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General Discussion => Books 'n Readin' => Topic started by: Doctor Who? on March 24, 2008, 06:34:41 PM

Title: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 24, 2008, 06:34:41 PM
What a great book.

I hope they republish the books that came right after it at some point because i want to see how he comes back to life.

There are a couple of things i would like to know.

1)Why is Supergirl hanging out with Lex Luther?

2)Why does she turn to JELLO when DoomsDay hits her?

3)Do we ever find out who or what DoomsDay was?

Overall this was one of the best story line I have ever read in a comic book.

10/10.
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: spider-prime on March 25, 2008, 12:06:44 AM
yes you find out everything to those answers, but it's a lot of books to buy lol

But right after is the funeral of Superman and then the reign of the supermen.

But that Supergirl is from another reality where Luthor made her to be like Lana Lang and superman, it's real form is that purple gooey body.
her world was destoryed so she stayed in the real DC universe.

and the real luthor seduces her to stay with him.

but doomsday's origin is all right here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doomsday_(comics)
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 25, 2008, 05:02:32 AM
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supergirl_%28Matrix%29

/\ there's the whole Supergirl gooey Matrix deal.  Pretty much in the 80's the editor of DC decided that Superman was going to be powered down and the REAL last son of Krypton, as in there could be no more Kryptonian heroes introduced.  So how do you have a Supergirl if she can't be Superman's cousin?  EASY!  Just have her be a clone created by Lex Luthor to be that universe's Lana Lang...  Yeah, weird I know.  Luckily everything seems to have been reset to the more familiar Silver age of DC comics (ironic the first Crisis destroyed it and now the new ones go back to it).

Luthor 'reformed' for that period I believe.  Something to do with cloning... yadda yadda yadda, Lex was a good guy for about 12 minutes.

There's some omnibus of Doomsday featuring most of his stories from the 90's and early 2000's somewhere, it features his origins too.  Pretty much he was a weapon created on Krypton (thousands of years before Supes was even born) to be the perfect evolutionary advancement.  They kept killing him and killing him only to revive him to force his evolution to go into overdrive.  Apparently he got pissed.  That's the short and sweet verision.

If you liked the comic I'd recommend the animated DVD that just came out, Superman Doomsday.  It's a nice short sweet summary of the death and return of Superman.
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 08:50:36 AM
Thanks for the info.

The movie is why I Bought  the book.

The book i got was a compilation of all the issues of Superman and justice league in which Superman battled Doomsday,it ended with his death.

Wow Superman's universe is even more confusing then Spiderman's,no wonder they cut so much out of the movies.

Still I have to say I just started reading Superman comics(the stors in my twon when i was a kid didn't carry any DC comics for some reason)and I am loving them.

I hope to get more soon.

As DC put out a compilation book with the issues of Superman that show what happened after he died,if so what is it called?

Thanks again.

Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 25, 2008, 10:19:17 AM
http://www.amazon.com/Death-Return-Superman-Omnibus/dp/1401215505/ref=pd_bbs_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206465319&sr=8-2

/\ that's the newest shindig of all the stuff collected into one.

http://www.amazon.com/Return-Superman-Dan-Jurgens/dp/1563891492/ref=pd_bbs_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206465319&sr=8-1

/\ here is the Reign of the Supermen story arc alone after his "passing"


The best thing to know about Superman is that everything that used to be "pre-crisis" that was deleted from this history is coming back in like the Crisis on Inf Earths never happened.  All that resetting and rebooting turned out to mean nothing because all the Superman history from the 60's is coming back in force (and should).  If you get confused you can always Wiki it or ask a DC pro (I try to be but it still confuses me at times).  It seems the past 20 some odd years have been spent trying to undo the first Crisis and all it's resets and re-introductions.  Silly DC!  No multiverse?!  I spit on you!
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 10:24:44 AM
Thanks alot!

So first they write something,then they delete it,then they bring it back again?

This is why they never just adapt a Comic book for the big screen and they always make their own stories.

I look forward to trying to figure it out.
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 25, 2008, 11:21:01 AM
Thanks alot!

So first they write something,then they delete it,then they bring it back again?

This is why they never just adapt a Comic book for the big screen and they always make their own stories.

I look forward to trying to figure it out.

Actually, they never adapt it straight from a source because they normally don't care about the source material in my opinion.  Not just for comics mind you, but everything.

WARNING: the following is really geeky.

To sum up several several years of comics in on simple error laden paragraph just waiting for the Simpson's comic book guy to step in:
DC (detective comics) didn't quite start out like Marvel Comics, i.e. one company to rule them all, but rather a conglomerate of comics.  Detective Comics themselves brought on Batman, Action Comics created Superman, Wonder Woman was under another label, Whiz Comics had Captain Marvel etc.  So as DC started to grow, they started to assimilate several other comic's properties under one house and universe.  Suddenly the Flash was hanging out with Supes, Wonder Woman's stupid invisible jet was flying over Gotham City.  Everyone was integrated and the DC universe was first truly formed.  Then Marvel came about and DC had its first contender.  Having to compete with not so perfect heroes, DC revamped several of it's main heroes from the big three (Supes, Bats and Wondy) to the others; Atom, Flash and Lantern to name a few.  A few examples: the original Atom was a guy with "super atomic punches", new Atom could shrink to the sub-atomic level, the first Green Lantern was empowered by a mystical ring whose weakness was wood... the new Lantern was part of an intergalactic police who's weakness is the color yellow (yeah not much better).  You had a new age Superman who's in his 20's during Kennedy's presidency and the original Superman who fought in WWII in his 20's.  Soon all these time and dimensional barriers are broken and duplicates are everywhere, 40 year old Supes is teaching 20 year old Supes lessons, yadda yadda, newer readers are confused. 

So in the 80's, when shoulder pads on superheroes was cool, they took initiative to clear up the mess.  Crisis on Infinite Earths was an epic story that erased all universes and characters who didn't matter or were duplicates.  But instead of just stopping there, the editorial staff took it upon themselves to rewrite most of the heroes to appeal to youths once more (because god knows the fads in the 80's are the ones that lasted, wait, where's my Swatch watch?).  All of the classic history was completely destroyed, Superman was depowered to mere superhuman levels that could make him potentially be beaten by Spider-man, Supergirl was a gooey matrix, Brainiac the alien supercomputer was a psychic straight from the circus...  So fast forward to now.  I've gotten fatter.  Much fatter.  And DC has decided the huge overhaul wasn't necessary.  Multiple universes, classic DC history and characters are all back, most of the duplicates and confusion is still left behind.  End of my long and unnecessary story.
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 11:38:26 AM
Wow,thanks alot for that.

That made things much clearer,I think :-\

So please tell me that today SuperGirl is not still goo.

She isn't my favorite character but turning her into goo seems like on of the dumbest things ever.

Also I am surprised Lex was about to stay good longer then half an issue.

So can anyone tell me if the new DC comics are better then the ones Marvel is putting out right now?

What I want to know is if they are waisting their time on stupid crossovers and breaking up characters who are married or not even bothering to have the heroes fight villains any more.

If DC isn't doing that kind of stuff I may start picking up comics again.

Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 25, 2008, 12:29:11 PM
Supergirl is now Kara Zor-El, cousin to Superman from Krypton, the one we all know and love.  No more Matrix goo, although she does exist in some form or another I've read.

As far as preference, I go by writer, not company.  There are some very VERY good Marvel stories out there right now believe it or not.  Anything written by Ed Brubaker is golden it seems, his Daredevil, Captain America and Iron Fist are great.  Some of Bendis' Avengers books are really good, and some fall flat.  Sadly, Spider-man is suffering from the I SUCK HORRIBLY bug because of One More Day.

Geoff Johns is a god at DC, he like Brubaker could crap on paper and make a better story than most.  His Superman and Green Lantern stories are golden.  Grant Morrison is another one of those hit or miss writers.  His All Star Superman is filled with so much greatness it redefines the character, his Batman run has left me a little more than stale though.

Just find a book you like and stick with it.  I'd recommend anything by Brubaker and Johns, but Millar, Bendis, Morrison, and Ellis are good writers who have hit and miss streaks like anyone else.  Like Mark Millar's Ultimates was great, his Civil War crashed at the end, Grant Morrison has great ideas for Superman but can't implement any of his Batman ideas right etc.
Title: Re: I just baught The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 12:41:59 PM
Thanks.

Those all sound great.

I have to get to a comic shop soon.

Well i am glad to hear that Captain America has had a good run.

It seems that between civil war and one more day my favorite Superhero isn't going to stop sucking any time soon :speechless:

Glad to hear there are still some good comics out there.

Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: RoninFox on March 25, 2008, 05:20:38 PM
I preferred the movie to the comics when it came to the death/rebirth of Superman personally, but the comics did have their good moments.  The lead-up to the Superman-Doomsday battle in Metropolis was the best part, the Justice League throwing everything they had at this thing that just won't be stopped, building the tension to incredible heights...for me it was the aftermath that kind of killed it though.  The scope of the tragedy was well done, the way they showed the effects of Superman's death on the world and everything, but when it came to the various Supermen of varying degrees of fakeyness I just started to roll my eyes.  That's when it seemed less like a powerful story and more like a publicity stunt to me.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 06:32:54 PM
Well I haven't read that part so i can comment but so far I am liking the comic even more then the movie,and I liked the movie a lot.

You are right it was great having Doomsday take out the whole Justice League and he did it with one arm tied behind his back,i mean what a way to build tension.

from what I understand the reason DC did this was just because they had to put off the wedding(They were not allowed to do it before Louis and Clark did)and they didn't have any other ideas that would hold it off for three or more years.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: RoninFox on March 25, 2008, 06:47:44 PM
My advice for reading the rest of the story arc...keep a scorecard handy
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 06:57:24 PM
You mean like I had to do the first time i watch I Claudius?
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: RoninFox on March 25, 2008, 07:04:17 PM
Exactly.  And fill it out in pencil, you'll be erasing now and then.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 25, 2008, 07:20:41 PM
I know the drill.

By the way when Did Louis Lane become a redhead?
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: mrbasehart on March 26, 2008, 11:01:58 AM
I have a hardcover novelization of the entire saga and it's pretty decent.  I think Roger Stern wrote it. 
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 26, 2008, 07:46:19 PM
That sounds like something I will have to check out.

Sorry for all the questions it's just that the DC comics I had read were from the Golden and Silver ages and it came as quite a shock to me how much things had changed.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: mrbasehart on March 26, 2008, 09:19:48 PM
I think they also did a novelization of the "breaking of Batman" saga that came out around the same time as Death of Superman.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 27, 2008, 08:51:28 AM
How do you "brake" Batman?
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Pak-Man on March 27, 2008, 08:53:06 AM
How do you "brake" Batman?
A question many of us Riff-Writers asked during the Batman and Robin project. :^)
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: esoobaC .T bocaJ on March 27, 2008, 09:01:33 AM
How do you "brake" Batman?
A question many of us Riff-Writers asked during the Batman and Robin project. :^)
:rimshot:
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: James of LinHood on March 27, 2008, 09:09:38 AM
How do you "brake" Batman?

mrbasehart is talking about this series:

Prelude:

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Sword-Azrael-Prelude-Knightfall/dp/156389100X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Sword-Azrael-Prelude-Knightfall/dp/156389100X/ref=pd_sim_b_title_1)

Vol 1:

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-One-Broken/dp/1563891425/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206633816&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-One-Broken/dp/1563891425/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206633816&sr=1-1)

Vol 2:

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-Rules-Night/dp/1563891484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206634037&sr=1-1 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-Rules-Night/dp/1563891484/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206634037&sr=1-1)

Vol 3:

http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-Three-KnightsEnd/dp/1563891913/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206633816&sr=1-2 (http://www.amazon.com/Batman-Knightfall-Part-Three-KnightsEnd/dp/1563891913/ref=pd_bbs_sr_2?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206633816&sr=1-2)
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 27, 2008, 10:10:21 AM
OK thanks.

Boy there is a lot of good stuff to read in the DC universe.

Yesterday I had to run to Dover and I pick up for $4 a 1974 issue of Detective Comics that had a Batman story called Night of the Stalker that was very good,some of the other stories where hit and miss but the Batman stuff was all good.

I am becoming a big time DC fan.

By the way does anyone know why and when National Comics changed it's name to DC?

I just got a job today so I am going to have some real spending money and I am going to start collecting DC comics.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 27, 2008, 10:17:30 AM
OK thanks.

Boy there is a lot of good stuff to read in the DC universe.

Yesterday I had to run to Dover and I pick up for $4 a 1974 issue of Detective Comics that had a Batman story called Night of the Stalker that was very good,some of the other stories where hit and miss but the Batman stuff was all good.

I am becoming a big time DC fan.

By the way does anyone know why and when National Comics changed it's name to DC?

I just got a job today so I am going to have some real spending money and I am going to start collecting DC comics.

Not sure about the answer to your question but if you don't mind I've got a few good books to jump in to.  All-Star Superman (NOT Batman) is great, Green Lantern and JUSTICE are great starting points for DC.  Little continuity and self contained stories (takeTHAT stupid COUNTDOWN).
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 27, 2008, 10:20:42 AM
Thanks i will be checking those out in a couple of weeks when I get my first paycheck.

Thanks again for all your help.

I really want to give Green Lantern a try because it seems really cool.

I would say the people behind Death of Superman did a good job because before this i was only a fan of the movies,cartoons,and some of the golden and silver age stuff but they have made me a fan of the comics too.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 27, 2008, 10:22:08 AM
I would say the people behind Death of Superman did a good job because before this i was only a fan of the movies,cartoons,and some of the golden and silver age stuff but they have made me a fan of the comics too.

If you like Silver age and golden age Superman you have to BY LAW get All-star Superman lol.  It's by far the best Superman out there, it even beats several classic stories in my book.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 27, 2008, 10:26:52 AM
Alright it is now number one on my to buy list.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on March 27, 2008, 12:25:20 PM
http://www.amazon.com/All-Star-Superman-Vol-1/dp/1401209149/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1206645855&sr=8-1

Here's the trade but if you just want a sample issue number 6 is the best and it's a self-contained story.  Hope you like it!
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: Doctor Who? on March 27, 2008, 12:27:05 PM
Thanks alot.

You have been a big help.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: gbeenie on March 29, 2008, 03:22:39 PM
zoom, are you saying you don't like All-Star Batman and Robin, The Boy Wonder?
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on April 07, 2008, 06:39:24 AM
zoom, are you saying you don't like All-Star Batman and Robin, The Boy Wonder?

I know it's blasphemy to dislike any Batman related Frank Miller stuff, but I have to be honest, I'm not diggin' All Star Bats.  I LOVE every single bit of Miller Bat lore from Dark Knight to Year One, but All Star just seems like a parody of them.  It's like Miller's trying to out gritty/noir himself.  The "I'm the Goddamned Batman" line was what did it for me.  Combined with the 'let's put Robin in a cave full of rats the first night after his parents death' just makes me think Miller is joking or something.  I did have a slight fondness of his Joker issue, but a lot of the issues are more miss than hit.  I kinda liked the Hal Jordan issue as I found it funny but somewhat disrespectful to Hal at the same time.  Miller tends to treat him more like an idiot than a hotheaded test pilot, but it is Miller's universe so he can do as he pleases to a certain extent.  So overall I've liked some of All Star Bats, but there's more to dislike for me.  I actually like Miller's takes on the other heroes surrounding Batman more than his take on Batman.  Him completely disrespecting Grayson and Alfred just doesn't feel like Bruce Wayne to me and puts me a little off.

It's all just my opinion, it's just that I was SO excited for this All Star line up I had a huge let down with All Star Batman.  I was looking much more forward for Miller's Batman than Morrison's Superman and I ended up falling in love with Morrison's more.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: gbeenie on April 08, 2008, 12:43:39 PM
Have you read issue #9? I was kind of wondering where the book was going, myself, until I read that issue. Now I understand just what Miller was going for; he may have played his hand slowly, but seeing his cards now makes the book more than worthwhile for me.

Here's a hint: having Robin around changes Batman.


p.s. None of this is to diminish All Star Superman, which IS pretty incredibly brilliant.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: zoom on April 09, 2008, 06:14:24 AM
Have you read issue #9? I was kind of wondering where the book was going, myself, until I read that issue. Now I understand just what Miller was going for; he may have played his hand slowly, but seeing his cards now makes the book more than worthwhile for me.

Here's a hint: having Robin around changes Batman.


p.s. None of this is to diminish All Star Superman, which IS pretty incredibly brilliant.

I have to admit, I've read it and can't remember it in it's entirety but I do recall it being one of my favorites other than the Joker issue of the series.  I remember Batman and Robin going to the graveyard and did get the sense that Batman is taking on Robin to try to bring himself back to reality or at least get some sort of emotional feeling back.  I've got to hand it to Frank Miller, he does have a love and knowledge of comics obviously.  Upon taking on Robin in the 1940's, the Batman titles did take on a lighter tone, which is what I think Miller is alluding to subtly .  I think that's where my problem with All Star Batman is (I'm not trying to bash it, just state my opinion), Frank Miller seems to be doing more of a commentary on the heroes; rather than writing with or for the heroes, he seems to be writing on the heroes and their history.  I think that's why I kind of have a love hate with the issue, it feels part history lesson of comics, part parody.  I love the all American hero version of Supes, as that's what Superman was during WWII, a big Nazi fighting American bong selling hero.  I love the jokes about Hal making stupid constructs with is ring like hotdogs and giant boxing gloves, why the hell would a hotshot test pilot make those?  I love Wonder Woman's attitude towards Batman.  It just feels like Miller is looking at this title from the outside rather than placing himself in it.  With that said, I'm going to pick up the issues again and re-read them as I'll take any excuse to read any comic lol.

Not trying to bash the All Star Batman, it's just I expected a bit more I guess.  I do like certain things about it, like how it's following Dick Grayson (which is surprisingly original come to think of it), the commentaries and certain moments, it's just that those moments don't outshine the bad for me.

Morrison somehow managed to bring back the goofy sci-fi of the silver age.  Superman's not Bryne-depowered, he's not having to deal with his classic rogues on a near constant basis, and the story takes place well towards the end of Superman's career.  I love Geoff Johns, but even his current Superman arc pales in comparison to Morrison's, and I'm not even a huge fan of Morrison.  I was just so surprised and taken back by it.
Title: Re: I just bought The Death of Superman...
Post by: mlcorcoran on April 14, 2008, 11:42:06 AM
All-Star sucks. In the 3 years since it debuted they've managed to publish 10 issues of crap.

Frank Miller should never be allowed to write a Batman story ever again. DKR and Year One are classics, but 20 years later he writes DKR2 and butchers it.

The DC and Marvel stories Frank wrote in the 80s were all amazing. Batman, Daredevil, you name it.

His original material is awesome too. Sin City, Ronin, 300, all awesome.

But when he came back to Batman in the 2000s, he apparently still had Sin City on the brain, because his interpretation of Batman is just Marv in a Batman costume, which is to say it's not truly Batman at all.