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Author Topic: The Economic Downturn..  (Read 121203 times)

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Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #480 on: August 11, 2011, 10:56:04 AM »
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  I feel comforted knowing that even if Wells Fargo went completely bankrupt tommorrow, my $5000 would still be mine.

It wouldnt still be yours though.  YOUR 5000 would be gone.  A different 5000 would be repaid to you, but make no mistake its money coming from somewhere.


 
And that's why I think the 401K was such a pig in a poke.

I dont know what this means.  I assume it means you dont trust 401ks but i dont know anyone who was worse off for having one. 


Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #481 on: August 11, 2011, 11:04:31 AM »
And that's why I think the 401K was such a pig in a poke.
I dont know what this means.  I assume it means you dont trust 401ks but i dont know anyone who was worse off for having one.  
It's evidently a British expression.. However "let the cat out of the bag" refers to the same transaction once the peasant had made his way back to his hovel.

Not better off than previous generations who had a guarenteed pension to save for, being tied to the market they fluctuate and can lose massively.


Offline MSTJedi

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #482 on: August 11, 2011, 11:05:28 AM »
And that's why I think the 401K was such a pig in a poke.

I'd never trust any retirement plan that depended on the stock exchange, it's too volatile. A lot of people's retirement funds based on 401ks and mutual funds have been ruined because of this recession. Of course, right now I can't even pay my current bills, let alone set anything back for retirement, so it's all academic.



Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #483 on: August 11, 2011, 11:09:19 AM »
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being tied to the market they fluctuate and can lose massively

Uh what ISNT tied to the market?  Even putting your cash in your mattress= letting the market force of inflation eat away at the value.


Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #484 on: August 11, 2011, 11:12:44 AM »
The pensions they replaced were not tied to the market in the same way nor is the mattress plan you're talking about, frankly you're simply being obtuse.

Nor is the FDIC correctly categorised in your description of it, unless you have a problem with insurance in general.


Offline Thrifty

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #485 on: August 11, 2011, 11:18:29 AM »
The pensions they replaced were not tied to the market in the same way nor is the mattress plan you're talking about, frankly you're simply being obtuse.

Aren't pension funds usually invested?



Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #486 on: August 11, 2011, 11:21:35 AM »
Not initially, no, only fairly recently and again not by the individual. And, again, not in the same was as the 401K is.

Now consider the 401K and think about the plans people have now and then to replace social security with a market based fund.

Actually, one thing that might improve the 401K would be expanding it to allow for commodities and futures trading options, but that's me speaking personally, it'd actually be even more confusing for most people in practise.
« Last Edit: August 11, 2011, 11:35:09 AM by Tripe H. Redux »


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #487 on: August 11, 2011, 11:31:45 AM »
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Nor is the FDIC correctly categorised in your description of it, unless you have a problem with insurance in general

What is wrong with the way i described it?  the money comes from the government.  It COMES from somewhere its not your money returned. 

And the mattress plan?  What is wrong with that too?  inflation eats at money.  the money you put away in the 70s doesnt have the same buying power it would now. 

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Nor is the FDIC correctly categorised in your description of it, unless you have a problem with insurance in general.

I dont have a problem with insurance at all. I dont have a problem with anything ive described above.  The way i see it if you get money you are in the market wether you want to be or not.  Only a barter system might be above market forces and even then not really. 


Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #488 on: August 11, 2011, 11:34:44 AM »
Like I said obtuse.

It's OK you can be as obtuse as you like, but that's what you're being.


Offline Thrifty

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #489 on: August 11, 2011, 11:43:19 AM »
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Nor is the FDIC correctly categorised in your description of it, unless you have a problem with insurance in general

What is wrong with the way i described it?  the money comes from the government.  It COMES from somewhere its not your money returned. 

And the mattress plan?  What is wrong with that too?  inflation eats at money.  the money you put away in the 70s doesnt have the same buying power it would now. 

You're just being obtuse and creating distinctions that don't exist.  How is it not my money?  I have the right to withdraw it when I see fit.  That defines it as my money.  It's not like there's some big stack of 250 twenty dollar bills with predetermined serial numbers that only I may have.


Danecho1967

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #490 on: August 11, 2011, 11:51:02 AM »
There is no truth to what he's saying, Tripe?  There is a little.  No real need to be insulting.

Look, if my grandmother hid $500 under the floorboard when she was 20 (1932, I think) she would be hiding away what would amount to a fortune for her.  If I found that $500 today, it would pay my car payment and most of my car insurance for one month.  This is because the money had been effected, just sitting there, by market forces (in this case, inflation.)  All of this is true, but doesn't address the difference between pensions and 401k's.

Sarc, there is a problem with your analogy.  Yes, there are market forces at work in nearly any transaction, but you are comparing two very different things..  

A 401k, which many people rely on for their retirement today, is a direct investment, by the individual, into the stock market.  The value of their investment is directly effected by the volitility of the market.

However, in the case of an "old-fashioned" pension system, the person was guaranteed a pension (by virtue of their employment contract) upon retirement.  The employer was contractually obligated to pay the pension.  The employer had to bring in money, either through the business or through investment, to pay off that pension when the contract said they had to.

So, you can see, a person who was guaranteed a pension had, at the very least, a better view of what their retirement would be like than a person who has to hope that the market doesn't make their 401k worthless.

See?  We can all be civil about this.


Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #491 on: August 11, 2011, 11:53:03 AM »
I'm not, obtuse doesn't mean there isn't truth in the statement, nor is it insulting, it's merely an accurate description of his behaviour.


Danecho1967

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #492 on: August 11, 2011, 12:01:19 PM »
I'm not, obtuse doesn't mean there isn't truth in the statement, nor is it insulting, it's merely an accurate description of his behaviour.
Fair enough.  Insulting is not really the right word.  Condescending is a better one. I actually shouldn't call you out on it.  I've been a little condescending toward people here recently myself.


Offline sarcasm_made_Easy

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #493 on: August 11, 2011, 01:30:34 PM »
Like I said obtuse.

It's OK you can be as obtuse as you like, but that's what you're being.

seriously man wtf are you talking about.  I didnt say i was or was not being obtuse although based on the description thanks to websters i have to say no im not and you just dont like being questioned.   I would say your dissmissive attitude of what i said is weird for you.  If you disagree with me say so.  Dont just call me dense.  Further if your not gonna answer questions put to you dont bother posting insults like the one above. 

As to FDIC insured money, i fail to see how what i said is wrong.  Ill cut you some slack and assume i didnt word it well enough to explain my point.   My money (aka money i have earned and worked) I put into the bank.  The bank goes under aka invest all the money badly and loses it all.  The government says well those who put their money into the bank we have insured.  So they pay those who lost their money in the bank with their money (i assume revenue gathered from taxes).  So although you are paid back and you still have the same amount of money, the money you have came from a different place.  Was made in a different manner.  It is literally different money. 


Offline Tripe

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Re: The Economic Downturn..
« Reply #494 on: August 11, 2011, 01:32:14 PM »
I didn't say you were dense I said you were being obtuse. It's not an insult.