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RiffTrax Discussion => Individual RiffTrax Discussion => Star Trek Generations => Topic started by: Conor on July 03, 2007, 02:27:02 PM

Title: Nexus Logic
Post by: Conor on July 03, 2007, 02:27:02 PM
You need an entire thread to point out the logical flaws of the movie.  For example, just because Picard left the Nexus with Kirk, how did that effect Saron?  He had achieved his goal and gotten back to the Nexus.  If Kirk and Picard left, why would that effect him?  In that case, every time someone left the Nexus and went back to a time before you entered the Nexus, it would remove you from the Nexus (at least, when that person leaving was the central figure in a movie narrative.)

Obviously, stupid situations like this arrive in any time travel movie, and you shouldn't pick things apart, etc, etc.  But what about it bothered you?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Big Blonde on July 03, 2007, 02:36:04 PM
I'm wondering about Whoopi Goldberg character's echo in the Nexus. Does that also mean that Picard and Kirk will leave imprints in the nexus?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Minnesota on July 03, 2007, 02:41:29 PM
So the entire enterprise crashed on the same planet as Picard and the bad guy ... umm why weren't they absorbed into the nexus too?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 02:44:59 PM
After trying to sort it out, I believe that whole fiasco should have shattered the Universe, as I have said in another thread.
Think this one through:
Assumably, both Kirk, Picard, and Soran went into the Nexus.
Picard and Kirk came out, leaving Soran inside while they attempted to change history.
Somehow, there is only one Picard at this point, instead of the two who should have been there.
They sucseed in stoppping Soran, and Soran doesn't go into the Nexus.
One Picard goes back home, one Kirk dies, and one Soran dies.

Questions:
Where is Picard #1?
Where is Soran at this point? At least one is in pieces, but is there still one in the Nexus?
If there isn't a Soran in the Nexus, because Picard prevented both Soran and himself from entering it, why does he remember/live with the ramifications of his time in the Nexus?
Would his stopping himself from entering the Nexus stop him from stopping himself from entering the Nexus?

My conclusion: Picard should have caused a time loop, which would have resulted in the universe ripping in half, releasing energy that would take out several surrounding dimensions at the existencial level. Meanwhile, Picard #2 escaped, and is now sipping martinis in the Mirror Universe.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 02:45:46 PM
Also, they landed on the inhabited planet, I though, not the nexus intersect planet.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: David on July 03, 2007, 02:46:00 PM
And why weren't there two Picards when he exited the Nexus? It's like he took over the mind of his previous self. So why did Kirk get to bring his whole body with him?

I'm wondering about Whoopi Goldberg character's echo in the Nexus. Does that also mean that Picard and Kirk will leave imprints in the nexus?

Of course. So they can Bring Back Kirk.
There have been countless fanfics about this, one by Shatner himself if I recall correctly.

So the entire enterprise crashed on the same planet as Picard and the bad guy ... umm why weren't they absorbed into the nexus too?

They crashed on the fourth planet. Picard and Sauron were on the third.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 03, 2007, 03:16:13 PM
The thing that gets me is that if it's your desire to leave the Nexus, wouldn't the Nexus fake it for you and make you think you've left the Nexus?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 03:17:53 PM
Hey, good point! Maybe the later seasons of Star Trek Next Generation actually take place in the Nexus!
SPOOOOOKKKKKYYYYYYYYY!
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Minnesota on July 03, 2007, 03:22:43 PM
So the entire enterprise crashed on the same planet as Picard and the bad guy ... umm why weren't they absorbed into the nexus too?

They crashed on the fourth planet. Picard and Sauron were on the third.

Ahh, I see. Well all the other Nexus logic in the film was terrible ;D

How was it that Kirk spent 30 years on the nexus without any recollection of the previous 30 years ... did the same thing happen to Picard? Say for instance he were to leave the nexus without time traveling, would he be living in the future like Kirk (if he would've survived at least ;) )
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 03:37:25 PM
Well, the whole thing with the Nexus was that time held no meaning. If he had wanted to, Picard could have met up with Kirk 30 years in, but he chose to meet with him, (with Whoopie's guiding,) a few seconds after his arrival.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Douglin on July 03, 2007, 04:37:58 PM
I'm going to say that it's all down to quantum physics...and reversing the polarity....and magnets...

I actually listened to the commentary for this, because it had BSG uber-producer Ron Moore on it, and they're pretty brutally honest about where they messed up and what they were forced to do by the executives and the fact that they made mistakes.

On the Nexus they say that it doesn't make much sense and really Picard and Kirk should go back in time a few more days and catch Soran when he's on the toilet or something(they also say how the terminator should have done the same thing)


Also..did Whoppi and Soran have to live the 80 years to get from the prologue to the main part of the film?  I don't know if I missed something there...
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: David on July 03, 2007, 04:40:36 PM
Oh yeah, Guinan had some crazy time senses on top of that, didn't she? Like, in one episode she knew that time had been altered or something.
She really reminded me of the Oracle from the Matrix.

Also..did Whoppi and Soran have to live the 80 years to get from the prologue to the main part of the film?  I don't know if I missed something there...

I'm pretty sure they're the same species, a species with crazy long life spans. In another episode we find out she had been on Earth in the 19th century (without time travel). She was chumming with Mark Twain.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Conor on July 03, 2007, 04:46:23 PM
http://www.mjyoung.net/time/index.htm (http://www.mjyoung.net/time/index.htm)

This website delves into time travel issues in every movie.  It tries to sort out where they erred and see how or if they could fix their logic.  I don't know if it mentions what I wrote about earlier, I read it a while ago.  They have lots of other movies, pretty much anything with time travel in it.

Here's another thing that confounded me:  Kirk and Picard are battling Soran, the second time around.  But Soran has blown up the bridge, and the guys look to be in trouble.  Why not just let him blow up the planet, go back into the Nexus, and then come back out and start again?  Sort of use it like a video game reset button until something goes your way?  Maybe after trying and failing a couple times, they would get the brighter idea to go back and stop him at a more opportune time. 

Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 04:55:22 PM
Yeah, the potential restart angle took away from the tention of the fight.
"It sure would be inconvienent if we don't win this fight!"
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 03, 2007, 05:03:34 PM
In fact, come to think of it, they could have brought in an army of Picards and Kirks if they did things right!
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Principal_Skin-trade on July 03, 2007, 06:21:28 PM
In fact, come to think of it, they could have brought in an army of Picards and Kirks if they did things right!
That would have been cool! It could have been Star Trek: Attack of the clown penises
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: HeartPoundinVeinsCloggin on July 03, 2007, 09:54:02 PM
In addition to the damn thing not making any sense, what bothers me most about the whole nexus B.S. is that every time I hear it I think of Nexxus, the cheesy hair care products line. Does that happen to anyone else? The movie kind of loses the effect when the bad guy wants to get back into the Clairol. When Kirk's riding horses and frying eggs in the ol' Head & Shoulders. Come on nexus? Ribbon?? Please tell me there's more to it than that.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 04, 2007, 05:12:51 AM
Look, stop whining; they were originally going to call it the Herbal Essence, but they figured someone would accuse them of stealing the name from shampoo, so they changed it to a more obscure brand. There's no pleasing some people.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: markusdragon on July 04, 2007, 06:47:13 AM
How come destroying a planet's sun is instantly noticable from the planet? Shouldn't sunlight take several minutes to reach the third planet in a system?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 04, 2007, 06:51:13 AM
In the Star Wars Universe, planets are the same distance from the sun as they are in 3rd grade textbook charts.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Principal_Skin-trade on July 04, 2007, 11:53:32 AM
How come destroying a planet's sun is instantly noticable from the planet? Shouldn't sunlight take several minutes to reach the third planet in a system?
Light travels @ 186,000 miles per second... assuming the planet is about 93 million miles from the sun, then yes you are right, it would take several minutes, about 8 minutes by my calculations.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Principal_Skin-trade on July 05, 2007, 03:08:58 PM
Let's face it... I guess in the future, there are no physics.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Rude on July 05, 2007, 03:14:32 PM
Quote from: Just Some Guy
The thing that gets me is that if it's your desire to leave the Nexus, wouldn't the Nexus fake it for you and make you think you've left the Nexus?

Game over. This answers everything.

-Rude
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: David on July 06, 2007, 04:34:15 AM
How come destroying a planet's sun is instantly noticable from the planet? Shouldn't sunlight take several minutes to reach the third planet in a system?
Light travels @ 186,000 miles per second... assuming the planet is about 93 million miles from the sun, then yes you are right, it would take several minutes, about 8 minutes by my calculations.

So that bottle rocket the Dark Lord  sent to zap the sun must've had a little warp drive or Picard would've been staring open mouth at the sky for eight minutes.  Even Kirk didn't take that long to die.


Well sure it would have to have a warp drive to get there that fast, but he's talking about the light from the destroyed sun going back to the planet... that can't go at warp. Still we can just chalk that up to those 8 minutes being edited out; it's perhaps the smallest plothole in the movie.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 06, 2007, 05:20:18 AM
The light appeared to go super-luminal velocities due to the energy flux resulting from a stable warp drive alligning it's statman's complex with the bomb's zero-point energy output.

(Making Trek science work for YOU!)
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: HeartPoundinVeinsCloggin on July 06, 2007, 08:23:56 AM
Look, stop whining; they were originally going to call it the Herbal Essence, but they figured someone would accuse them of stealing the name from shampoo, so they changed it to a more obscure brand. There's no pleasing some people.

"That's just what Jesus said, sir!"
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Tony Farms AKA Puma Man on July 06, 2007, 09:48:28 AM
People, the answer to all the Nexus plot holes is simple:

Midichlorians.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 06, 2007, 10:21:26 AM
Doh! Of COURSE!
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: estwald on July 08, 2007, 09:47:51 AM
The thing that bothers me most is WHY (if Picard can exit the nexus at any point in space and time he wants) DOES HE GO BACK TO THE MOUNTAINTOP WITH SORAN? Couldn't he have gone back a week earlier and then just picked up Soran at the observatory? No mess, no fuss?

And why can't Soron just fly a ship into the nexus? Yes, Picard points out that ships that do this are destroyed, but isn't that how Soran entered the Nexus originally? By having his ship caught in it?

Which Whoopi does Picard encounter in the Nexus? Is this a Whoopi generated entirely from Picard's imagination? Is it the original Whoopi who was in the nexus, and who therefore wouldn't know Picard, or is it the real Whoopi who maintains some kind of cosmic connection with the nexus?

It just don't make no sense, is all.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: RVR II on July 08, 2007, 09:54:17 AM
It's the NEXUS!
Time has No Meaning There. ;D
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: ManosCK on July 08, 2007, 11:44:19 AM
Well, Uncle Rick had said at the time, when asked why the Guardian of Forever wasn't used, he called it a "cheap plot device." 

Yep, that "cheap plot device" from arguably the most popular episode of the original series, which also won a Hugo award and was penned by one of the greatest SF writers of all time.

His answer: to come up with a cheesy way to do pretty much the same thing, albeit with no "rules."  Because hey, when you're killing off a legend, you may as well ignore all the good stuff that came before (that wasn't created on your watch).

I've purchased the riff, but haven't had the chance to watch it with the film yet.  I can't wait.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: SharpMonkey on July 08, 2007, 04:16:12 PM
And why can't Soron just fly a ship into the nexus? Yes, Picard points out that ships that do this are destroyed, but isn't that how Soran entered the Nexus originally? By having his ship caught in it?

 :clap:
I remember thinking to myself "At what point in Soran's career as a mad scientist did blowing up a sun and destroying a handful of planets sound easier than building a very tall ladder?". 
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Just Some Guy on July 09, 2007, 11:45:17 AM
And while I'm not pro-appeasing star destroying mad scientists you would think it would be much easier to end this when the plan was discovered.  All Picard had to do was say "Hey Soran, no need to destroy the star; I'll give you a shuttle craft!  We go through them like potato chips anyway."

Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Junkyard on July 09, 2007, 12:26:03 PM
Also, how much extra work would it have been to direct the ribbon through the habitated planet, so everybody could be happy, instead of dead?
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: RVR II on July 09, 2007, 12:29:46 PM
Well wouldn't That 've just made for the Happiest of endings..
Like seeing a puppy running..
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/rvr2/puppy.gif)
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: J-Proof on July 11, 2007, 10:29:02 AM
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think the most obvious flaw in the plot, given that the Nexus will bring you back to whatever time you want to be, is that Picard goes back to like, five minutes before the universe goes kablowee..... Hell, transport back an hour, three hours -- or even go back several years and assassinate Soran before any of this even happens.......
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Bob on July 11, 2007, 04:17:30 PM
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think the most obvious flaw in the plot, given that the Nexus will bring you back to whatever time you want to be, is that Picard goes back to like, five minutes before the universe goes kablowee..... Hell, transport back an hour, three hours -- or even go back several years and assassinate Soran before any of this even happens.......

Or before his nephew gets killed.   DUH Picard.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Quicksilver on July 11, 2007, 06:39:44 PM
being what a heated debate matters of space and time create, you'd think the writers could have thought of something slightly more logical.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Tony Farms AKA Puma Man on July 11, 2007, 08:16:55 PM
I didn't read all of the posts in this thread, but I think the most obvious flaw in the plot, given that the Nexus will bring you back to whatever time you want to be, is that Picard goes back to like, five minutes before the universe goes kablowee..... Hell, transport back an hour, three hours -- or even go back several years and assassinate Soran before any of this even happens.......

Or before his nephew gets killed.   DUH Picard.

Or back when he had hair.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Rude on July 11, 2007, 08:25:02 PM
Quote from: Tony Farms AKA Puma Man
Or back when he had hair.

Picard never had hair... Geez~

-Rude
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Principal_Skin-trade on July 12, 2007, 12:18:26 AM
Picard never had hair... Geez~
-Rude
Actually, Picard did have hair when he was a youngster at Starfleet Academy... see the episode "Tapestry".
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Tripe on July 12, 2007, 05:45:21 AM
Picard never had hair... Geez~
-Rude
Actually, Picard did have hair when he was a youngster at Starfleet Academy... see the episode "Tapestry".

Here he is relaxing with a fellow cadet prior to final exams ;)
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/9/9e/Stewart_tranchell.jpg)
Not just hair but a beard as well.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Rude on July 12, 2007, 08:36:47 AM
Quote from: Principal_Skin-trade
Actually, Picard did have hair when he was a youngster at Starfleet Academy... see the episode "Tapestry".
Quote from: TripeHoundRedux
Not just hair but a beard as well.

Lies, Lies, Lies! I'll never believe you! Picard was always old, distinguished and bald! ALWAYS!

La, la,la... I can't hear you.
La, la, la... filthy liars.


-Rude

PS- How funny that the episode featuring Picard with hair was called "Tapestry"
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Tripe on July 12, 2007, 08:41:02 AM
Quote from: Principal_Skin-trade
Actually, Picard did have hair when he was a youngster at Starfleet Academy... see the episode "Tapestry".
PS- How funny that the episode featuring Picard with hair was called "Tapestry"

I think it was originally going to be called Rug
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Principal_Skin-trade on July 12, 2007, 10:37:19 AM
I think it was originally going to be called Rug
Well in this case, the word "Tapestry" was meant to be used as a metaphor. So calling it "Rug" would have been just plain wrong
because as far as I know, nobody uses the word "Rug" as a metaphor for anything at all, except for maybe the expression, "Hocking
a rugie,", but that is stretching the imagination a little methinks.
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: Tripe on July 12, 2007, 11:48:12 AM
I think it was originally going to be called Rug
Well in this case, the word "Tapestry" was meant to be used as a metaphor. So calling it "Rug" would have been just plain wrong
because as far as I know, nobody uses the word "Rug" as a metaphor for anything at all, except for maybe the expression, "Hocking
a rugie,", but that is stretching the imagination a little methinks.

Or possibly I was riffing on the use of the term "Rug" for a wig ;)
Title: Re: Nexus Logic
Post by: tannerwaterbury on August 27, 2008, 05:13:01 AM
Oh, all this technobabble is hurting my head, i shouldnt of come to this board.