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General Discussion => Books 'n Readin' => Topic started by: bettertomorrowamy on June 10, 2008, 06:18:57 PM

Title: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 10, 2008, 06:18:57 PM
(http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/41A2X680KVL._SS500_.jpg)
http://www.amazon.com/Women-Charles-Bukowski/dp/0876853904 (http://www.amazon.com/Women-Charles-Bukowski/dp/0876853904)
   
28 of 32 people found the following review helpful:
 Not for the faint of heart, July 23, 2001
By    Saxon Kane "Sax" (Tucson, AZ USA) - See all my reviews

First off, this book will offend people. It will probably offend you. You need to be offended. You need to be shaken out of your complacency. You need to be smacked upside the head with the crude and vulgar beauty of Bukowski's life and prose. You should get an injection of his drunken, debauched lifestyle. You should read this book.
This is the first Bukowski novel that I have read, on a recommendation from a friend. The man has a way with words. A true Hemingway in the way he gives insightful and penetrating descriptions of people, but never actually tells you what they are thinking. He is able to paint a deep character profile of all the many women in his life with a little dialogue and some crazy actions. Some may find it degrading towards women, but I don't feel that it is. Sure, he is sometimes crude, sometimes angry, sometimes insulting towards women, but he is equally so towards himself. If anything, I feel he shows the tragic sexual immaturity of both women and men. While his lifestyle may be on the extreme, and something that most of us have never even gotten close to, he demonstrates things that anyone who has been in a relationship can identify with.

All in all, I don't think Bukowski was writing a book about relationships that people would identify with. That is far too cheesy and mid '90s flaky for him. I think this was more just a painful self-evisceration. I think he was tearing himself open, and laughing about it, and proudly showing off his darkest, and also his most beautiful, thoughts, actions, and emotions.



Anybody who wants to join in can.  We're gonna read to page 75, and then discuss.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 11, 2008, 05:34:19 AM
Still need to get the book, but I'll do that this week :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 11, 2008, 05:37:07 AM
I've already read to where I said I'd stop.  It is a really quick read.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 11, 2008, 05:39:17 AM
Yeah I flipped through it at Borders, it's a bit like The Pure and the Impure
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 11, 2008, 05:49:35 AM
I am going to start reading it today. Chop Chop, Tripe!
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 12, 2008, 07:56:58 AM
Well, I guess I will be the first to post. I think this is going to be an interesting discussion for a single guy, a married guy, and a gal. A lot of the female readers of Chinaski accuse him of "hating" women. I certainly don't feel that way, but one could never accuse him of being a metrosexual.
Two things that did jump out at me. Chinaski comments on the social or intelligence) status of two different women, Selma  (the professor's wife on pg 32) and Nicole (the cultured world traveler). I got the feeling that fucking these types of women offer Chinaski self-empowerment. Let the record show, that I do the same thing.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 12, 2008, 08:08:04 AM
Well, I guess I will be the first to post. I think this is going to be an interesting discussion for a single guy, a married guy, and a gal. A lot of the female readers of Chinaski accuse him of "hating" women. I certainly don't feel that way, but one could never accuse him of being a metrosexual.
Two things that did jump out at me. Chinaski comments on the social or intelligence) status of two different women, Selma  (the professor's wife on pg 32) and Nicole (the cultured world traveler). I got the feeling that fucking these types of women offer Chinaski self-empowerment. Let the record show, that I do the same thing.

Bukowski = The Author of the Novel
Chinaski = The protagonist who is the proxy for Bukowski in the novel (and other novels)

Just so we're clear. :)


Also come on people it's good to do things in a group, and the books under $15.00 (even less from Amazon) plus part of being a member of the book club is the chance to have us all read a book of your choosing.




Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 12, 2008, 08:13:04 AM
Bukowski = The Author of the Novel
Chinaski = The protagonist who is the proxy for Bukowski in the novel (and other novels)

Just so we're clear. :)



Duh
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 12, 2008, 08:16:11 AM
it's just that you mentioned Chinaski's readers thinking he hates women, when that's actually a criticism that can be leveled at Bukowski.given the context of that sentence ;)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 12, 2008, 11:02:24 AM
Oh, don't chase away our 3rd member on semantics.  She's totally wrong, but don't rub it in.   :D

Also, I'd like to second Tripe's call for more people.  Come on!

I can already tell it will be more fun with anais.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 12, 2008, 11:09:03 AM
Incidentally the edition I'll be getting has a different cover so I'm not sure if the pagination is the same, 75 is the end of a chapter right?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 12, 2008, 11:13:25 AM
no, the cahpter ends on 75.

Oh, don't chase away our 3rd member on semantics.  She's totally wrong, but don't rub it in.   :D


Whatever BTA. I noticed you haven't mentioned anything about the actual book yet!
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 12, 2008, 11:13:38 AM
I don't have this edition either.  I have the one that is yellow and has a woman's legs on it in white, red, and black.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 12, 2008, 11:29:56 AM
Ah ok, that's the edition I'm thinking of :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 13, 2008, 12:35:11 PM
I have read to page 75
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 13, 2008, 12:35:35 PM
Ah ok, that's the edition I'm thinking of :)

Tick-tock Tripe!   ;D
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 13, 2008, 12:37:55 PM
I'll be there presently.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 14, 2008, 06:57:46 AM
Ok so thoughts:

First off, for a while when I was about 15 or so there was a woman who lived next door who was quite like Lydia: two kids (twin girls rather than older boy and younger girl), pretty brunette, completely, almost homicidally, deranged.

Second do you have a different edition to me Anais? He lusts after Selma in a sort of general way but he actually gets down to business with another woman during that speaking engagement, Lilly.

Thirdly, have you both seen Withnail and I? If you like Bukowski I think you'd enjoy that film if you've not already seen it, conversely I love the film and I'm really enjoying the book as it taps into many of the same pools of inspiration but with the added element of a successful (and, within the narrative, newly revitalized) sex life.

What a shame Chinaski wasn't around for the advent of Craigslist and the like, he'd have had a ball  ;)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 14, 2008, 10:04:20 AM
I don't have a different addition. He lusts after Selma, reffering to her as the "property" of another man. That is the point I was trying to make.

Tripe, why do you think Chinaski would stay with the homocidal Lydia. I used to be a lot like Lydia and I got dumped a lot, yet other girls would get dumped, and then stalk their exes (leaving messages on their machine, waiting outside their door for them to come home) and they would end up getting back together

So i guess what i am saying is: How come the crazy-girl approach works for Lydia and this other girl I knew but not me?

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 14, 2008, 12:34:14 PM
Possibly you are attracted to a certain personality type that doesn't like the psychogirl approach. It certainly worked for my erstwhile neighbour, she would have physical altercations (in which the bloke was constantly taking defensive postures as she hammered away at him with her fists and elbows in the back garden, but he never left or on the one or two occasions when he did he came back quick-smart.

Take Ted Hughes for example, two of his missuses topped themselves but apparently he was going for that sort of girl at the time. The thing that impressed him about Sylvia was when she bit a chunk out of his cheek at their first meeting.

I think Hank's been so long without a woman that he sort of imprints on the first one to offer him any sort of play. Plus she taught him a new trick, that'll always make a girl stay in one's mind.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 14, 2008, 02:06:23 PM
...plus Selma(or whatever her name was) worshipped him for his writing talent, while Lydia loved him but was very envious of his artistic talents.  I think she has a love-hate thing going for him:  she loves him for his writing and hates him just as much at the same time.  Hank seems to like that love-hate thing and that's why he can't be with a woman like Selma for too long.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 14, 2008, 04:57:35 PM
You boys are missing my point with Selma.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 14, 2008, 05:22:47 PM
Nobody can answer why you like men that hate you.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 15, 2008, 08:27:32 AM
You boys are missing my point with Selma.

Er but this was your point:

Selma  (the professor's wife on pg 32) and Nicole (the cultured world traveler). I got the feeling that fucking these types of women offer Chinaski self-empowerment. Let the record show, that I do the same thing.

Putting aside the little Augustinian Confession moment at the end, it's predicated on something Hank doesn't do: Fuck Selma.

Is the point you're making that Hank doesn't want to be empowered?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 15, 2008, 08:37:22 AM
Well what it comes down to is convenience for Hank.  The women is crazy enough to scare other men off somewhat, but not too crazy that she isn't worth being around with.  Hank kinda slips in there and takes advantage of her weaknesses and needs.  They seem to fill each others needs though too.  Hank is lazy in all things but his talents.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 15, 2008, 12:15:45 PM
So I think we have a pretty good initial idea of the character and situations thereof, do we want to discuss a little more, or decide on a new place to read to?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 15, 2008, 12:26:57 PM
More reading gets my vote.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 15, 2008, 06:30:05 PM
more reading


Nobody can answer why you like men that hate you.

I think i've figrued out why women hate you though
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 15, 2008, 07:18:10 PM
Ok so to 150 then?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 15, 2008, 09:31:55 PM
Sounds Good
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 17, 2008, 08:50:10 AM
I haven't finished yet, but I wanted to comment on Hank's opinions of relationship beginings. I love how at first he mentions that they are so much work, and then he explains that the begining is the esay part. His musings on relationships are so accurate (kinds like that Bjork song)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 17, 2008, 11:37:45 AM
Not finished either but I loved the chapter on camping; it's always amusing how banjaxed city people are by the countryside.  :D

Oh and the chapter following that is really memorable for an absolutely horribly real description of the mischief he does himself in the bedroom  :speechless:
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 17, 2008, 01:26:11 PM
Oh Man!  You guys need to spoiler those.   :grr:    :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 18, 2008, 07:07:10 PM
Ok, ready when you are :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 18, 2008, 08:02:44 PM
I have ten pages left to read
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 19, 2008, 07:40:40 PM
Done, I am
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 20, 2008, 05:21:48 AM
Before you make the offer, I'll pass on the curiously tinted breakfast items.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 20, 2008, 01:33:09 PM
Sounds like a pretty crappy plan, but ok
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 26, 2008, 05:15:48 AM
This is my favorite line:  "The rest of us will be alright until the poor learn how to make atom bombs in their basements."

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 26, 2008, 05:21:57 AM
By which i take it you've reached 150?

Ok cool, I like Tammie much more than Lydia, though neither would be top of my list of people to ever run into.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 26, 2008, 06:37:46 AM
I don't know. Both are crazy, but Tammie is crazy because of drugs.
Now that Henry is getting more poon on a reg basis, why is he even with these chicks? Clearly, he has issues about women and their craziness.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 26, 2008, 06:41:09 AM
Well yes but the girls he wants most have to have an element of the crazy.

Oh and another thing, while Lydia and Tammie are loopy,, the person I really dislike is Hank's downstairs neighbour, and I don't have the book to hand to look up his name.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 26, 2008, 08:37:13 AM
They guy who likes to play/hang around when his wife is at work?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 26, 2008, 08:48:31 AM
That's the bastard
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 26, 2008, 09:53:42 AM
why don't you like him? I don't like him, but I don't hate him
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 26, 2008, 12:04:06 PM
I don't know i suppose I tend to have shorter patience for blokes than girls, in general I prefer hanging out with the latter and I'd have very limited tolerance for the bloke downstairs.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 29, 2008, 07:37:53 AM
So, shall we read on then?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 29, 2008, 08:22:57 PM
Why does Tammie all of a sudden start talking about sucking everybody off (including her brother)?  Did Hank do something?  Maybe I missed that part, or maybe she's just a hot whackjob?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 29, 2008, 08:23:48 PM
I'm ready to read to page 225 or whatever.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 30, 2008, 05:02:00 AM
Why does Tammie all of a sudden start talking about sucking everybody off (including her brother)?  Did Hank do something?  Maybe I missed that part, or maybe she's just a hot whackjob?

she's just a hot whackjob

225 sounds good, unless anyone wanted to discuss anything else before we go on :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 30, 2008, 08:38:11 AM
Did i miss the part where tammie talks about blowing her brother?

i must have.

225 sounds good to me.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 30, 2008, 12:00:33 PM
I wanted to discuss why Tammie said she wanted to suck everyone off.  Anybody know?

It's page 119.  Tammie says, "I think I'll suck somebody off.  I think I'll suck off Bobby, I think I'll suck off Louie, I think I'll suck off my brother."
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 30, 2008, 12:20:49 PM
I guess because she was feeling in a transgressive mood and oral sex has always been a nice way to be transgressive (hell in some states it's still technically counted as sodomy) add a little incest to that and you've hit the transgression jackpot.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on June 30, 2008, 12:28:03 PM
So is it the act of sucking on things that you mean by transgressive.  Like a baby sucks on its mothers breasts?
She is very childish and she knows she can get away with it because of how beautiful she is.
But why does she jerk that Bobby guy off while staring at Hank the whole time?  Just cuz she can?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on June 30, 2008, 12:33:47 PM
Not the act per se but rather being open about it and even though people have always engaged in oral sex, it's often had an air of deviance to it depending upon social norms.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on June 30, 2008, 01:20:59 PM
She clearly wants Chinaski to react in some way. He doesn't react to her threats, he doesn't react to her getting another guy off.


maybe that is why he is attracted to crazies.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 11:52:32 AM
I'm ready to discuss
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 12:12:17 PM
13 more pages and I'm ready.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 10, 2008, 12:15:19 PM
I'll be with you presently.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 12:59:47 PM
Ok, I'm done and ready to discuss.

How much can you discuss about a blow job though.  It was nice reading it, but it wasn't very deep or anything.
I guess we can talk about what Chinaski's motivations are for wanting to fuck all these ladies, and what the ladies motivations are for wanting to fuck old, disgusting, grumpy men.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 03:38:16 PM
Many women find older men attractive.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 03:40:15 PM
Why though?

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 03:43:15 PM
Daddy Issues mostly. But they are also physically attractive, like...sophisticated provider hot
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 03:44:24 PM
like...sophisticated provider hot

so "Daddy Issues"?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 03:48:06 PM
sure.


they might just be attracted to his "raw sensuality" Most of these women are fans of his work, and, as we can tell, his work is quite sexual
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 03:52:31 PM
What?  There's no sex in this book.  Are we reading the same book?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 03:58:31 PM
What?  There's no sex in this book.  Are we reading the same book?

 :D
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 10, 2008, 04:58:32 PM
Not sure about the women but for Hank I think it's a reaction to the squalor in which he lives. Death is all around due to his various vices and the sort of characters he's likely to meet. And every so often (like in the case of Bill) he'll have somebody actually die.

Every sexual encounter in some ways reconnects him with a spark of vitality and makes life seem more livable and fundamentally real.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 05:07:33 PM
Well if you read is earlier works, he wasn't exactly a chick magnet. 
I think he is just getting what he wanted when he wasn't semi-famous.

We really should have read "Factotum" first.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 10, 2008, 05:09:23 PM
Oh yes there's always that element as well.

But he mentions at least once or twice the idea that as he gets older the women he sleeps with will get younger, i think this goes to the warding off death idea.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 05:12:17 PM
Well he definitely is aware of his alcoholism, and where it will eventually lead.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 10, 2008, 07:39:03 PM
Bah. You're both wrong.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 10, 2008, 10:58:50 PM
Care to expound on that statement?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 11, 2008, 04:58:36 AM
Incidentally this section was rather perturbing for me because it contains a bunch of info that tallies with myself. I'm the same height, have been the same weight and people do often tell me I have great legs.

Oh dear god don't let me be like Hank in a couple of decades  :speechless:
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 11, 2008, 05:55:20 AM
You don't want easy money and easy women when you're in your late 50's?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 11, 2008, 06:00:25 AM
Money sure, don't want to sound like Buddy Hackett but I like to put in a little work with my women. ;)



Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 11, 2008, 09:19:47 AM
But when I'm in my late 50's, if women are fighting over my genitals I would be a happy man.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 11, 2008, 12:27:10 PM
Let's just finish this fucker next, and discuss for a couple days.  Then move on to the next book.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 11, 2008, 12:30:52 PM
Sounds good, there's only about 60 or so pages left.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 11, 2008, 12:34:15 PM
mmm'k then.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 11, 2008, 02:50:18 PM
Bah. You're both wrong.


Care to expound on that statement?


I stared at this computer screen for 15 min trying to do just that.  So no.

Let's just finish this fucker next, and discuss for a couple days.  Then move on to the next book.


You two have certainly made a concensus without me, but I agree.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 12, 2008, 06:14:19 PM
I have not finished the book, but the musing on page 227-228 reminded me of something I wanted to talk about. BTA said there was not much to analyze, but I disagree. Take this section. After 200+ pages of machismo, Chinaski explains he could never write a fictionalized women, he wanted to get to know them and after he did, he discovered they have souls. Throughout this book there have been this philosophical moments that really give you an understanding about how Chinanski (and most likely Buckowski) views the world, and that is how I certainly get my wisdom. I don't live in a lanf of epiphanies. I experience and learn from life.

anyway, back to finsihing the book
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 13, 2008, 01:45:34 PM
O.K.,

Page 235:

Quote
I only got one bottle of wine for after dinner.  We drank it slowly, sitting up in her bed watching her giant t.v.  The first program was lousy.  The second was better.  It was about a sex pervert and a subnormal farmboy.  The pervert's head was transplanted onto the farmboy's body by a mad doctor and the body escaped with the two heads and ran about the countryside doing all sorts of horrible things.  It put me in a good mood.

Sounds like an MST3k movie.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 14, 2008, 05:07:16 AM
Pretty sure that's a genuine movie too.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 15, 2008, 04:32:01 PM
I is finished
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 15, 2008, 05:16:31 PM
I is not, but well done  :clap: :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 15, 2008, 08:53:30 PM
You get a gold star!
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 16, 2008, 05:30:32 AM
oh bite me you two!



and hurry up and finish!
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 22, 2008, 06:55:17 PM
Oh, and away we go!

I like Sara, she's a keeper.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 22, 2008, 07:06:07 PM
Why not?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 23, 2008, 05:46:31 AM
other than the fact that she waited to give him some poon, I don't see aything about her that makes her special.


Although, Instead of trying to killl him when he went with another woman, she dumped him.



odified to sound less annoyed. Cause I heart Tripe!  ;D
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 23, 2008, 05:48:10 AM
No need to be so angry. Is everything OK?

She actually made him reconsider his ways, which really were not all that healthy, now how lasting those changes of behavior are it's difficult to say but because of her influence he did start to make a few changes that might actually be good for him.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 23, 2008, 05:53:48 AM
But it was a very elementry question to what was a throwaway line.

Consequently I answered with as elementry a question in response.

The post after that (phrased with less annoyance) would have been a better question all along. :)
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 23, 2008, 05:56:38 AM
Personally, I think it was a throw away ending.


"Then I found the one I wanted to have an actual relationship with"


BORING! You dissapoint me Henry!
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 23, 2008, 05:58:00 AM
Well, there we go.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 23, 2008, 06:00:32 AM
again on our own. Down the only road we have ever known. like drifters we are born to walk alone
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 23, 2008, 06:02:51 AM
Is that a lyric?

And how would you have had it end?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 23, 2008, 06:09:31 AM
yea, from whitesnake




i don't know how I would have it end. i think I would have liked to see the first crazy chick come back (Lydia?). It just doesn't seem believeable to me that Henry would make this life altering decision, and when the life altering dec happens at the end of the novel is the audience supposed to believe that nothing interesting happened afterwards? To me, that seems way too close to "and Henry lived Happily ever after"
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 10:03:22 AM
I'm done now, and you're crazy.  That was not a happily ever after ending.  It was just another lie until there is another better lie.  I mean this relationship will last just as long as the others.  The only reason it is good now is because he finally got to have sex with her, and wants some more and is intrigued by how she carries herself.  Like he admits himself, it won't last.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 10:06:58 AM
Yes I think he's entering a moment of purity until his old evil spirit rises up again. Still I rather liked Sara of all the women in Hanks life throughout the book.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 10:08:33 AM
Yeah, cuz she was the only non-pathetic, hero-worshipping slut.  Plus she makes her own beds, which is cool.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 10:09:40 AM
And she ran a organic food store, I like organic food so kudos to her for that.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 10:24:22 AM
Why would the organic Turkey taste so much different from a regular turkey?  I guess it was just the way it was flavored.
So really he was pointing out the natures of these two types of women by comparing their culinary tastes. 
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 10:27:26 AM
OK I think Tammie was burned out of many things and needed more extreme experiences in order to register any sensation (in this case flavour).

Oh and also it's possible Tammie had no sense of smell left from prolonged nose candy use and so her sense of taste would have been almost nonexistant.

Sara on the otherhand was incredibly puritan and so any really spicy flavouring would seem dangerously polluted.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 10:31:53 AM
Plus Hank was a big fan of kissing, and her not giving in to sex was like very long foreplay.  He liked that on some level.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 10:35:04 AM
I'm telling you of all the girls in the book only Sara played it right.

Sara's the sort of girl I'd respond to if I were in Hank's position.

When she told him she wasn't going to help him out with his other women trouble was ace.

I imagine she doesn't turn up in any other book though.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 10:39:14 AM
A lot of the women didn't have anything to offer him artistically in return except for more fodder for his writing.  Sara on the other hand had some artistic skills.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 10:42:02 AM
Even with her slightly odd attachment to the mute Indian Holyman she still seemed more together than most of the other women. But it was just enough flakiness to appeal since the few other women Hank met who were more together bored him.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 29, 2008, 02:59:21 PM
Moving on to Kavalier and Clay............
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 03:12:11 PM
Aww you don't want to join in with how wonderful Sara is?

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 03:22:56 PM
I thought we were going to talk about the book more, but oh well.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 29, 2008, 03:27:27 PM
I'm done now, and you're crazy.  That was not a happily ever after ending.  It was just another lie until there is another better lie.  I mean this relationship will last just as long as the others.  The only reason it is good now is because he finally got to have sex with her, and wants some more and is intrigued by how she carries herself.  Like he admits himself, it won't last.


So, you guys think that the relationhsip will end sooner because Hank will go back to his old habits? I would prefer that, but why did he bother ending it when he did?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 29, 2008, 04:04:25 PM
Ok well why does Irving Welsh end Trainspotting where he does? In both the main character almost bellows "this is not a lasting change I'm going back to my old ways sooner or later" but they both end with what ostensibly is a new beginning.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 29, 2008, 04:11:36 PM
Yeah, I mean I think it was a great ending.  The only other way to end it would be to have him die while fucking, but he himself would have to die too so that wouldn't work since he writes from experience.  He got to live out his dream of having women desire him, and he still gets to be a selfish son-of-a-bitch.  If he wasn't famous he could still be a selfish bastard, but women wouldn't seek out his company.  Fame as advantages I guess.  This is the real American Dream:  to be a selfish as you can, and still make a living and get laid.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 30, 2008, 09:13:19 AM
I dpn't think Hank is selfish though. He gives these women everything, money, his time, his car, plane tickets.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 31, 2008, 10:13:39 AM
Good point, he's quite generous in a material way, emotionally however he's pretty shut off.

Not that he's alone in being like that in the book.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 31, 2008, 10:15:52 AM
But he gives money and emotions to women so that he can get what he wants, not simply because it is a nice thing to do.
Everything he does is in the end to satisfy a desire he has.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 31, 2008, 10:19:31 AM
doesn't everyone do that, though? Perhaps that is why his adventures with Women all suck--he doesn't know what it means to have a healthy adult relationship
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 31, 2008, 10:22:02 AM
Well yeah, everybody does it to some degree, but Hank has a serious problem with it.
They say the worst thing you can do to an artist is appreciate their work while they're alive.
It just feeds his narcissistic tendencies.

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 31, 2008, 10:26:58 AM
I disagree. Hank's "using" of these women's has less to do with any narccissism and more to do with stunted emotional psyche.


and IMO, artists aren't narcissists--they have some of the lowest self esteem out there, and they are fucked up because they chose to spend their time being rejected on a daily basis.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 31, 2008, 10:28:10 AM
Actually Narcissism is often a cover for poor self opinion, its sort of ersatz self actualization.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 31, 2008, 10:28:54 AM
Actually Narcissism is often a cover for poor self opinion, its sort of ersatz self actualization.

thus proving my point
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: bettertomorrowamy on July 31, 2008, 10:30:18 AM
Actually Narcissism is often a cover for poor self opinion, its sort of ersatz self actualization.

He does have a poor opinion of himself, except for when it comes to writing and even there he downgrades the importance of his writing when it really is all that he is.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 31, 2008, 10:31:22 AM
Actually Narcissism is often a cover for poor self opinion, its sort of ersatz self actualization.

thus proving my point

But also BTA's

Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 31, 2008, 11:14:30 AM
Actually Narcissism is often a cover for poor self opinion, its sort of ersatz self actualization.

thus proving my point

But also BTA's



i see........
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 31, 2008, 11:18:08 AM
....?
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: anais.jude on July 31, 2008, 11:18:47 AM
i concur. I see and understand BTA's point now.
Title: Re: Rifftrax Book Club: Book 2: Bukowski's "Women"
Post by: Tripe on July 31, 2008, 11:23:13 AM
Ah ok.

So final thoughts everyone?