.

If I may make a suggestion, Variety, don't call yourself a "scrooge." Besides not celebrating Christmas, Ebenezer Scrooge was an all-around heartless miser who had no love for his fellow man. I don't know you, but I doubt you'd qualify as a scrooge. Maybe a grinch, but not a scrooge.  ;)


Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #34 on: December 13, 2006, 11:08:34 AM »
Yes, I agree that it was a poor choice of a title.  Though technically if you call some one a scrooge it should mean some one who used to be stingy but is now a changed man.  And I'm not a grinch, I don't want to take Christmas away from other people.  I'm not sure what I am, maybe crotchety, skeptical. I am a fan of the word 'humbug' however. 

And my beef with them moving Christmas to the winter is because they did it purposefully to convert pagans who had their celebration at that time.  That's the same time they adopted the Christmas tree as well, also to convert pagans.  For Christians I'm sure it's not terribly important what day they celebrate Christmas on just as long as they celebrate it, and they would argue that it doesn't matter if it's not his real birthday, it's the thought that counts.  But that doesn't mean it's ok to be deceitful in your attempts to destroy other people's beliefs. 


Offline Pak-Man

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2006, 11:15:54 AM »
Moving Christmas to a more Equinoxy date wasn't an act of deception. It was more of a concession. It was the Christians telling the Pagans, "You know, you can still celebrate the way you always have AND celebrate God at the same time!"

Believe me there are MUCH more shameful ways we Christians have imposed our religion throughout history. :^)


Offline J-Proof

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2006, 12:58:18 PM »
Moving Christmas to a more Equinoxy date wasn't an act of deception. It was more of a concession. It was the Christians telling the Pagans, "You know, you can still celebrate the way you always have AND celebrate God at the same time!"

Believe me there are MUCH more shameful ways we Christians have imposed our religion throughout history. :^)

Speaking of which - go watch Apocalypto!!
J to the Pizzo
P to the Jizzay...


Offline AmandaGal

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #37 on: December 17, 2006, 04:52:13 PM »
Quote
Moving Christmas to a more Equinoxy date wasn't an act of deception. It was more of a concession.

Very well said. I believe that if Christians believe what they believe (hmm),  trying to convert as many Pagans to their beliefs as possible is what they have to do.  It's the only loving thing they can do within their belief structure.  That being said, it's one thing to lovingly show someone the good of your religion and invite them in and a whole other to force it on someone.  To me, making up the date isn't "forcing" anyone to convert but making it easier and making it more attractive to Pagans. 

It's not like they killed anyone or there was any blood shed. Christians would never do that in the name of relig...oh wait a second.  Damn.  What was my point? :-)

Anyway, OT & ime (and this is the reason I seldom admit to having any religion at all) modern Pagans are generally very anti-Christian and generally equally as non-tolerant of religion as anyone else (notice I said generally). Someone invites them to church and they go into a tirade about it.  It gives us a bad name and makes it look like all Pagans hate Christians.  I wish the entire human race would lighten up.  I'll go to church.  I've gone to church with boyfriends and friends, etc.  It's not like the preacher jumps on your chest and screams, "CAST OUT SATAN YE PAGAN HEATHEN!!" while smothering you with frankincense.  It's kind of sweet when someone wants to share something so intimate with you without shoving it down your throat.  It's kind of sweet that someone doesn't want you to burn in hell, lol.  Granted, some shove it down your throat and I have a few people who won't even speak to me once they find I'm not Christian (they don't even know I *am* Pagan) but I live in the Bible belt and consider it their loss anyway.  I have gone to some churches and talked to minister who more or less told me I was going straight to hell but I've gone to some where the minister was actually intelligent and eloquent and nice to talk to.

Christmas isn't really about religion anymore anyway.
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Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #38 on: December 17, 2006, 06:02:22 PM »
To address the argument that changing the birth day of Jesus didn't kill any one, and therefore it's ok, I don't agree.  By robbing a culture of their religion, calling it wrong and condemning those who believe it to hell, you destroy a culture.  They are left without a purpose and become a shadow of who they were.  It kills a people when you take their religion from them, because unlike us, they had no separation of church and state.  Their church was their state.  They knew who they were and they knew their place in the world.  When you take that from them, you kill them.  And I'm sorry, but even if you did it to try and save their souls, your actions do not justify your means.  Just because you are acting on your beliefs and out of love does not mean your actions are for the good of those people.
« Last Edit: December 17, 2006, 06:16:57 PM by varietyofcells »


Offline AmandaGal

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #39 on: December 17, 2006, 06:22:11 PM »
Quote
Just because you are acting on your beliefs and out of love does not mean your actions are for the good of those people.

I didn't say it was for the good of the people, necessarily.  However, I'm sure most Christians think it is. 

I just think that if I thought for sure my best friend/neighbor/loved one was doomed for all eternity, I'd try my best to save them.  If I knew in my heart that they were going to suffer forever because of the choices they were making, I would try to convince them to stop.  Like if someone you loved was strung out on crack, they'd be convinced it was the best thing ever but you know it's not.  Wouldn't you try to stop them?  I would and I have...doesn't help.  However, I'm not going to stand by and say, "eh, if they think it's going to help, let the smoke crack."

Not that I'm saying Paganism is like crack but if you really believe in Jesus Christ and you really believe He is the Saviour, then everyone else is wrong and oops, that's a big mistake to make.  Hell ain't supposed to be fun. That's why I can understand why I've had a friend cry for me when she found out I didn't believe in Him.  That's why I can understand why people try to push their religion on me when all I want is "freedom."  Do I think they're right? No.  Of course not.  If I thought I was doomed to Hell for all eternity, I'd be saying some "Hail Marys" and going to confession but I can understand why they think I am.

The wars, the people who were killed for Christ, those were clearly wrong and clearly not even in line with the religion they were said to represent.  Changing a date?  I think that was to bring more people into the "flock."  To give people a chance to have some of the traditions they've come to know and yet still be Christians.  That's probably one of the nicest ways Christianity has tried to covet Pagans. :)

Granted, I know many Pagans who didn't convert have been killed throughout the years.  How many missionaries have bribed people with food to get them to convert (not all missionaries are bad, one of my best friends does mission trips quite often).  Religion is often used to hurt people, which is just wrong.  I just don't take offense at this particular instance!

However, feel free to take offense all you want. I was just explaining my view.  :D
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Offline Minnesota

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #40 on: December 17, 2006, 07:17:20 PM »
I like Christmas and I wish people could find that happy medium and stop debating it ^^^

anyway its like American Dad said "I need to go somewhere where I can appreciate Christmas" Francine says, "church?" American Dad says, "No I don't want to be bored Francine... the Mall"

My opinion is simple: leave Christmas alone because I like it the way it is


Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #41 on: December 17, 2006, 10:12:27 PM »
I'm not offended by what you are saying, I'm just explaining my view.

You have a valid point, and I can't turn around and say I disagree with it.  If a Christian truly believes then they owe it to their friends to try and convert them. 

However, I truly believe that even if a missionaries only goal is to help, as long as their form of helping is to have them be more like us, then it is not helping.  Replacing their shortages with our food and our medicine may "save" lives in the short run, but it does not help them as a people.  Similarly, replacing their religion with ours may have saved them from us killing them, but it still kills who they are and who they were.  The way I see it, either by changing the date of Christmas or cold blooded slaughter, you are still killing the people. 


Offline Minnesota

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #42 on: December 17, 2006, 10:55:59 PM »
My opinion is simple: leave Christmas alone because I like it the way it is


Offline AmandaGal

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #43 on: December 17, 2006, 11:52:25 PM »
Hmm, I'm not too clear on Minnesota's opinion.   ;)
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Offline Variety of Cells

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Re: The magic of Christmas
« Reply #44 on: December 17, 2006, 11:53:00 PM »
My opinion is simple: leave Christmas alone because I like it the way it is

Alright Minnesota, I'll go easy on you, but only because I live in you.

Your sentence's motives are contradicting themselves.  You begin by saying it is your opinion.  Usually, when a sentence begins with that statement, it means that what is to follow is to only be taken as an opinion, and should not be seen as anything but.  The next part of your sentence, however, is demanding that I do as you say.  So why should I do something just because you have an opinion? 

And the part that bothers me is that you think I'm trying to take away your precious Christmas, when earlier in the discussion I had already had my revelation.  I already did my buying and distributing of big fat turkeys.  I'm sorry if you didn't get one. 

Though I don't appreciate you trying to cut off a conversation that doesn't pertain to you.  I would have no problem if you wanted to chime in and give your reasons why it was or why it wasn't a bad thing to move the date of Christmas (which is what me and a few others were currently having a conversation about, not about banning Christmas.  So don't worry, you'll still get your presents), but to come in late and demand that this conversation stop because you have an 'opinion' is ridiculous. 

And to everyone, if this conversation about Christmas appears in any way malicious, then I apologize.  It is meant purely as a discussion of ideas.  I don't expect many to agree with me, but I thought I would put another view point out there.  If I feel strongly about something I will keep talking until I have the last word, unless common ground is met. 
« Last Edit: December 18, 2006, 12:11:10 AM by varietyofcells »