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General Discussion => Movie Talk => Topic started by: Pak-Man on April 24, 2019, 09:35:24 AM

Title: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on April 24, 2019, 09:35:24 AM
This is the thread for people who have seen Avengers: Endgame and want to discuss it with others who have also seen it. Or for people who don't care about spoilers. The early screenings start tomorrow, but I'm posting this today for those people who click a new thread without reading the topic first. This is your chance to remind yourself not to click this thread again until you've seen it. There are no spoilers in this first post. You're safe here. But beyond this point is a sea of posts that may contain spoilers. Here are some images that should take up a lot of space so that you don't see any spoilers if you find yourself here by accident:

(https://img.eskimotv.net/img/2019/04/EndgameLetter.jpg)
(https://pics.me.me/this-is-strange-doctor-strange-he-saw-endgame-using-the-48016961.png)
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: goflyblind on April 25, 2019, 07:33:21 AM
i liked it. my bladder did not. though, having a cold open rather than post-credit scenes was a nice change.

just because i'm only the second post, i'm gonna tag the rest.

Spoiler (click to show/hide)
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 25, 2019, 09:43:08 PM
I loved it. Incredible. It was really great to see Pepper Potts get her own iron "man" suit. Then there was Cap getting Mjolnir, Black Widow dying, "Avengers Assemble"... OMG between it all it was almost too much for my little old heart to take. Very emotional in the final scenes. I did NOT expect Iron Man to die, so that spoiler I saw the other day was thankfully... fake. I'm also grateful that Captain Marvel had a very key role in the events of the film. Really, everybody did. I know this is going to sound kind of hokey but this is the kind of movie I live for.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Kete on April 25, 2019, 11:10:32 PM
I'm sure there will be debates about how to optimize the trips for the stones.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Kete on April 26, 2019, 06:43:30 AM
I'm sad about a lot of things, but I'm mostly sad that this seems to be the end of an era.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on April 26, 2019, 07:33:45 AM
Loved it too. I think there are sooo many great scenes. You have the standout stuff like Cap wielding Mjolnir, the whole last battle, all the epic deaths. But it's also really, really funny. So many great lines, and I'm forgetting a ton. From Ant-Man alone the whole "Someone peed in my suit" part. "Back To the Future is bs!?!" The cell phone bit with Hulk and the fans. I need to watch it again just so I can remember them all.

It was really great to see Pepper Potts get her own iron "man" suit.
Just wanted to point out this is comic accurate too. She's called Rescue. Pretty obscure, but I remember when Iron Man 3 came out that there were hopes of her becoming Rescue. Man, did they deliver.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 26, 2019, 08:22:04 AM
The funeral scene was absolutely beautiful. For a while I was worried Captain Marvel was only in the first 20 minutes of the movie. Then when she came back and did her thing, totally laying waste to Thanos's ship, OMG that was effing glorious! I felt bad for poor Nebula. I mean that poor woman just can't catch a break.

There was one thing I thought about and I was like they established this one thing so it could work a little later, and that was that apparently Thanos can easily take a stone out of the Gauntlet and use it. Then later we saw Thanos was going to do his snap again and turns out Tony took all the gems out of the gauntlet already. THIS is how you do poetry in movies. You have Tony use the stones to snap Thanos and all his army out of existence.

I was a little apprehensive for a while about the whole time travel thing. It's like while you're watching a movie you're not sure where things are going and that had me a little discombobulated, but after I saw it all come together I was fine with it.

I'm so happy Cap got to go back to be with Peggy Carter. That was such a beautiful aspect of the movie. It was a perfect way to end Cap's story. I'm guessing now Sam is the new Captain America, right? 

There is just so much to talk about that I'm honestly still pretty emotionally overwhelmed by it all right now.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: goflyblind on April 26, 2019, 11:57:32 AM
i was just reminded of my favourite little moment: professor hulk in the battle of new york. *sigh* grr. *lightly smash* rawr.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 26, 2019, 04:37:19 PM
Also, seeing as how they brought back absolutely everyone for the climax, I was pretty thrilled. It was also awesome to see Spiderman activate "insta-kill" on his spider suit... LOVED that. When I heard Sam say "on your left", I got a chill down my spine and I was like HOLY EFFING SHIT it's about to get real here! The best part was that I never expected that all the Avengers would return that quickly... hell I didn't expect to see their faces at all in this movie except maybe in the last 5 minutes. Thankfully, that wasn't the case. The Russos really know how to build a scene effectively and use all their characters for some important, dramatic purpose.

I've seen one or two critics complaining about plot holes. Honestly, there's two things I have to say about that. For one, the story was so good that I can overlook plot holes. For two, if you really think about it, there might be a reason for this or that happening. The prime example I can think of is at the end when Peter goes back to school and Ned is there. Some people might be like "What, five years later Ned is still in High School?". Okay, for one, half the goddamn world disappeared, and that may also mean Ned and some of Peter's friends. If that's not satisfactory I would also propose that maybe with half the world gone the governments and therefore school systems are still trying to recover. So I guess I'm trying to say school was officially out for five years. I know that doesn't have the same ring to it as Alice Cooper's "School's out", but there you are.

I don't know why I didn't think of this until now but... now that I think of it Thanos died twice in this movie... because I guess they knew once wouldn't be enough.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on April 27, 2019, 05:04:42 PM
What a conclusion! I think every one of the 21 preceding movies had a role to play in this one. Everything fell into place beautifully, and the catharsis from watching all of the returning heroes enter the fray was immense.

I'm a sucker for a good time travel story, and it was nice to see it carefully deployed here in a way that won't leave it to be a deus ex machina in future Marvel movies.

Gamora's fate was kind of nebulous (as it were). They never showed her getting snapped, but she wasn't in the Milano when Star Lord and Thor were locking horns.

Gonna go for the No-Prize with the 2 plot holes that have been mentioned here.

I think Ned got snapped, so he went through the same 5-year jump that Peter did. So they're both still in high school, but there's going to be a mixture of people who got snapped going back to school, and people who didn't who are already in college.

I think the Super Serum slows Cap's aging, but he just added another 50 years to the tally. When you consider the fact that he's gotta be going on 140, he still looks pretty good.

At the end, I was like, "OK. He's not gonna tell us the girl was Peggy Carter, but we know. Please don't show us, I'm all out of emotional- Crud. They're showing us the dance."

Don't think I've ever cried as many bittersweet tears at a movie as I did during this one.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 27, 2019, 08:02:50 PM
Well in fairness the Russo bros followed the rule of "Show, don't tell", and that's what made that last scene so incredibly beautiful and effective, even Cap can get his happy ending, and that was just... I dare say the most delightful scene in the entire MCU. You wanted to see Cap and Peggy together and for a long time it just wasn't in the cards, then all of a sudden opportunity knocks, and I couldn't be happier. I just hope Sam becomes a great Captain America. For a while I was expecting Bucky to be the new Cap but I guess that wasn't in the cards either.

I've been playing connect the dots in my head today, thinking about the big and little ways Endgame mimics Infinity War... there is of course the scene on Vormir, people turning to dust at the end, but I think my favorite one is where... I THINK it's the same actress? Who says "Something has just entered the atmosphere".

Aside from just being completely blown away and emotionally overwhelmed, one thing I HOPE people take away from Engame is this: Captain Marvel is effing awesome and totally worthy of my respect.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: wihogfan on April 27, 2019, 09:22:07 PM
I'm sad about a lot of things, but I'm mostly sad that this seems to be the end of an era.
I really really really wish this was the end of this era, but not a chance in hell that a movie that males a billion dollars won't result in at least 3 more sequels regardless of what has been said/promised.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 27, 2019, 09:27:01 PM
There was never a doubt in my mind that the Avengers movies would continue after this. I mean yeah, obviously without Iron man and... probably without Steve Rogers. They still gotta take on Galactus, Doctor Doom, Baron Mordo, Fing Fang Foom and so on.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on April 27, 2019, 11:00:00 PM
I would *love* to see a comic accurate Fin Fang Foom in the MCU, but I expect a better done Mandarin before we get FFF.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 28, 2019, 12:44:23 AM
I really enjoyed it, although I'm not convinced it was a great movie.

Still, I think so much of it was perfect.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Kete on April 28, 2019, 10:01:50 AM
When Cap takes the stones back, he also has Mjolnir. I assume he returned it to Thor in the other timeline? It's not an infinity stone, but I assume it's pretty important to that timeline.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 28, 2019, 11:21:41 AM
When Cap takes the stones back, he also has Mjolnir. I assume he returned it to Thor in the other timeline? It's not an infinity stone, but I assume it's pretty important to that timeline.
I thought about that last night and in my head I was like oh yeah he has to take Mjolnir back to past Thor.

One of the biggest HFS moments in the movie is probably where "Professor" Hulk is looking up at the sky... and we see missiles coming down towards Avengers HQ. During the first showing of the move I was thinking about what possible plan Nebula might have to try and wreck the Avengers plan, then when I saw the Circulos coming through the quantum realm I was like "HOLY SHIT".

Getting to see it twice gives you the luxury of picking on things you might have missed or forgot about the first time. No movie is perfect, but Endgame is pretty close to perfection IMHO. The only thing I'm bothered by is 4, maybe 5 lines of dialogue in the entire film. In a three hour film, that's not bad.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: goflyblind on April 28, 2019, 11:26:59 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/LAlfvhy.png)

one point twenty-one gigabucks!
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 28, 2019, 12:04:15 PM
Nice!  ;D
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on April 29, 2019, 08:55:38 AM
You know, that moment when it looks like Thanos is going to re-snap was genuinely suspenseful to me on a meta level because the way he'd been setting it up sounds EXACTLY like how comic book universes do their reboots. "Shouldn't have let everyone remember the vanished. So I'm going to completely change everything from the ground up. Maybe there will be mutants this time!"
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on April 29, 2019, 09:20:04 AM
I wish I had that. But what about Doctor Strange saying this is the only way they'll win?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 29, 2019, 04:00:42 PM
I wish I had that. But what about Doctor Strange saying this is the only way they'll win?

It's the only way the FANS win. Mutants and Fantastic Four are now part of the MCU. ;P
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 29, 2019, 04:11:07 PM
I'm still very apprehensive about possibly bringing the FF into the MCU. I'm just not sure how anybody can pull them off in a successful manner(since it's already been tried three times now). Now the X-men? That's a totally different story, just need to find an actor capable of filling good old Wolverine's shoes.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 29, 2019, 04:26:50 PM
I'm still very apprehensive about possibly bringing the FF into the MCU. I'm just not sure how anybody can pull them off in a successful manner(since it's already been tried three times now). Now the X-men? That's a totally different story, just need to find an actor capable of filling good old Wolverine's shoes.

Huh, I'm the complete opposite. Fantastic Four seems very easy to integrate and should be easy to translate into a great film, given they've done so well with worse material.

The X-Men terrifies me. I don't see how it doesn't become a mess.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on April 30, 2019, 07:26:06 AM
I'm still very apprehensive about possibly bringing the FF into the MCU. I'm just not sure how anybody can pull them off in a successful manner(since it's already been tried three times now). Now the X-men? That's a totally different story, just need to find an actor capable of filling good old Wolverine's shoes.

Huh, I'm the complete opposite. Fantastic Four seems very easy to integrate and should be easy to translate into a great film, given they've done so well with worse material.

There is a great version of FF already. It's called The Incredibles.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 30, 2019, 04:05:38 PM
I'm still very apprehensive about possibly bringing the FF into the MCU. I'm just not sure how anybody can pull them off in a successful manner(since it's already been tried three times now). Now the X-men? That's a totally different story, just need to find an actor capable of filling good old Wolverine's shoes.

Huh, I'm the complete opposite. Fantastic Four seems very easy to integrate and should be easy to translate into a great film, given they've done so well with worse material.

There is a great version of FF already. It's called The Incredibles.

Honestly, that is one of my least favourite versions of FF movies.

At least the others were trainwrecks - The Incredibles is just a snooze.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 30, 2019, 05:40:49 PM
https://www.rogerebert.com/mzs/avengers-mcu-and-the-content-endgame
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on April 30, 2019, 06:35:50 PM
Oh, I dunno. The old, "It sucks that everyone likes popular stuff, but nobody likes niche stuff" argument never held much water for me.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 30, 2019, 06:40:35 PM
Oh, I dunno. The old, "It sucks that everyone likes popular stuff, but nobody likes niche stuff" argument never held much water for me.

It didn't seem like he thought it sucked so much as it was just happening?

"I can also honestly say that, at this point, I'm more curious than apprehensive about what the future will bring. This is the kind of cultural moment that people tell their grandkids and great-nephews and nieces about. Whether the tone of the remembrance is sad or wondrous depends on who's telling it, but tell it they will, because it's happening, right now, to all of us. It's not often that you get to watch the complete transformation and eventual fusion of two art forms, the transformation of art and entertainment itself, and the technology that supplies and defines it. "
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on April 30, 2019, 07:01:21 PM
There's an air of mourning in there, but yeah, it's not totally negative either.

I've always been drawn to serialized stories. Not that there's anything wrong with a self-contained viewing experience, but there's something exciting about knowing that something that happened in issue 23 might come back to haunt someone all the way in issue 80, and it rewards you for being there from the start, taking it all in. While growing up, there really wasn't a lot of entertainment like that. Most TV shows were designed with the idea that everything had to be back to normal by the end of the episode. You could watch the episodes out of order and nothing would seem out of place. I would live for those 2-parter TV episodes, or movies with sequels. Then I got into comic books and I loved that they never ended and always remembered their past. I can still remember coming out of Iron Man after seeing that post-credits movie sequence and excitedly saying after, "Wouldn't it be awesome if they could release all of these superhero movies together and Spider-Man could drop in on The Hulk's movies now and then, just like in the comics?" Watching all of that actually come to be has been glorious.

What I love most about this whole transformation (If you will) is that things like Game of Thrones or Marvel Movies or even Star Wars used to be fringe stuff. Only the geeks watched that stuff. Now I can discuss it openly at work with coworkers almost twice my age. It's like the world has figured out something about geek culture that I've known all along.

This rant has ended up all over the place, but I guess what I'm saying is I have absolutely no reservations about the future of cinema or TV or entertainment in general. I love that we're here.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 30, 2019, 07:03:15 PM
I'm a little bummed out because it'll be a LONG time, maybe never(in my lifetime) until a movie comes out that tops Endgame in every respect.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 30, 2019, 07:08:19 PM
There's an air of mourning in there, but yeah, it's not totally negative either.

I've always been drawn to serialized stories. Not that there's anything wrong with a self-contained viewing experience, but there's something exciting about knowing that something that happened in issue 23 might come back to haunt someone all the way in issue 80, and it rewards you for being there from the start, taking it all in. While growing up, there really wasn't a lot of entertainment like that. Most TV shows were designed with the idea that everything had to be back to normal by the end of the episode. You could watch the episodes out of order and nothing would seem out of place. I would live for those 2-parter TV episodes, or movies with sequels. Then I got into comic books and I loved that they never ended and always remembered their past. I can still remember coming out of Iron Man after seeing that post-credits movie sequence and excitedly saying after, "Wouldn't it be awesome if they could release all of these superhero movies together and Spider-Man could drop in on The Hulk's movies now and then, just like in the comics?" Watching all of that actually come to be has been glorious.

What I love most about this whole transformation (If you will) is that things like Game of Thrones or Marvel Movies or even Star Wars used to be fringe stuff. Only the geeks watched that stuff. Now I can discuss it openly at work with coworkers almost twice my age. It's like the world has figured out something about geek culture that I've known all along.

This rant has ended up all over the place, but I guess what I'm saying is I have absolutely no reservations about the future of cinema or TV or entertainment in general. I love that we're here.

I think it is reasonable to mourn the end of an era, even if you are ok with it and are excited about what's to come.

This article really captures one of my feelings about Endgame - I loved it, but didn't think it felt like a 'good movie.'

But that's ok, because I love a lot of blockbuster serialised stuff, and no one's really going to stop making 'movies' they are just likely to be on Netflix etc.

Having said that, no one has managed to do what Marvel has done - even Star Wars has had stumbles and had to work on righting their ship. So who knows?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on April 30, 2019, 08:13:01 PM
I finally saw it tonight. It was AMAZING! So many thing paid off, even more than I thought they would.
Considering that the Infinity Gauntlet is a literal Deus Ex Machina, I'm not going to complain about some of the times when they could have used it and they didn't. Too much of it (like it has been in the comics) would have lessened the impact of when it was used.

I do have a slight issue when Thanos changed his plans from the sympathetic and selfless "ensure balance" to "DESTROY EVERYTHING BECAUSE BWAHAHA!" Did they really need to us the stakes again? Especially since this is the earlier version of Thanos that still had that "balance" plan. And we know he has eliminated half of life on whole planets before. You'd think he'd have seen by now that the result is resentment and longing for what was before.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 30, 2019, 08:17:53 PM
Darth I think Thanos changed his plans because we all needed to see he truly was a monster and that his outlook on the universe is contingent upon how life reacts to changes in the nature of things. Some might have seen a certain wisdom in what he was doing, but we had to see Thanos, for all his pleadings of altruism is really a sick, sick bastard.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on April 30, 2019, 08:21:07 PM
Darth I think Thanos changed his plans because we all needed to see he truly was a monster and that his outlook on the universe is contingent upon how life reacts to changes in the nature of things. Some might have seen a certain wisdom in what he was doing, but we had to see Thanos, for all his pleadings of altruism is really a sick, sick bastard.
I already saw him as that. And I think the general audience member did. I wonder if this was a last minute change due to some sick fan reactions thinking Thanos was right.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on April 30, 2019, 08:23:17 PM
I already saw him as that. And I think the general audience member did. I wonder if this was a last minute change due to some sick fan reactions thinking Thanos was right.
Who knows? Honestly I think this way it works better, especially because of "Born out of blood", and "They'll never know".
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on April 30, 2019, 09:07:55 PM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on April 30, 2019, 09:47:04 PM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
But if it didn't accomplish his goal doing it to half the universe all at once, it wouldn't have worked when he did it in person to each planet. So why is this result new to him? He actually says that the planets he did his half extermination on have prospered afterwards. Is he lying about that? Or is did he never check up on it and just assumed it worked?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on April 30, 2019, 09:48:37 PM
This movie also reminded me that I need to watch Agent Carter. I heard it was good, but never saw it while it was on.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on May 01, 2019, 12:00:01 AM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
But if it didn't accomplish his goal doing it to half the universe all at once, it wouldn't have worked when he did it in person to each planet. So why is this result new to him? He actually says that the planets he did his half extermination on have prospered afterwards. Is he lying about that? Or is did he never check up on it and just assumed it worked?

Maybe it's because on the other planets people were definitively killed, but in this instance he used magic that was undo-able?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on May 01, 2019, 12:00:35 AM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
But if it didn't accomplish his goal doing it to half the universe all at once, it wouldn't have worked when he did it in person to each planet. So why is this result new to him? He actually says that the planets he did his half extermination on have prospered afterwards. Is he lying about that? Or is did he never check up on it and just assumed it worked?

First season is excellent. The second season was not.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 01, 2019, 05:44:51 AM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
But if it didn't accomplish his goal doing it to half the universe all at once, it wouldn't have worked when he did it in person to each planet. So why is this result new to him? He actually says that the planets he did his half extermination on have prospered afterwards. Is he lying about that? Or is did he never check up on it and just assumed it worked?

First season is excellent. The second season was not.
Are you referring to my Agent Carter comment?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on May 01, 2019, 03:41:19 PM
To be fair, he rethought his plan because he saw it wasn't working.
But if it didn't accomplish his goal doing it to half the universe all at once, it wouldn't have worked when he did it in person to each planet. So why is this result new to him? He actually says that the planets he did his half extermination on have prospered afterwards. Is he lying about that? Or is did he never check up on it and just assumed it worked?

First season is excellent. The second season was not.
Are you referring to my Agent Carter comment?

Sorry, yes
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 02, 2019, 10:13:16 AM
There's only one thing I think they've left open that the comics did they could do as well, and would fit.

Funny I mentioned that earlier. Because that was actually something that they also subverted expectations. I thought Nebula would have the gauntlet next, like they did in the comics. Nebula was holding the gauntlet at one point, but didn't put it on.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 04, 2019, 08:14:07 PM
I don't know if it's just me, but I'm seeing this trend ALL over FB where people are like OMG that Rat saved the universe. I'm of course all like "Ha ha, very funny, but what you're neglecting to mention is--" "I mean that rat saved us all!" "Yes, I heard you the first time! If I may continue pl--" "That rat is the REAL hero of Endgame!" "Shut up about the damn Rat already!"

Here's my point, this was the same thing I have had to point out to people about Infinity War. People were blaming Star Lord for losing his shit and Thanos getting all the stones. Here's the thing: There are a LOT of links in this chain, or if you prefer the chain of events leading up to Thanos completing the Gauntlet. First, Loki, if he didn't give in, Thanos would not have acquired the space stone. Secondly, if Nebula had simply taken her own life on the ship, Thanos would never have acquired the Soul Stone. Third, if Star Lord didn't lose his shit, they might have gotten the Infinity Gauntlet back, right? WRONG because Doctor Strange already went forward in time and saw all outcomes. Even if Peter had NOT lost his shit, Thanos may have still maintained the gauntlet. Fourth, Doctor Strange is the key to all this because he is technically responsible for Thanos getting both the Time and Mind stones. So that leads me to this question: Why the eff doesn't anybody ever blame Doctor Strange for what happened? Simple, this was the ONLY way. Now... after seeing Endgame I still don't quite understand. I'm assuming Thanos would have gotten the stone from Doctor Strange sooner or later so it doesn't really matter anyway? What if Doctor Strange tried to commit the ultimate sacrifice himself? Would Thanos have used the glove to keep Stephen alive? We may never know.

Now, Endgame. The first and foremost important link in the chain of events is Captain Marvel. Without her, Tony doesn't get back to Earth. He would have died in space and half the universe stays dead forever. The rat switching on the machine and spitting out Scott is of course important, but it doesn't mean shit unless Tony is still alive and back on Earth. Did all the people who keep making this joke about the rat just conveniently forget Strange bargained to spare Tony's life? He did that for a reason, not just because they suddenly became BFF's. Then of course there's the mega complicated chain of events, the original six Avengers along with Rhodey, Ant-man, Nebula and Rocket all have important roles in acquiring all six infinity stones in the past. Nat dies so Clint can get the Soul stone. Clint picks up and runs with the gauntlet, evading Thanos's forces. Later on, Black Panther, Spider-man, Captain Marvel all have a role in getting the gauntlet to where it's supposed to be. And of course, finally Tony's tech yanks all the stones out of the gauntlet so Tony can use his own gauntlet and snap Thanos and his entire army into oblivion.

Wait, why am I composing this post again? Oh yeah... the rat. or as many have affectionately come to call him... Splinter, which makes a lot more sense if the events of Endgame took place sometime in the 1980's.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on May 04, 2019, 11:53:38 PM
Saw it a second time and it still packs a whallup. I've been steeling my nerves all week in preparation, but I'm not ashamed to say I still couldn't make it through without sobbing uncontrollably. We're talking Pixar levels of tear jerking. I think I'm a proximity crier. I was keeping it together until the sobs from all over the audience kicked in.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on May 06, 2019, 02:42:35 PM
You know, I'd pay good money to go see "Captain America: Return of the Stones." So many interesting stories that must have happened off screen. (Vormir would have been especially interesting...)
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 06, 2019, 04:11:34 PM
I'd really like to know how Cap returned the stone on Vormir. Did he just say "Hey Red Skull, what's up bud? Oh yeah I've come back to put this orange stone thing back."
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 07, 2019, 06:54:54 AM
I read somewhere a good line would be, "I bet no one's tried returning this before." Very Cap like him to say that.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 07, 2019, 10:28:45 AM
I kind of hope they don't, and just leave it mysterious, but I wonder if they will explore higher level powers like the one that controls the possession of the Soul Stone. It's clearly an intelligence of some sort. Hulk said he tried to Bring Black Widow back but he couldn't, so it is more powerful than the wielder of the Infinity Gauntlet.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 07, 2019, 10:34:32 AM
I had to explain to one of my best friends in detail why they couldn't bring Black Widow back. I was like... you paid attention during the movie right? You did hear that its an everlasting exchange, right?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 07, 2019, 11:09:22 AM
I had to explain to one of my best friends in detail why they couldn't bring Black Widow back. I was like... you paid attention during the movie right? You did hear that its an everlasting exchange, right?

"It can't be undone! Or, at least that's what the red floating guy had to say! Maybe you ought to go talk to him! Go grab your hammer, and you find and talk to him!" -Russoguru
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 07, 2019, 05:41:23 PM
Cap: Floating RED guy? Clint, did he have a Red Skull by any chance?
Clint: Well... yeah.
Cap: Holy shit, so that's where he went.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 08, 2019, 07:11:40 AM
Cap: Floating RED guy? Clint, did he have a Red Skull by any chance?
Clint: Well... yeah.
Cap: Holy shit, so that's where he went.

Language!
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 08, 2019, 07:20:48 AM
Language!
Cap: Aw you gotta be shittin' me.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on May 08, 2019, 07:21:00 AM
https://www.ign.com/articles/2019/05/02/which-avenger-swears-the-most-in-the-marvel-cinematic-universe
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 08, 2019, 08:25:53 AM
I never even thought of this before, but Infinity War may have ripped of The Venture Brothers

(https://assets1.ignimgs.com/2018/12/21/avq2920-v1081027-1545236989362-1280w-1545418948780_1280w.jpg)

(https://vignette.wikia.nocookie.net/venturebrothers/images/c/c4/Reddeath1.png/revision/latest?cb=20160321202424)
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Kete on May 08, 2019, 10:09:47 AM
Cap: Floating RED guy? Clint, did he have a Red Skull by any chance?
Clint: Well... yeah.
Cap: Holy shit, so that's where he went.

Language!

Doesn't Cap swear right before the title card in Endgame?  I remember thinking that they should have returned to the same scene after the title card with someone saying "Language!"
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 08, 2019, 02:08:40 PM
Doesn't Cap swear right before the title card in Endgame?  I remember thinking that they should have returned to the same scene after the title card with someone saying "Language!"
Yep, he said "Let's go get this son of a bitch", which is something he also said in Age of Ultron. 
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 08, 2019, 04:00:32 PM
Moved my post over to this thread since it's more appropriate here. Someone spoiled Infinity War for me last year, so I stayed away from social media for 10 days (right at the moment it was announced that leaks were hitting the internet). I went in completely unspoiled, and it was totally worth it! Difficult at times, but worth it. I journaled to help pass the time. Here's what it was like.

Wednesday 4/17 - Day 1

Work has been extra boring.
Need to start writing down the stuff I've been wanting to share.
Survivor tonight. Not the same without the online watch party people.

Thursday 4/18 - Day 2

Mild browsing is still very stressful.
Posting/commenting a little. Will check back after the 10 days are over.

Friday 4/19 - Day 3

Mueller report reactions. Trying to stay away from any discussion about it is proving difficult.

Sat & Sun 4/20-21 - Days 4 & 5

Not a big deal since I generally don't use social media on weekends.
Extra busy weekend with home/family responsibilities.

Mon 4/22 - Day 6

Paranoia increasing. Expecting more spoilers around *every* website as movie is released around the world.

Tues 4/23 - Day 7

YouTuber has a big upcoming tease. Can't explore further.
Paranoia is becoming easier to deal with in a "new normal" kind of way.

Wed 4/24 - Day 8

Tomorrow is the big day. We're in the endgame now.
Trying to enjoy World Premiere coverage and interviews without fear.
No Survivor tonight. Going to RiffTrax Live: Octaman instead!

Thurs 4/25 - Day 9

Glad there's too much to do to get ready for the movie tonight to be online much.

Fri 4/26 - Day 10

Made it. Logging back in everywhere.
Kinda feels like that time I took 5 weeks off from being online when my kid was born. Like jumping back into water after missing swimming.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: NRRork on May 14, 2019, 10:09:47 AM
So can Spider-man buy beer now?

That's just one of the many, MANY things that will need sorting out. Or I think of like the parents who return and find out their baby is in first grade and calling someone else "Mommy".

Granted, I'm from the midwest, so I'm USED TO being five years behind everyone else, but a lot of people aren't trained to handle this shit.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 14, 2019, 03:32:11 PM
The HBO miniseries The Leftovers is apparently about this very thing (based on a novel).

Premise: The series begins three years after the "Sudden Departure", a global event that resulted in 2% of the world's population disappearing, and follows the lives of those who were left behind.

Honestly, I'm really interested in watching this and pretending it's MCU canon. Well, unless they find out the cause isn't an omnipotent alien with magic crystals. And maybe if they don't stress the 2% number too much. Ok, I just want to see these ideas fleshed out like everyone else.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on May 14, 2019, 06:24:38 PM
The HBO miniseries The Leftovers is apparently about this very thing (based on a novel).

Premise: The series begins three years after the "Sudden Departure", a global event that resulted in 2% of the world's population disappearing, and follows the lives of those who were left behind.

Honestly, I'm really interested in watching this and pretending it's MCU canon. Well, unless they find out the cause isn't an omnipotent alien with magic crystals. And maybe if they don't stress the 2% number too much. Ok, I just want to see these ideas fleshed out like everyone else.

The Leftovers is one of the all time best TV shows.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: NRRork on May 14, 2019, 08:24:12 PM
I don't mean the lives of people left behind, I mean dealing with everyone suddenly being BACK. I find it hard to believe the world is just gonna just slip right back to normal by the time of Spider-Man: Far From Home.

That's gonna be as much of a logistical nightmare as the first snap was. To say nothing of the severe mental and emotional trauma of it all. The survivors aren't gonna just be able to shake off the last five years, and the returned dead are gonna have a lot of crazy shit to deal with-- they're not gonna be able to just slip right back into their old lives.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on May 14, 2019, 08:55:12 PM
Yeah, half the world is at least probably unemployed.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: goflyblind on May 14, 2019, 09:44:33 PM
and the returned dead are gonna have a lot of crazy shit to deal with-- they're not gonna be able to just slip right back into their old lives.

nah, it's all cool, bro. let's go look at some european landmarks!
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: NRRork on May 15, 2019, 01:22:37 AM
It drives me NUTS, man.

These big superhero movies get made fun of for that all the time, and Civil War even tried to address it, and I remember thinking "BOO, Government DICKHEAD who's keeping the Avengers from avenging! You are the Skyler White of the MCU!!!!"

So I hope it's not as glossed over as all that. Even watching with the mentality of: "It's a comic book movie, they're just roided up wizards, essentially"

...in addition to a couple real wizards... I kinda forgot about them. DAMN there were a lot of characters in that movie. Okay, that's a tangent. Point is I'm pretty good at letting stuff like that go but I just can't get over how much they're understating that.

But I should have faith in them. I get that they didn't wanna dwell on that just then. They wanted a MOSTLY happy ending. And I get why they didn't want the Spider-man trailers to be a dour gloomfest. If the genre wasn't notorious for sweeping that stuff under the rug, I'd be less bothered by it, because this leaves a HELL of a cultural scar. How long before you think any of them could sleep easily again?

It'd be like if World War III broke out, and then five years later all the cities were magically rebuilt, and the radiation gone, and all the dead people were alive again. But the it all still happened, and everything you went through didn't go away.

It's one thing to be able to compartmentalize the things that could kill us, but this would be like an existential crisis kinda thing. It'll be fun to think about if nothing else. Definitely a new kind of apocalyptic fiction, I'll give it that.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Edward J Grug III on May 15, 2019, 03:57:51 AM
These big superhero movies get made fun of for that all the time, and Civil War even tried to address it, and I remember thinking "BOO, Government DICKHEAD who's keeping the Avengers from avenging! You are the Skyler White of the MCU!!!!"

You thought General Ross was the only right and reasonable person in the movie?
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Russoguru on May 15, 2019, 10:35:37 AM
Speaking of Ross, he did attend Tony's funeral. I hope this is the writers way of saying he's changed his mind about some things. We don't even know if he vanished in the snap or not. I'm guessing he did, especially since the Avengers were back at their HQ in New York for a full five years.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 15, 2019, 11:35:29 AM
It still pisses me off that Ross suffered no consequences for his actions in The Incredible Hulk, he even got promoted.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: stansimpson on May 15, 2019, 10:42:10 PM
Sounds right in line with real life military ranks. Failing straight up through the chain of command.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 16, 2019, 06:08:12 AM
Sounds right in line with real life military ranks. Failing straight up through the chain of command.
This is true, but it's not exactly the kind of gritty realism I expected from my fun MCU movies. Especially since it's not even commented on! You'd think at least Banner would have a bit of a problem with that.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Pak-Man on May 16, 2019, 08:28:53 AM
I always thought it was interesting that it was Ross who was approached at the end of The Incredible Hulk. I wonder if SHIELD struck a deal with him.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Darth Geek on May 16, 2019, 09:34:32 AM
I always thought it was interesting that it was Ross who was approached at the end of The Incredible Hulk. I wonder if SHIELD struck a deal with him.
I thought there was something in one of the other shorts about SHIELD sending Stark to talk with Ross because they knew Stark would annoy him and keep Ross off their backs or something.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: NRRork on May 16, 2019, 10:58:36 PM
These big superhero movies get made fun of for that all the time, and Civil War even tried to address it, and I remember thinking "BOO, Government DICKHEAD who's keeping the Avengers from avenging! You are the Skyler White of the MCU!!!!"


You thought General Ross was the only right and reasonable person in the movie?

In a way, yeah, or represented what would be a right and reasonable position in real life.

Just like Skyler.

I think a big reason Skyler was so disliked is because everyone WANTED to see Walter White continue his downward spiral into villainy, and there was no place for a realistically concerned and suspicious spouse.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: Johnny Unusual on May 22, 2019, 03:10:40 PM
I think a big reason Skyler was so disliked is because everyone WANTED to see Walter White continue his downward spiral into villainy, and there was no place for a realistically concerned and suspicious spouse.

See, I've always been in the pro-Skyler camp for that reason.  I feel like she grounds the series and while White's spiral makes him believe in his own legend and build up his ego and self-confidence and we see that it hurts the people who love him like Skyler, breakfast enthusiast Walt Jr and Jesse.  Both characters end up making some bad choices that seem right at that juncture but while Walt begins to see it as a reason to engage in his worst instincts, characters like Skyler and Jesse find it as damaging to themselves as well as the people who get hurt along the way.  I also feel like she, along with several other characters, get improved a lot as the show goes on.  In season one, she and Hank are a bit more broad but as they move on they prove to be really well rounded characters.

Anyhoo, if we want to keep this conversation going, we can dig up the old Breaking Bad thread and continue it there.
Title: Re: Avengers: Endgame - SPOILERS HERE
Post by: kunedog on September 04, 2019, 03:01:54 PM
A+

Color me relieved the Russos didn't drop the ball.  The way I most feared they'd screw up (because it would be both a) intentional and b) beneficial in the short term) was by closing with a cliffhanger.  But in a bold move, they (somehow with Disney's approval) tied everything up so thoroughly that it amounts to a clean break for any fan who wants one.

Instead of the expected battle for the stones, they did the Back to the Future 2 thing competently on a grand scale (and patched over the plot hole well IMO, but this is subjective).  I wish there were better words to describe it than "clip show" and "cameos" because those connote laziness and cheapness.  These callback scenes are unpredictable yet all of them feel well-earned.  Can't ask for more than that.

Reading my IW post again, I have some of the same gripes, so there were few nasty surprises.  Obviously, Endgame is as impenetrable as IW to those out of the MCU loop.  It's unfortunate that this is technically a different Thanos, but his crash course is done well enough that I think most of the audience just kinda pretends he's the same guy (plus they used the old Thanos to develop Thor and Nebula).  The comedy is greatly improved this time.  As in IW, the first snap is cheap and they try hard to give it weight when most of us already know it's going to be (nearly) completely undone.  The five year gap is an interesting twist (though FFH didn't take it very seriously) and of course Tony's third snap sacrifice means more than anything to a lot of us.

I appreciated how the conflict over the time stone was resolved with a conversation (and a powerpoint presentation) instead of a fight, and I wish the soul stone had been awarded similarly.  Widow and Hawkeye's balanced duel felt overblown and unnecessary.  How about this instead:

As before, Widow and Hawkeye each make their case for sacrificing themselves, but now Widow concedes so Hawkeye "wins."  Maybe she has dialog reminiscent of her Avengers 1 interrogation of Loki, as foreshadowing for what's about to happen.  They both say tearful goodbyes and embrace for a few seconds.  They start to pull apart for a moment before Widow suddenly leans back in and plants a kiss on Hawkeye's lips.  He's as shocked as the audience is, and definitely not reciprocal; he doesn't have (those) feelings for her, nor did he think she did for him, but (at this moment) he doesn't quite have the heart to push her away . . . at least not until it's too late.  We now get his first-person view, a straight-on shot of Widow staring into his eyes, wiping something off her lips, and walking backwards towards the cliff.  As his vision blurs he puts two and two together, then he wakes up with the stone, as before.

I think that would better mirror the first soul stone scene (i.e. a subdued affair where one party puts up a token resistance, but they're completely outmatched and the outcome is inevitable).

Anyway, this post is already too long and makes my complaints seem larger than they are.  I don't expect to see another movie to match this for a long time, if ever.  It requires a multi-year, multi-film setup and a clear, coherent vision and plan (if not a complete pre-existing library of source material) from the start.  Phases 1-3 comprise an instant classic.