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General Discussion => Television aka TV discussion => Topic started by: EightBitHero on March 15, 2007, 05:38:40 PM

Title: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: EightBitHero on March 15, 2007, 05:38:40 PM
Someone here's gotta be a Bullshit fan other than just me.  Who's going to be watching season 5 when it premiers on March 22?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Rude on March 15, 2007, 06:34:24 PM
...

I've always been a fan of Penn & Teller, and finally got a chance to meet them and see their show in Vegas last year!

As a little kid, i had a magic set that i used to play with all the time. But, i think because of that, i eventually became more interested in how magicians actually pulled off their tricks, rather than being wowed by the tricks themselves. So Penn & Teller really appealed to me because they almost always exposed how they were fooling everyone during their shows.

Bullshit! is really a great show for them because they continue their "crusade" to expose frauds and tricksters. And i almost always agree with their views and how they approach any topic. Although, as a film student i also recognize the bullshit they pull on their own show... editing munipulation, citing only selective facts, very unscientific field tests and less than reputable interview subjects. But it's still a great show and carries a great punch!

I'm always looking forward to a new season!

-Rude
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MrTorso on March 15, 2007, 07:50:38 PM
I just wait for the DVDs. 

I've always been a fan of Penn & Teller, and finally got a chance to meet them and see their show in Vegas last year!

I really enjoy the fact that right after the last trick they go to the front of the theater and sign autographs for every single person.

(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o255/MrTorso/pandtld.jpg) 

My laserdisc for the film. They both stopped signing to talk to me about for like 5 minutes.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 15, 2007, 08:39:24 PM
I got the first disc from the first season from Netflix. While I enjoyed the premise, watching a bunch of episodes at one time got grating. Penn can get obnoxious pretty quickly.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: mrbasehart on March 16, 2007, 04:59:33 AM
I've only caught a few episodes of Bullshit, and while I do like it, I'm wondering how many more targets they can attack. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 16, 2007, 05:11:20 AM
I've been a huge fan of theirs, and I will admit they've influenced my political views and caused me to think a bit more outside the box when it came to identifying with a political party or looking at important issues. I grew up in a conservative household, moved to LA and got some good ol' liberalism thrust upon me, and now that i've finally settled into my own point of view on stuff (hey, it *should* take awhile), i probably could best be described as a libertarian, though not to the letter.

I could go on about that for awhile, but yeah. Penn & Teller kick ass.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 16, 2007, 05:43:47 AM
Indeed they do, except for being closed on my trip to vegas.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 06:07:30 AM
I've only caught a few episodes of Bullshit, and while I do like it, I'm wondering how many more targets they can attack. 

Somehow, I don't think casting your lot with there being a preponderance of bullshit out there is exactly backing a losing horse. I mean, they ARE about to start Season Five...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 06:08:49 AM
I just wait for the DVDs. 

I've always been a fan of Penn & Teller, and finally got a chance to meet them and see their show in Vegas last year!

I really enjoy the fact that right after the last trick they go to the front of the theater and sign autographs for every single person.

(http://i122.photobucket.com/albums/o255/MrTorso/pandtld.jpg) 

My laserdisc for the film. They both stopped signing to talk to me about for like 5 minutes.

I've got that laserdisc. I need to get off my bum and capture that sucker on my computer so's I can make a DVD.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MrTorso on March 16, 2007, 07:42:26 AM
It is in my stack to do the same! 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 07:59:44 AM
Yeah, I've got a bunch of stuff like that I need to get cracking on.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 16, 2007, 08:33:22 AM
Love the P&T, have since the 80's.  Saw them twice live, both shows BLEW ME AWAY!!!!  I have all of the video they ever did on VHS, including the movie, and "...Tricks to play on friends..." etc.

Haven't seen any BS yet, because I don't have showtime, but the DVD boxsets are in my sights.

Yes, to the poster that talked about their political views, etc.  I am the same way, card-carrying Libertarian since I was 19 so I think both parties and both extremes are just insane.  Plus, even though I espouse a religious view that they Penn would mock me mercilessly for, my feet are firmly planted in the "Science First" box, as are theirs.  Penn is a member of CSICOP, after all, they HATE my religion, but I admire them, go figure!

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: mrbasehart on March 16, 2007, 08:37:42 AM
Somehow, I don't think casting your lot with there being a preponderance of bullshit out there is exactly backing a losing horse. I mean, they ARE about to start Season Five...

I agree that there is a lot of bullshit out there, but I was just thinking in terms of the series and whether they can keep it fresh.  I hope they can, because other than being entertaining, it's also informative.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 08:49:04 AM
Somehow, I don't think casting your lot with there being a preponderance of bullshit out there is exactly backing a losing horse. I mean, they ARE about to start Season Five...

I agree that there is a lot of bullshit out there, but I was just thinking in terms of the series and whether they can keep it fresh.  I hope they can, because other than being entertaining, it's also informative.

In the third season, there were a few episodes that seemed to be reaching a bit in terms of topics, but they've cruised right out of that and have been going strong ever since.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 16, 2007, 08:59:42 AM
only seen about 3 episodes of the last season, but they could revist old topics, maybe hook up with james randi and go after someone big like Sylvia Browne or something.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 16, 2007, 09:10:17 AM
Bullshit kicks ass. Eagerly awaiting the new season that starts, I think, next month.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: SmilinJackRoss on March 16, 2007, 09:26:12 AM
One of my favorite gifs:

(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v187/cooleyre/stfu2.gif)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 16, 2007, 09:42:56 AM
That made me LOLz. Out loud.

Brilliant.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 09:51:51 AM
only seen about 3 episodes of the last season, but they could revist old topics, maybe hook up with james randi and go after someone big like Sylvia Browne or something.

I don't know that there's any point to going after her. She's been proven inarguably wrong and completely debunked on so many occasions that I think it can be safely said that such information has become ubiquitous; it's available to virtually anyone who wants it. To profess faith in her "powers" at this point is either an act of supreme willpower ("I want to believe" is one of the most dangerous credos a human being could ever adopt), or, as in the case of people like Montel Williams, is simply an act, done for the purpose of drawing in the gullible.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: homerjayla on March 16, 2007, 09:54:56 AM
The first season was the bomb but then it got a little less great every season.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: tgeorgic on March 16, 2007, 10:26:43 AM
yeah, i loved season 1, thought season 2 had some good epsidoes then havent liked it much after that.  i only purchased the first 2 seasons on dvd as well.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 16, 2007, 10:29:28 AM
Quote
I don't know that there's any point to going after her. She's been proven inarguably wrong and completely debunked on so many occasions that I think it can be safely said that such information has become ubiquitous;

P&T's very first episode was about cold reading performers like herself, and it still remains one of my favorites because it was an extremely personal issue for Penn. The episode won an Emmy, if i recall correctly. Sylvia wasn't mentioned in the show, but many others were, including John Edward, who I have a hatred for as deep as space.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 16, 2007, 11:44:05 AM
Bullshit kicks ass. Eagerly awaiting the new season that starts, I think, next month.

Even better, next week.  And the first episodes going to piss off A LOT of liberals probably; Walmart Bashing  ;D


other topics this season as far as I've been able to find are:

Obesity
Detoxing
Exorcism
Immigration


Still dissapointed about Penn Radio being cancelled
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: EightBitHero on March 16, 2007, 01:09:42 PM
Still dissapointed about Penn Radio being cancelled

Urgh, me too, I would listen from work every day and was a semi-regular emailer (I was Christian the Skeptical Atheist).  I had so many call of the weasel stories because i'm such a horrible, horrible weasel and then they go and cancel the show.

But anyway, I'm lookin' forward to season 5, it looks pretty great.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 16, 2007, 01:41:11 PM
I'm hoping he and Michael will pick it up again as a podcast thing...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: omninaut on March 16, 2007, 08:50:49 PM
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Rude on March 16, 2007, 10:30:29 PM
Quote from: omninaut
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.

...  ::) ...

-Rude
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 17, 2007, 04:49:10 AM
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.

What a positively ridiculous statement.

Leaving aside the fact that whoever did it would in fact be a terrorist. What does your truther rubbish tell you in response to Al Qaeda through Al Jazerra et al promoting and taking credit for the act?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 17, 2007, 04:54:11 AM
only seen about 3 episodes of the last season, but they could revist old topics, maybe hook up with james randi and go after someone big like Sylvia Browne or something.

I don't know that there's any point to going after her. She's been proven inarguably wrong and completely debunked on so many occasions that I think it can be safely said that such information has become ubiquitous; it's available to virtually anyone who wants it. To profess faith in her "powers" at this point is either an act of supreme willpower ("I want to believe" is one of the most dangerous credos a human being could ever adopt), or, as in the case of people like Montel Williams, is simply an act, done for the purpose of drawing in the gullible.

It was an example, they could merrily do something like Oprah for a show, but I was meaning more like they could do a show on the Million Dollar challenge, if they ever found someone willing to try it, go through the phases and stuff. Remember the focus of the challenge has changed to be more focused and agressive, P&T could tie into that nicely.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 17, 2007, 05:51:14 AM
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.

What a positively ridiculous statement.

Leaving aside the fact that whoever did it would in fact be a terrorist. What does your truther rubbish tell you in response to Al Qaeda through Al Jazerra et al promoting and taking credit for the act?

Responding to that nonsense is a waste of your time and energy. People who buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theory garbage have no credibility to call their own, so they attempt to steal it from rational people by engaging them in debate, believing (quite mistakenly) that credibility rubs off. They are on the same level as "the moon landing was faked" nuts and Holocaust deniers, and the best course of action is simply to ignore them.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 17, 2007, 06:10:19 AM
Fair enough.

Moon Landing Hoax, good analogy.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 17, 2007, 06:12:53 AM
Pretty much from the first season I have wanted them to do Lie Detectors.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 17, 2007, 06:16:00 AM
Pretty much from the first season I have wanted them to do Lie Detectors.

Oooo... that WOULD be a good one.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 17, 2007, 06:24:36 AM
Pretty much from the first season I have wanted them to do Lie Detectors.

Or, fingerprints!  There has been quite some rumblings about for the last few years that fingerprint analysis is somewhat less than the exact science that we have been led to believe.  Some of the stuff I have read and seen is quite scary.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 17, 2007, 02:58:23 PM
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.

What a positively ridiculous statement.

Leaving aside the fact that whoever did it would in fact be a terrorist. What does your truther rubbish tell you in response to Al Qaeda through Al Jazerra et al promoting and taking credit for the act?

Responding to that nonsense is a waste of your time and energy. People who buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theory garbage have no credibility to call their own, so they attempt to steal it from rational people by engaging them in debate, believing (quite mistakenly) that credibility rubs off. They are on the same level as "the moon landing was faked" nuts and Holocaust deniers, and the best course of action is simply to ignore them.

Such a shame there won't be another Joe Rogan moon landing debate....  though the second one I thought he was losing ground fast...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 17, 2007, 03:49:13 PM
Quote
Pretty much from the first season I have wanted them to do Lie Detectors.

ive never seen this show, but from what you all are saying it sounds interesting.  I too have always been very skeptical about lie detectors.  I also am very curious about the wlamart bashing episode someone mentioned. 

ps everyone knows the moon isnt real, its a collective mass illusion that some people have chosen to beleive in. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 19, 2007, 06:09:42 AM
Penn and Teller believe that terrorists did 9/11... the ultimate BULLSHIT.

What a positively ridiculous statement.

Leaving aside the fact that whoever did it would in fact be a terrorist. What does your truther rubbish tell you in response to Al Qaeda through Al Jazerra et al promoting and taking credit for the act?

Responding to that nonsense is a waste of your time and energy. People who buy into the 9/11 conspiracy theory garbage have no credibility to call their own, so they attempt to steal it from rational people by engaging them in debate, believing (quite mistakenly) that credibility rubs off. They are on the same level as "the moon landing was faked" nuts and Holocaust deniers, and the best course of action is simply to ignore them.

Such a shame there won't be another Joe Rogan moon landing debate....  though the second one I thought he was losing ground fast...

I WILL say that Rogan acquitted himself very well in those discussions, especially when one considers that his position on the issue is completely wrong; that's actually quite an achievement.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 19, 2007, 06:14:36 AM
Quote
Pretty much from the first season I have wanted them to do Lie Detectors.

ive never seen this show, but from what you all are saying it sounds interesting.  I too have always been very skeptical about lie detectors.  I also am very curious about the wlamart bashing episode someone mentioned. 

ps everyone knows the moon isnt real, its a collective mass illusion that some people have chosen to beleive in. 

Be warned; some episodes may not suit your taste. I strongly disagree with their opinion on the death penalty (although I thought the episode was really good); and in the second season, they debunk the Bible (I LOVED it, but you might not).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 19, 2007, 06:15:53 AM
how did they "debunk" the bible??

Whats their stance on the death penalty?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 19, 2007, 06:23:55 AM
how did they "debunk" the bible??

You'd kinda have to see the episode.

Whats their stance on the death penalty?

They're against it. Ironically, I'm for it for many of the same reasons they cite for their opposition.

BTW, if you go to www.sho.com, there's a listing of episodes, along with some video previews.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 19, 2007, 02:41:45 PM
I WILL say that Rogan acquitted himself very well in those discussions, especially when one considers that his position on the issue is completely wrong; that's actually quite an achievement.

In a college public speaking class I gave a speech arguing that the moon landing was hoaxed. I don't really believe it, but it was something fun and different to talk about.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 19, 2007, 04:02:06 PM
That was like when I was in debate in high school and had to arguing for more censorship and regulation on TV. Not only did I not believe the point I was making, but I trounced the guy I was debating and some people said later they were compelled by the stuff I said. Didn't sleep well after that... if there's ever an A grade that I could give back it would be that one.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 20, 2007, 02:46:53 PM
I feel inspired, next time I get the chance in school I'm going to attempt to prove that the world is flat or that gravity doesn't exist based on arguments from http://fstdt.com
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 20, 2007, 03:22:43 PM
actually do gravity doesnt exist as laid out in the book

the dilbert future.

which is a hilarious book, although the part to which i am referring isnt a joke. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 21, 2007, 04:05:27 AM
in the second season, they debunk the Bible

Laughing already, must find it.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Rufus T on March 21, 2007, 05:00:17 AM
 I like the episode they did on recycling. I've tried to tell some of my friends about it but they usually stop me right after I explain that Penn and Teller say that recycling is bullshit. Once they hear that then they pretty much assume that Bullshit is nothing but bullshit.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 21, 2007, 06:37:24 AM
I like the episode they did on recycling. I've tried to tell some of my friends about it but they usually stop me right after I explain that Penn and Teller say that recycling is bullshit. Once they hear that then they pretty much assume that Bullshit is nothing but bullshit.

Yeah, it's bloody amazing how touchy people get when you step on these "sacred cows".  People WANT to believe so bad that everything is going to be OK, that when you show them a fact like, 80% of all recycling programs across the country are cheated on, they just squeeze their eyes shut, stick their fingers in their ears and sing, "LALALALALA, I can't hear you...!"

I mean, what do they think?  The mob that controls sanitation is going to go out of their way to take your bottles to a recycling plant?  If they can take a short cut they will, that's what organized crime does!  Just deal with it.  Either work to change it, or accept it.

As a disclaimer: I am certainly not saying that ALL sanitation in this country is controlled by the mob, (I personally don't think organized crime is always a bad thing, but that's another thread...) but you have to admit, a good deal of it is, in some way, influenced by The Organization.  Maybe not in Utah...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 21, 2007, 06:51:39 AM
Yeah, it's bloody amazing how touchy people get when you step on these "sacred cows".  People WANT to believe so bad that everything is going to be OK, that when you show them a fact like, 80% of all recycling programs across the country are cheated on, they just squeeze their eyes shut, stick their fingers in their ears and sing, "LALALALALA, I can't hear you...!"

The greatest example of that actually on the show was when they merely brought up the fact that some people critisize the idea of pet psychics to the people who use them with their pets and they instantly went from pleasant to upset and offended yelling "I AM NOT CRAZY!!"
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 21, 2007, 11:11:09 AM
I love my pets more than most of my human family, and I like to think of myself as open-minded, but I can't help but snort derisively when I hear the term "pet psychic." It's a reflex - like closing your eyes when you sneeze.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 21, 2007, 02:10:53 PM
ive always liked dogberts concept of the furniture psychic. lol
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 21, 2007, 03:29:51 PM
No, Randy, people want to believe that things are NOT going to be OK, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. In fact, Penn himself put it best in the film Michael Moore Hates America: "[when you look at history]...in fifty-year hunks, 100-year hunks, you'll find two things are always true: one is, the world is always getting better; and two is, people always think it's getting worse."
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 21, 2007, 03:43:18 PM
again i agree with ya beenie :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 21, 2007, 04:09:06 PM
I think I've agreed with gbeenie on almost everything (can think of at least one thing) too.... 


is Michael Moore Hates America any good?  I'm a little afraid to watch it for the same reason I am Fahrenheit 911
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 21, 2007, 04:14:01 PM
i saw one i liked.  it was called farenhype 911. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 21, 2007, 04:39:52 PM
I think I've agreed with gbeenie on almost everything (can think of at least one thing) too.... 


is Michael Moore Hates America any good?  I'm a little afraid to watch it for the same reason I am Fahrenheit 911

It's really good. It's not just about pointing out Moore's use of editing tricks, out-of-context sound bites, and outright lies, which is a good thing, as that information is everywhere (fish in barrel, meet shotgun); director Mike Wilson also refutes Moore's very negative attitude about America (in a very positive way, no less), and he explores what it means to be an ethical documentarian (even leveling some criticism at himself in the process).

All in all, very enjoyable and highly recommended.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 21, 2007, 04:44:21 PM
sae - is the whole purpose refuting Farenheight 9/11?  and do they actually use any of his tricks in trying to refute whatever it is?

beenie - the fact that he levels critcism at himself (as well as the fact Penn is in it) makes me really interested in it..... i think i may have to check it out...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 21, 2007, 05:34:31 PM
No, Randy, people want to believe that things are NOT going to be OK, in spite of all the evidence to the contrary. In fact, Penn himself put it best in the film Michael Moore Hates America: "[when you look at history]...in fifty-year hunks, 100-year hunks, you'll find two things are always true: one is, the world is always getting better; and two is, people always think it's getting worse."

The world is always getting better?  I don't know that I agree with that.  Carl Sagan, (a fellow member of CSICOP with Penn) talked about our Technological Adolescence and whether we would survive it, and I don't know if we really can.  The genie seems to be out of that particular bottle...

But, what the hell, I got no kids, I got maybe another 20 years on the planet so what the hell do I care if it gets better or worse.  I have no optimism or pessimism for the human species.  I look at it all with bemused detatchment.  Life will go on with or without humans around, always has always will, (well for another 15 billion years til the sun explodes anyway...)

George Carlin, "Life begins at conception?  I say life began 3 billion years ago and it just keeps on going... just keeps on going..."
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 21, 2007, 05:54:27 PM
But all you have to do is look at the last fifty years of human history (I'm not even gonna mention the past 100 years, as that would be too easy), and the amazing things that been done to improve the human condition worldwide; that, coupled with the ever-accelerating pace of technological advances, can only be reasonably met with optimism about the future. In my view, it's the pessimists of the world who are generally ignoring important facts that surround them every day.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 21, 2007, 08:04:11 PM
But all you have to do is look at the last fifty years of human history (I'm not even gonna mention the past 100 years, as that would be too easy), and the amazing things that been done to improve the human condition worldwide; that, coupled with the ever-accelerating pace of technological advances, can only be reasonably met with optimism about the future. In my view, it's the pessimists of the world who are generally ignoring important facts that surround them every day.

Well, that may be true for you and me and much of the Western World, but the fact remains that at least 1 billion, maybe 2 billion people, (depending on which study you go by the CDC or the recent JAMA review), still live in bone crushing poverty, slavery and slums.  Maybe fully a third of the world's population have no idea that any wonderful technological advances have made their lives better.

And these amazing things have had a huge negative impact on our environmental niche.  Now, I say OUR environmental niche because I have no such silliness in my head that we are hurting the planet in any way.  We are hurting ourselves.  Once we kill ourselves off, the planet will take a scant 2 or 3 million years to renew itself and be a paradise again.  Hell, it only needs a couple of microbes to survive and it can spring back in just a few hundred million years.  That's the source of my optimism.  Life is eternal, just not maybe HUMAN life.

But like I say, it's no big deal.  There are no losers here.  Life just keeps on going.  The same amount of matter and energy that the Earth had 4 billion years ago is still here.  It just keeps getting recycled into different forms.  The dinosaurs are still here, only now they keep our SUV's going!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 22, 2007, 02:09:31 AM
I find it funny that certain people seem to point out the sites/media who oppose Michael Moore as if they're unquestionably pure fact while pointing out that his movies do nothing but lie.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 22, 2007, 05:02:49 AM
But all you have to do is look at the last fifty years of human history (I'm not even gonna mention the past 100 years, as that would be too easy), and the amazing things that been done to improve the human condition worldwide; that, coupled with the ever-accelerating pace of technological advances, can only be reasonably met with optimism about the future. In my view, it's the pessimists of the world who are generally ignoring important facts that surround them every day.

Well, that may be true for you and me and much of the Western World, but the fact remains that at least 1 billion, maybe 2 billion people, (depending on which study you go by the CDC or the recent JAMA review), still live in bone crushing poverty, slavery and slums.

No one's denying that. BUT, thanks to our current amazing ability to access and see information from all around the world, we are far more able to understand the size and scope of the problems, and to hopefully deal with them effectively. Hell, in the past sixty years, nearly a billion people in poorer parts of the world have been saved from starvation by the actions of one man (food scientist Norman Bourlag, very probably the greatest human being who has ever lived. And he's still around; how many of our forebears can say they lived at the same time as someone who had such a positive impact on the world?). In the absence of all other evidence, that alone would be cause for optimism.

Want another example? Look at the PlayPump (www.playpumps.org (http://www.playpumps.org)). The FIRST human need, above ALL others, is safe drinking water; here's a playground that children in rural Africa play on, which, through their activity, pumps safe water from deep underground for their villages. That isn't just life-giving; it's beautiful, in virtually any way I can think of to define the word. It brings a tear to my eye just thinking about it. I honestly don't see how cynicism and pessimism can look at such a wonderful beneficent creation of the marvelous human brain, and not simply whither and die.

And these amazing things have had a huge negative impact on our environmental niche.  Now, I say OUR environmental niche because I have no such silliness in my head that we are hurting the planet in any way.  We are hurting ourselves.

There's no evidence to support that. Air and water quality have IMPROVED in most of the world over the last thirty years, and in the places where they're not improving, they're getting worse at a much slower rate than they had been. The reason, again, is technology. The industrialized world is learning to balance its needs for productive capacity with environmental concerns, and the result is not only environmental improvement for us, but the creation of more opportunity for prosperity for the third world. Most of the third world's problems are political; what the people living in oppressive regimes need the most is information, to show them that they don't have to live that way. Did you know that right now, in Iran, millions of people are getting information their fundamentalist theocracy doesn't want them to have, through the use use of satellite dishes (which are illegal there)?

You're right, Randy: the genie IS out of the bottle. But the genie is not the end of us. The genie is the potential for human magnificence, and it's here to kick ass and chew bubblegum.

And it's all out of bubblegum.  :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 22, 2007, 05:09:40 AM
I find it funny that certain people seem to point out the sites/media who oppose Michael Moore as if they're unquestionably pure fact while pointing out that his movies do nothing but lie.

How so? A thing is either true, or it's not true. If Moore purports something in one of films to be factual, when it ISN'T, how is pointing that out "funny?"
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 22, 2007, 05:33:52 AM
One small example to support Randy though is that the Romans seemed to be way ahead of their times (plumbing, philosophy, etc) but after their civilization failed a lot of their ideas were lost for years...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 22, 2007, 05:57:01 AM
Just as a reminder, Penn and Teller: BULLSHIT! is premiering Season 5 tonight.

The episode, entitled "Obesity," airs tonight at 10pm on Showtime.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 22, 2007, 06:45:23 AM
Beenie, I think you have profound Star Trek poisoning!

Look, my problem is I just do not have any faith in the Human Animal.  We are essentially the same grinning, gibbering, bloodthirsty apes we were 100,000 years ago and aren't likely to change in the next 10,000.  What you are talking about is all window dressing.  We will always have better machines but for the most part, these machines allow us to get places faster in order to kill, torture, and maim more efficiently.

In order for us to survive the the next century or the next century after that, we will need to fundamentally change our very perceptions and emotional responses from reptile to something somewhat more enlightened.  That may happen, it is absolutely possible, as is anything.  An evolutionary leap, some divine or otherworldly intervention, or cosmic mutation could make us wake up and stop slaughtering everyone and everything around us.  Remember though that mass extinction is a regular event for good ol' Mama Earth.  She likes to clean the slate every couple million years and start over.  There are several natural disasters that we will have no control over and that are kind of "overdue" in a geological timescale, that could wipe us out lickety split.

As far as the environmental thing:  sure, it gets better in one area and worse in others and people point to the good and say, "See?  Everything is cool!"  But the eco-system is all connected as one living organism.  If China is polluted, (and it is BIG time), then so is/will be America.  This stuff doesn't just go away.  When we dumped 70 million tons of Dioxyn into our own eco-system in the 60's and 70's because we just didn't know any better and there was no EPA, we didn't realize that that stuff NEVER goes away.  Now, our babies are born with it, our food is full of it and it is having effects and will have effects on all of our health for hundreds of years to come, until our biology can adapt to it properly.  Just as one small example.

But, hey, maybe someone will come up with a miracle like the "Dwarf Wheat" that you refered to, or some neato Star Trek technology that will save the world, (as long as it's profitable for some mega-corporation, that is!)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 22, 2007, 07:43:19 AM
One small example to support Randy though is that the Romans seemed to be way ahead of their times (plumbing, philosophy, etc) but after their civilization failed a lot of their ideas were lost for years...

That's because they only survived long enough to go from polytheism (which they mostly stole from the Greeks, anyway) to monotheism, which is inherently anti-advancement. Had the Greeks not been vanquished and plundered by the Romans, there's evidence that their ongoing move away from polytheism would have resulted, not with yet another religion, but with reason and enlightenment, and human civilization might well have been 1500+ years ahead of where it is right now.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 22, 2007, 07:59:15 AM
Yeah, I actually meant Greece... I tend to get the 2 confused a lot for that very reason...

But I was talking more about Aristotle, Socrates, and Aristotle as far as philosophy goes...  And mainly about how technilogically advanced they were for their time and how after their demise things sorta fell apart if I remember correctly till after the Middle Ages.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 22, 2007, 08:01:26 AM
Just as a reminder, Penn and Teller: BULLSHIT! is premiering Season 5 tonight.

The episode, entitled "Obesity," airs tonight at 10pm on Showtime.

got that email earlier today  ;D, also looking forward to the premier of This American Life afterwards which I hear nothing but good things about the radio version of but have yet to listen to...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 22, 2007, 09:18:15 AM
Beenie, I think you have profound Star Trek poisoning!

Sorry Randy, but I don't believe in Roddenberry's hippie free-love commune version of the future any more than I believe in Rick Berman's "happy communist" version (seriously; watch the scene in First Contact where Picard is explaining to Lily how the economics of the 24th century work. He's describing Red China, for crying out loud!).

Look, my problem is I just do not have any faith in the Human Animal.

Faith is belief without proof. The problem is, you DO have faith; in the face of all the evidence to the contrary, you persist in the belief that human beings are only capable of savagery and self-destruction. This is exactly the same as the "original sin" garbage that religion tries to sell.

We are essentially the same grinning, gibbering, bloodthirsty apes we were 100,000 years ago and aren't likely to change in the next 10,000.  What you are talking about is all window dressing.  We will always have better machines but for the most part, these machines allow us to get places faster in order to kill, torture, and maim more efficiently.

In order for us to survive the the next century or the next century after that, we will need to fundamentally change our very perceptions and emotional responses from reptile to something somewhat more enlightened.  That may happen, it is absolutely possible, as is anything.  An evolutionary leap, some divine or otherworldly intervention, or cosmic mutation could make us wake up and stop slaughtering everyone and everything around us.

Again, where's the evidence? The last century has seen the greatest increase in the standard of living for human beings in the history of the world. The wars that we still see around the globe are primarily the death throes of religion, which foolishly believes that there is a level of violence that can turn back its march into oblivion (its march into obsolescence having been complete for nearly a thousand years). And this hasn't happened because of "some divine or otherworldly intervention, or cosmic mutation"; it's happened because it's not just our bodies that evolve. Our thinking has also evolved; to believe otherwise is to ignore virtually everything you see around you, and to dismiss the advances in our daily lives as mere "window dressing" is not only fallacious, but misses an important point: our ability to focus on minutiae is not only proof of our ongoing evolution, it's the substance of it as well. We already think differently than we did 100 years ago; a century ago, every person on this planet (including those here in the civilized West), with a FEW notable exceptions, had to eat EVERY SINGLE THING they could lay their hands on in order to avoid starvation. While this is still unfortunately true in many parts of the world, the fact is that most everyone in civilized societies no longer has this concern.

Remember though that mass extinction is a regular event for good ol' Mama Earth.  She likes to clean the slate every couple million years and start over. 

First off, you're anthropomorphizing a hunk of rock. I don't really know how that's helpful. And your statement itself ignores the fact that there has never been another species like ours on the planet; our ability to adapt doesn't even have a close second among animal species.

There are several natural disasters that we will have no control over and that are kind of "overdue" in a geological timescale, that could wipe us out lickety split.

NOW you're changing arguments. You've gone from "we'll destroy ourselves, just wait and see" to "well, Mother Nature has it in for us, so it doesn't matter anyway." And I disagree in either case; do you know how many people weren't killed in the tsunami of 2004 who would have been, were it not for early-warning technologies some places had? And how many who died could have been saved, if such technologies had been more advanced and widespread? If you wish to frame it in terms of "Man Vs. Nature," then I've already chosen my side (most of you reading this have, too; you just don't realize it). The primary technological goal of human achievement has been to put ourselves in a position where nature (which, in direct contradiction to the "Mother Nature" nonsense most of us have been subjected to for decades, is not kind, charitable, forgiving, nurturing or gentle) can no longer fuck with us. We're not all the way there yet, but you better believe we're getting there.[/quote]

As far as the environmental thing:  sure, it gets better in one area and worse in others and people point to the good and say, "See?  Everything is cool!"

Please read what I actually wrote, Randy, instead of trying to shove me into your own ideological box. You come across as a bit condescending when you do that.

But the eco-system is all connected as one living organism.

Again with the nonsense of trying to put a human face on the environment.

If China is polluted, (and it is BIG time), then so is/will be America.

Except that America is FAR less polluted than it used to be (regardless of China's problems), and ultimately, China is going to be put in a position where their continued economic growth will be dependent on them cleaning up their act. If China's problems really ARE our problems, then it follows logically that our solutions will be their solutions.

This stuff doesn't just go away.  When we dumped 70 million tons of Dioxyn into our own eco-system in the 60's and 70's because we just didn't know any better and there was no EPA, we didn't realize that that stuff NEVER goes away.  Now, our babies are born with it, our food is full of it and it is having effects and will have effects on all of our health for hundreds of years to come, until our biology can adapt to it properly.  Just as one small example.

And don't you think the fact that we DO know better now is just one small example of how our thinking changes and evolves over VERY short periods of time? I have to say, your example IS novel; I haven't read a word about Dioxin in at least twenty years. If there IS an ongoing health problem resulting from its former use, I'd actually like to learn a little about it.

But, hey, maybe someone will come up with a miracle like the "Dwarf Wheat" that you refered to

Dwarf Wheat is NOT a "miracle"; it's a product of the human brain, the only force I respect or fear in the entire universe.

or some neato Star Trek technology that will save the world

Once again, you make with a snide Star Trek reference, and again I detect a note of condescension. Not only is it not appreciated, but, to put it bluntly, given the merits of our arguments, it's not even remotely justified.

(as long as it's profitable for some mega-corporation, that is!)
I certainly hope so. Corporations are responsible for virtually everything you see when you look around you (indeed, they make our very ability to have this conversation possible); hell, a corporation brings us our beloved RiffTrax. I'll trust a hundred corporations I KNOW to be corrupt over ONE government that purports to be honest any day of the week.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 22, 2007, 10:22:02 AM
You know what, Beenie, I am really sorry.  I did sound condesending and I really didn't mean to.  When I read it back I was a little shocked myself.

You make excellent arguments.  And I have admitted many times on this forum that I know nothing.  Please forgive me.  I wrote in haste with not enough editing.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 22, 2007, 03:40:15 PM
And I'm sorry if I gave the impression that I'm angry, Randy; I'm not.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 22, 2007, 03:46:21 PM
Group hug, everyone.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 22, 2007, 05:48:48 PM
couldn't get access to the digital cable TV, anyone catch it?


and why did you delete your post torgos?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 22, 2007, 07:53:44 PM
Eh, I realized I didn't really need to voice my opinion on the matter. I didn't want to be taken too seriously as taking one side or the other. And besides, the debate was fairly light hearted even if it was passionate.

But I will say that it was a good debate and beenie won.  (Happy now, pyro?) :)

Anyways... the episode was awesome. "Do I smell pie?" Needless to say I feel better about myself, having seen a viewpoint on the show that I hadn't quite considered. Tomorrow I shall celebrate - mexican for lunch, Wendy's for dinner. Sounds like a great day.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 22, 2007, 11:28:35 PM
geese i switch shifts (from boring ass nights, to busy days) and i miss THIS??  sigh. 

ps beenie how can you even bother calling randy condescending when you just called every religous person (me pak jproof randy and a few others ive seen admit to it) a blithering idiot and curse on this planet?  Dont you think that sort of bigoted hatred is not helpful to the proper sort of enviroment we would like to see?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 23, 2007, 03:23:05 AM
Eh, I realized I didn't really need to voice my opinion on the matter. I didn't want to be taken too seriously as taking one side or the other. And besides, the debate was fairly light hearted even if it was passionate.

But I will say that it was a good debate and beenie won.  (Happy now, pyro?) :)

Anyways... the episode was awesome. "Do I smell pie?" Needless to say I feel better about myself, having seen a viewpoint on the show that I hadn't quite considered. Tomorrow I shall celebrate - mexican for lunch, Wendy's for dinner. Sounds like a great day.

yep  :clap: (since there's no thumbs up)


Did you also watch This American Life after it?  That's something I'm looking forward to catching after how much my friend plays it up.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 23, 2007, 02:34:55 PM
First off, sarc, I never said I hated anybody. Although I try to be as positive as I can, I'm no Pollyanna; I recognize that humanity DOES have problems, and that religion is at the top of the list (I'm not even sure there's a close second). That said, when it comes down to discussing and debating serious things, I find that, in general, I prefer talking to a hardcore religious person over a hardcore leftist. Why? Because, in my experience (and again, I'm speaking in generalities; I don't mean to imply that this is my exclusive experience, or that my experiences apply to everyone), a religious person is far more likely to tell me what they believe, as opposed to leftists, who are far more likely to tell me why I should believe what they believe. It's an interesting irony that I generally feel less proselytised to by christians than I do by Democrats. Maybe religious people are more likely to be taught the maxim of good manners which states that there's an appropriate time and place to be pushy about your viewpoint; I dunno. What I DO know is that religious people seem to be more content to simply have their particular viewpoint, and to honestly state the truth as they see it. This is in sharp contrast to leftists, who seem to feel like they've somehow failed as people if they can't convince you how right they are. Although they may be wrong (and BOY HOWDY, are they), I respect religious people's approach more, as it's more like my own (however stridently I might express my points, try to remember that all I'm ever doing is telling the truth as I see it). People who are constantly trying to politick me come across, quite frankly, as a bit insecure that anyone could possibly be okay with things not being the way they want them. One thing to understand about me is that I reject utterly ANY philosophy which demands that other people change; to make your happiness dependent on other people being the way you want them to be is a surefire recipe for a life of abject misery. I mean, think a minute about those morons with the bumper sticker on their cars that reads, "Is It 2008 Yet?" Apart from the civic laziness of such a credo, how pathetic do you have to be to make your own ability to live the life you want for yourself conditional on who the fuck's in the White House?

Second, as far as Randy's tone goes, I only said what it felt like to me; I tried not to assume that he meant it that way (if I came across like I did, I apologize), and I believe him when he says he didn't.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 05:47:23 PM
I call BS on them personally.  They use the same arguements as every other anti-Christian such as taking Scriptures out of context, "the Bible teaches to kill", and other quotations from the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet.  Nice way of condensing 2,000 years of theological, philosophical, and practical thought!

And its only the beginning too, better get on that bandwagon folks cause the persecutions just beginning!  There hasn't been a good one since Justin the Apostate!

EDIT:  I'm in a really sarcastic mood by the way, but this is how it feels to me.  I hear this crap over and over and over!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MasterChief on March 23, 2007, 05:59:46 PM
I call BS on them personally.  They use the same arguements as every other anti-Christian such as taking Scriptures out of context, "the Bible teaches to kill", and other quotations from the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet.  Nice way of condensing 2,000 years of theological, philosophical, and practical thought!

what are you talking about? since when has it been practical to kill firstborn children, or to own slaves? taking quotes out of context is one thing but it's the overall tone of the book that pisses me off. i guess i just don't quite understand. how do you get philosophy from a vengeful, murderous being such as the god of the old testament? i can quote many passages of the bible that seem to promote violence against others, all as part of god's will. how is that taking anything out of context, and how do you get a positive message from it?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 06:37:39 PM
I call BS on them personally.  They use the same arguements as every other anti-Christian such as taking Scriptures out of context, "the Bible teaches to kill", and other quotations from the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet.  Nice way of condensing 2,000 years of theological, philosophical, and practical thought!

what are you talking about? since when has it been practical to kill firstborn children, or to own slaves? taking quotes out of context is one thing but it's the overall tone of the book that pisses me off. i guess i just don't quite understand. how do you get philosophy from a vengeful, murderous being such as the god of the old testament? i can quote many passages of the bible that seem to promote violence against others, all as part of god's will. how is that taking anything out of context, and how do you get a positive message from it?

Page 2 of "How to Attack Christianity":  "Show the startling contrast between God in the Old Testament and New Testament.  Be careful not to get trapped when Christians give you examples of how "He" was consistent."

Page 3 of "How to Attack Christianity":  "Remember to bring to the front all of the Old Testament laws, that though don't have any relevance to even modern Judaism, that show brutal acts given to the Israelites by God.  Leave out all historical context of the world at the time for better effect."

*Sigh*

Heard it all before, kid.  You know there is a clear difference between the Covenant of Abraham and the one created when Christ was crucified right?  Also, Psalms and the works of the Prophets that have many examples of how your "vengeful, murderous being" was the exact opposite?

EDIT:  I wouldn't continue you this if I was you, for I'm going to just be cracking jokes from here on out.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 23, 2007, 08:54:34 PM
So the god who holds us accountable for the sin of a man who lived thousands of years ago, shouldn't expect his history to be at all relevant?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 23, 2007, 08:55:35 PM
Or is he a new man now? He's really changed this time, He promised!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 09:14:16 PM
This is utterly hilarious.  I make a comment on how I dislike Penn and Teller (the point of this thread) and I get lambasted for my beliefs.  You know why I haven't read Deuteronomy and Leviticus and why I skip around with the Old Testament, because beyond the messages of David, Solomon, and the Prophets I feel that it is not essential to my Christian walk. 

I'm not playing that game.  Get over your own hatred for Christianity and God.  You hardened your heart a long time ago, and nothing I say will change that so I ain't saying squat.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 23, 2007, 09:36:15 PM
I know, It's terrible when people cherry pick from the bible isn't it.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 09:40:55 PM
I know, It's terrible when people cherry pick from the bible isn't it.

Again, you are confusing me with someone else.  Do I look like a Right-wing fundamentalist?  You are at war with someone else, not me.

And if that isn't your insinuation, then what is your point?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 23, 2007, 09:41:32 PM
There is almost nothing funnier than a christian in a 'western' country playing the poor maligned minority card.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 09:55:34 PM
There is almost nothing funnier than a christian in a 'western' country playing the poor maligned minority card.

At what point did I ever play that card?  By refusing to go into a debate?  By saying what I predicted of the future?

You have a problem, and it isn't with me.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 23, 2007, 09:56:35 PM
the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 10:03:22 PM
the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet

That really flew over your head didn't it?  Will I have to make these little [Satire][/Satire] next time?  I was saying that I felt that some Atheists were using an invisible pamphlet of pedantics for arguing with me.

Again I will say this, the Covenant with Abraham was fulfilled through Christ.  Christ nullified many of the laws in his own ministry!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 23, 2007, 10:32:59 PM
Yes, your scathing wit is far too advanced for me. 

OR that little non-joke may possibly have lead to my "there is almost nothing funnier than a christian in a 'western' country playing the poor maligned minority card" comment.



Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 10:37:57 PM
Yes, your scathing wit is far too advanced for me. 

OR that little non-joke may possibly have lead to my "there is almost nothing funnier than a christian in a 'western' country playing the poor maligned minority card" comment.

Well I guess you're just gonna have to fire me since I am such a bad personal comedian.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 23, 2007, 10:42:59 PM
This is just too easy and not worth my time.

BACK ON TOPIC.

Hired season 1 today, be checking it out tonight.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 23, 2007, 10:53:37 PM
This is just too easy and not worth my time.

BACK ON TOPIC.

Hired season 1 today, be checking it out tonight.

You weren't worth my time from the very beginning.  I care little of how you get your kicks.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 23, 2007, 11:35:44 PM
ZING!  Nice retort.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on March 24, 2007, 12:09:10 AM
You weren't worth my time from the very beginning. 

For someone saved and all that, you sure do seem awful bitter and angry, dude.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 24, 2007, 12:36:19 AM
sigh,  and again we have we two sides of an argument built on a basis of dislike instead of actual intent of debate.  Shame on you all. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 24, 2007, 01:40:49 AM
Sorry Grandma.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 24, 2007, 03:04:32 AM
you youngins behave or ill have to get the spatula out and wollop ya. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 24, 2007, 05:56:04 AM
Let me put it this way:

One of the elements that virtually all the Western monotheistic religions share is the idea that EVERYTHING is created by God. Right?

So, it follows that of the myriad things God created, one of them must be Comic Timing. Follow so far?

Therefore, the fact that a christian living anywhere in the United States of America can actually utter, with a straight face, the phrase, "...trying to shove their values down our throats", and NOT spontaneously combust ON THE SPOT is further evidence, to me at least, against the existence of God.

Or, at least, a God with ANY sense of Comic Timing.     :D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 24, 2007, 05:57:15 AM
BACK ON TOPIC.

Hired season 1 today, be checking it out tonight.

It's really good. And, as a onetime slave to the BMI, I found it enlightening.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 24, 2007, 06:02:57 AM
I call BS on them personally.  They use the same arguements as every other anti-Christian such as taking Scriptures out of context, "the Bible teaches to kill", and other quotations from the great "How to Attack Christianity" pamphlet.  Nice way of condensing 2,000 years of theological, philosophical, and practical thought!

So, Reductio, apart from inflaming the rather sizable chip on your shoulder, did P&T present anything on that episode that they purported to be factual which you have facts to dispute? Or...

And its only the beginning too, better get on that bandwagon folks cause the persecutions just beginning!  There hasn't been a good one since Justin the Apostate!

...are you simply indulging your VERY AMUSING persecution complex?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 24, 2007, 06:17:38 AM
Let me put it this way:

One of the elements that virtually all the Western monotheistic religions share is the idea that EVERYTHING is created by God. Right?

So, it follows that of the myriad things God created, one of them must be Comic Timing. Follow so far?

Therefore, the fact that a christian living anywhere in the United States of America can actually utter, with a straight face, the phrase, "...trying to shove their values down our throats", and NOT spontaneously combust ON THE SPOT is further evidence, to me at least, against the existence of God.

Or, at least, a God with ANY sense of Comic Timing.     :D

That post is pure fried gold.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 24, 2007, 06:47:44 AM
Let me put it this way:

One of the elements that virtually all the Western monotheistic religions share is the idea that EVERYTHING is created by God. Right?

So, it follows that of the myriad things God created, one of them must be Comic Timing. Follow so far?

Therefore, the fact that a christian living anywhere in the United States of America can actually utter, with a straight face, the phrase, "...trying to shove their values down our throats", and NOT spontaneously combust ON THE SPOT is further evidence, to me at least, against the existence of God.

Or, at least, a God with ANY sense of Comic Timing.     :D

That post is pure fried gold.

Thanks. I worked a long time on getting the wording just right. And Leftists say people who listen to talk radio are brainless.    :P
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: BathTub on March 24, 2007, 06:52:21 AM
You are at war with someone else, not me.

I am not at war with anyone, I asked a 100% genuine question about the nature of your god, and your response was to ignore the question and make new statements and insult.

Next time you should make it clearer that you are only here to make acerbic statements and not actually respond to any queries, I mean that is clear to everyone now after reading this thread and the other, but it would have saved everyone a lot of time.



Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MasterChief on March 24, 2007, 07:00:06 AM
Next time you should make it clearer that you are only here to make acerbic statements and not actually respond to any queries, I mean that is clear to everyone now after reading this thread and the other, but it would have saved everyone a lot of time.

sorry about this. i just had to post my feelings after he so casually shrugged his shoulders and called me "kid".

Again, you are confusing me with someone else.  Do I look like a Right-wing fundamentalist?  You are at war with someone else, not me.

i don't think i confused you with anyone. let me quote your own post back to you.


This is utterly hilarious.  I make a comment on how I dislike Penn and Teller (the point of this thread) and I get lambasted for my beliefs.  You know why I haven't read Deuteronomy and Leviticus and why I skip around with the Old Testament, because beyond the messages of David, Solomon, and the Prophets I feel that it is not essential to my Christian walk. 

what you're saying is, only parts of the bible are relevant to your "christian walk." who are you to decide what's relevant? i understand your political affiliation as NOT a "right wing fundamentalist" but that was never your god's label, was it? that's a modern creation of society, aka "man".  isn't it the belief of most-or-all christians that the bible is either the word OF god, infallible, or the inspired word of god? or all three? so how exactly do you justify "cherry picking" as bathtub put it, your own religious manual?

"oh, yeah, that part about loving they neighbor is great for what i believe in. but the part about killing kids and raping women, and god seeking justice. that can't possibly be true, since it doesn't make sense to MY OWN BELIEFS. i guess i'll ignore it.."

i've heard that all before, from every single religious apologetic. if one part of the bible is false then the whole thing must be, so anything i don't like i just won't accept personally. POOF! instant salvation!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 24, 2007, 10:17:50 AM
Instructions for Instant Penn & Teller Thread:

1. Light fuse.

2. Run away.

Remember guys, we're on a board about making fun of movies.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 24, 2007, 10:28:01 AM
No worries, Chris. This IS my sick idea of fun.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ChrisHanel on March 24, 2007, 11:17:42 AM
That's strange. I suddenly feel the need to run away faster.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 24, 2007, 11:41:19 AM
and on the topic of P&T.... I thought the episode was pretty good but they had virtually no rebuttle from the otherside, I only remember them even talking to anyone from the other side in the very beginning


but I really liked This American Life, only just now finally listening to one of the podcasts I've accumulated over the past month or so since the show was so good
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 24, 2007, 06:19:45 PM
I am not bitter, but I am angry.  To wish to change the world, one must be angry at it to attempt to change it.

I was being ascerbic with my responses because I understand that what I say will change nothing, and I'm tired of it.  To clarify something, I am not in any way or form have dislike for Scott H, Bathtub, or Masterchief.  I disliked their stale (to me) arguements that I have heard over and over.  I did not wish this and so became patronizing.  That is what I apologize for; I should have bowed out with honor instead of that smart ass attitude.

I will however, not debate the issue of ancient Israel's problems at this time.  I just do not have the time.

EDIT:  On the Persecution Complex... well I am an eccentric Christian.

Oh yes, on the Penn and Teller ep that goaded me to this... I shall find it and post once a few replies happen.

Ok, no one is saying anything so as not to double post:

[yt=425,350]8RV46fsmx6E[/yt]

First things first, so if we don't get a moral code from the Bible... where do we get it?  Oh yeah, there is relativism, which is impractical on a large scale in that it would be prone to rapid abuse (a whole lot more than people abuse the biblical moral code), commits injustice to victims, and would be a beaurecratic nightmare for all the possibilities that have to be logged and then changed.  Penn and Teller, your comments make as much sense if you use the same criteria against the Constitution in that since Thomas Jefferson and the other founders were slave owners that article is unusable as a code of law since that is now against the law.  What happened to taking articles of written work at face value?  Does the Ten Commandments themselves say anything that is not advantageous to law and order?

The Bible preaches prejudice, cruelty, superstition, and murder?   These guys really do bullshit.  They don't even try to be objective.  You complain on cherry picking and forget to mention its teaching of charity to the poor, pursuit of wisdom, and not sleeping with your neighbors wife.  Again, throw out the constitution cause it has inconsistencies as well.

On Genesis and Exodus:  these were written by an ancient people with ancient thinking.  It is stupid to take it literally, but it is not justifiable to toss out what is advantageous thought because you are holding dead historical man to live modern man's standards.  It is an apple and orange arguement.  On Moses... do we have any other evidence of Israelite life during this time?  If that is a no, then why are you refuting the ONLY evidence?  Mythology is used as evidence to ancient people.

There being multiple Messiah's:  The Jewish people were under the yoke of Rome, and yet it is strange that revolutionaries claiming themselves to be something important?  It should be taken even stranger that for all these, Christ was the one that lasted 2,000 years.  He was executed like all the others, and yet people still followed him while the others were forgotten?  They were looking for a person that was going to overthrow Rome.  Christ didn't do that.  He should have been forgotten but wasn't.  There has to be an explanation.  I doubt Saul would have become Paul for Apollonius.

Penn and Teller, why is something some horribly mistaken last for 10,000 years?  Why have better alternatives not killed it a long time ago?  Judeo-Christian thought is very contrary to man's desires.  Atheism hasn't killed it as well... there has to be more to its longevity than ignorant peasants.

To Gbeenie, it goes both ways.  Is there a difference between someone saying the God I serve is a Sadistic power-monger and that a person is going to Hell for being a homosexual?  No, there isn't.  Both are wrong and offensive for arguementation.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 24, 2007, 10:39:39 PM
yawn.

Can we possibly vote for the Round table's first banning?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 25, 2007, 12:19:13 AM
Let me put it this way:

One of the elements that virtually all the Western monotheistic religions share is the idea that EVERYTHING is created by God. Right?

So, it follows that of the myriad things God created, one of them must be Comic Timing. Follow so far?

Therefore, the fact that a christian living anywhere in the United States of America can actually utter, with a straight face, the phrase, "...trying to shove their values down our throats", and NOT spontaneously combust ON THE SPOT is further evidence, to me at least, against the existence of God.

Or, at least, a God with ANY sense of Comic Timing.     :D

Beautiful. Very Douglas Adams. A nice addendum to "It's hard to be religious when you consider that certain people are never incinerated by a bolt of lightning," which, if I recall correctly, is Douglas Adams.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on March 25, 2007, 01:05:25 AM
First things first, so if we don't get a moral code from the Bible... where do we get it? 

Anyone who asks that and means it scares the living daylights out of me. If you need to go to some book - any book at all -  to know how to treat other people, you have serious issues and should probably be monitored.

The answer to your question is empathy. Most of us are born with it.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 01:10:13 AM
sigh, since this conversation has been degraded to near troglodyte levels i really dont want to get involved but i feel compeeled to enter for some reason.

Quote
The answer to your question is empathy. Most of us are born with it.

why?  what value does empathy hold in a universe without an objective morality?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 25, 2007, 01:14:55 AM
Why do you need a book of rules to tell you how to treat people? surely it's wiser to make your own choices based on your view on the world.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on March 25, 2007, 01:21:28 AM
why?  what value does empathy hold in a universe without an objective morality?

You're arguing metaphysically in response to a pragmatic real-world concept and you're complaining about the level of discourse?

It is simply the reason people don't go about screwing each other over and killing willy-nilly all the damned time. Any imposed moral code seems generally to be far less effective than that built-in attitude corrector.

Again, anyone who needs to be told not to hurt people all the time is a sociopath.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 01:51:11 AM
Quote
You're arguing metaphysically in response to a pragmatic real-world concept and you're complaining about the level of discourse?

since when is ethics not a real world pragmatic thing?  metaphysics is whole different branch of the philosophy tree. 

So i ask again, what value does it ACTUALLY hold in a world without an objective morality, because if morality is in fact totally subjective then empathy holds little or no value on a personal social darwinistic world that seems to be implied we live in. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 25, 2007, 02:16:34 AM
Surely people who live a 'good' life based on the fact they think they will be rewarded at the end of it are actually less moral than people who live their lives based on their own ideas of right and wrong.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 02:18:12 AM
only if morality isnt subjective.  If its merely subjective then neither one of them would be. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on March 25, 2007, 02:22:11 AM
metaphysics is whole different branch of the philosophy tree. 

Not when you ask a question that can only be answered within the presupposition of a metaphysical answer, i.e. that there is a moral absolute standard as set by a divinity.

It's like the question "What is the meaning of life?". It may be grammatically sound, but it's nonsense unless you presuppose that life is supposed to have some sort of meaning, which would then have to come from some sort of metaphysical being or state.

So i ask again, what value does it ACTUALLY hold in a world without an objective morality, because if morality is in fact totally subjective then empathy holds little or no value on a personal social darwinistic world that seems to be implied we live in. 

It holds no "value" above and beyond the fact that it obviously works. As to what its evolutional uses might be, they're probably manifold, from helping in reason by allowing identification outside your own self, to generally bonding in family units and holding societal and group structures together.

Again, there's no need for a book or divinity to tell you what to do, and why that leads to a "personal social darwinistic world" - whatever scary unpleasantnesses that's supposed to imply - I do not know. I see absolutely no proven correlation between an imposed moral code and being a cool, generous and kind person.

Most of the main precepts of morality such the Golden rule and variations thereof are present in most societies. That would indicate that it's just something peple do, whether they're threatened with eternal damnation or not.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 25, 2007, 03:37:27 AM
 :clap:

bravo Sir.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 04:33:34 AM
Quote
Not when you ask a question that can only be answered within the presupposition of a metaphysical answer, i.e. that there is a moral absolute standard as set by a divinity

lol, who said i beleive in a divinity.  I know i sure didnt say divinity in my question, as sure as i am that i didnt say an absolute standard either.  I merely said objective. 

Look this is one of the most basic questions in any ethics 101 class.  It has little if anything to do with religion.  The question is simple. Is moraltiy subjective?  It comes with the basic follow-on if it is subjective does it still hold any value?

Metaphysics is something COMPLETELY different.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 25, 2007, 05:37:47 AM
First things first, so if we don't get a moral code from the Bible... where do we get it?  Oh yeah, there is relativism, which is impractical on a large scale in that it would be prone to rapid abuse (a whole lot more than people abuse the biblical moral code), commits injustice to victims, and would be a beaurecratic nightmare for all the possibilities that have to be logged and then changed.  Penn and Teller, your comments make as much sense if you use the same criteria against the Constitution in that since Thomas Jefferson and the other founders were slave owners that article is unusable as a code of law since that is now against the law.  What happened to taking articles of written work at face value?  Does the Ten Commandments themselves say anything that is not advantageous to law and order?

Way to go, you've managed to do exactly what you claim they did by using one of the most overused and tiresome arguments for religion in your first point.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on March 25, 2007, 08:28:12 AM
The question is simple. Is moraltiy subjective?  It comes with the basic follow-on if it is subjective does it still hold any value?

Yes. No. So?

Metaphysics is something COMPLETELY different.

Not if you're attempting to make morality an ordained absolute.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 06:07:13 PM
Quote
Not if you're attempting to make morality an ordained absolute.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Philosophy

Quote
Yes. No. So?

sweet now we are getting somewhere.

I take this to mean YES morality is subjective and NO ethics or morality holds no inherent value. 

Then the conversation takes a different course.  Arguing about what is right what wrong, even what is good and what is bad is pointless and silly.  When you say christian ethics are wrong (or anyone elses) all you really seem to mean is I feel this is wrong.  You might even be able to go as far as "my culture beleives its wrong" but thats as big a claim as you can make.  If its subjective doing things like calling the nazis evil is silly and pointless, CLEARLY they didnt think they were evil. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 25, 2007, 06:37:35 PM
I ask where we can go for a moral code besides the Bible because it is the most obvious answer to ask.  As I said in that other derailed thread, it is engrained in man to care for those who depend on them, but what of others beyond this scope?  What moral code do we give ourselves for our enemies who would in effect contradict this natural ethical state?

Yes I am changing how I'm speaking now.  I am ashamed at my stupidity in my earlier responses here.

EDIT:  I argued the penn and tiller episode as best, and in reflection the worst, I could.  I have much to train in my debating. My earlier posts were devoid of any wanting of debate so I became an asshat in responding to criticism raised.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 25, 2007, 08:20:39 PM
Here's why religion causes so many problems. Mister Christian says that society needs the Bible for a moral code. Mister Jew says we need the Torah. Mister Muslim says we need the Qur'an. Mister Hindu says we need the Vedas. Et cetera. And, even though all those scriptures espouse pretty much the very same moral code - i.e. don't kill people, don't steal their stuff, and generally just be nice to each other - we still end up killing each other, because we can't agree on which book is the Right One. Bottom line? No, we don't need The Bible to tell us how to live - just ask a Hindu. They get along just fine without The Bible.

And my personal opinion? If you need a book or a person to tell you what's right and wrong, then there's somethiong seriously wrong with you.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MrTorso on March 25, 2007, 08:22:56 PM
And my personal opinion? If you need a book or a person to tell you what's right and wrong, then there's somethiong seriously wrong with you.

 :clap: :clap:
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 25, 2007, 08:31:16 PM
Quote
Mister Christian says that society needs the Bible for a moral code

not really.  This is the common misconception so im not surprised to see this.  However chrisianity is not a code of ethics.  Not really.  Thats the whole point, if it was MERELY a code of ethics it wouldnt be important at all. 

ps this is covered pretty darned well in the first couple chapters of mere christianity, if anyone wishes to read a REAL intellectual man. 

Quote
EDIT:  I argued the penn and tiller episode as best, and in reflection the worst, I could.  I have much to train in my debating. My earlier posts were devoid of any wanting of debate so I became an asshat in responding to criticism raised.

thanks for clarifying.  (i mean it)  it too rare that people apologize.  
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 25, 2007, 08:49:11 PM
Quote
Mister Christian says that society needs the Bible for a moral code

not really.  This is the common misconception so im not surprised to see this.  However chrisianity is not a code of ethics.  Not really.  Thats the whole point, if it was MERELY a code of ethics it wouldnt be important at all. 

I understand that Christianity, and most religions, are belief systems incorporating, but not limited to, a moral code. However, I've had many a so-called Christian tell me that I am a sinner and will go to Hell simply for not believing Jesus was the son of God, etc... That's pretty much my general problem with Christianity  - the "if you don't believe us you're going to Hell" crap. I love Jesus. He was a smart, cool dude. I happily follow everything he preached up until the "God is my dad" part. And frankly, if I live a good, virtuous life but don't get into Heaven because I didn't get down on my knees and worship God... Well, y'know what? I don't think I want to go there anyway if he's gonna be such a jerk.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 12:26:43 AM
I ask where we can go for a moral code besides the Bible because it is the most obvious answer to ask.

Choice?


And my personal opinion? If you need a book or a person to tell you what's right and wrong, then there's somethiong seriously wrong with you.

I concur fully.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 12:56:06 AM
Quote
And my personal opinion? If you need a book or a person to tell you what's right and wrong, then there's somethiong seriously wrong with you.

since everyone wants to banty this around so much lets REALLY examine it.  Does this mean that people intrinsically know what right and wrong is?  Further is it a genetic thing?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 01:44:45 AM
To me it means making behavioral decisions based on your own thoughts and ideas is more valid than doing something  because you read it in a book.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 02:06:14 AM
any particular reasoning behind it? 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 02:51:11 AM
One is a conscious decision based on personal belief on what is right or wrong and acting that way because you feel it's the appropriate way to behave, the other is blindly following a rulebook because you think you'll be punished if you don't and rewarded if you do.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 03:47:32 AM
thats assuming too much,  the concept of reward punishment heaven or hell is the 5 year old understanding of Christian theology (not meant as an insult). 

even if we assume that it is a punishment reward logic, how is it any different from blindly following something you merely feel like doing because you've been conditioned to feel that way by your environment? 

You make the statement that its a conscious decision but you say that the religious "blindly" follow as if their will or decisions never happened.  But the truth is that both are conscious decisions of belief.  If anything the religious man must make a harder choice because he has to follow something that may not agree with his personal feeling at a particular moment.  It would be much easier to just ignore it than to actually believe it. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 03:54:55 AM
why would I be insulted by being compared to a 5 year old?

No, I think making your own choice is far harder than having the crutch of a 'guide' you can blame or fall back on.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 04:00:16 AM
i think the guide is harder because it clearly disagrees with you, its usually easy to do what you already want to do.  which means that point is nearly at an impasse if weve come to the "I think this" and "I think that" stage of a debate.  Is there any rationale weve missed here?

Quote
why would I be insulted by being compared to a 5 year old?

didnt mean to compare you to a 5yr old.  i meant thats what is usally taught to children.  Its not a very deep understanding of christian theology at all. 

im still curious about these questions:
Quote
Does this mean that people intrinsically know what right and wrong is?  Further is it a genetic thing?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 04:12:21 AM
My question is if you disagree with something enough for that to be a major consideration then why believe in it or follow it at all?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 26, 2007, 05:10:38 AM
since everyone wants to banty this around so much lets REALLY examine it.  Does this mean that people intrinsically know what right and wrong is?  Further is it a genetic thing?

I know I've talked about Dawkins here before, and he has a lot of interesting points to make about why morality can be hereditary. Survival of our own species is the main culprit. Back when we lived in smaller tribes with our own kin, which of course included elders, siblings and children, it was only natural that we would want to protect our gene-sharers from harm. If one of them were to fall into a river, it was instinct to try and scoop them out of harm's way. One might argue that we don't live in small bands anymore so the tightness of the group is gone, but the instinct is still there, a product of evolution, because it was beneficial to the survival of our species.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 05:30:20 AM
Quote
My question is if you disagree with something enough for that to be a major consideration then why believe in it or follow it at all?

You saying youve NEVER done something that you didnt already want to do?  Sometimes your wants are overruled by other things. 

Quote
know I've talked about Dawkins here before, and he has a lot of interesting points to make about why morality can be hereditary. Survival of our own species is the main culprit. Back when we lived in smaller tribes with our own kin, which of course included elders, siblings and children, it was only natural that we would want to protect our gene-sharers from harm. If one of them were to fall into a river, it was instinct to try and scoop them out of harm's way. One might argue that we don't live in small bands anymore so the tightness of the group is gone, but the instinct is still there, a product of evolution, because it was beneficial to the survival of our species.

If it is genetic what does that mean when things like genocide happens?  Does he say something are actually wrong or just merely instinctual suggestion?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 26, 2007, 06:51:54 AM
He doesn't really make a point to explain "why" genocide happens, because I think that's something no one can answer. Except to say, much more lavishly, that there are always a few bad apples in the bunch.

I love Chris Rock's famous line - "what ever happened to CRAZY?" Some people are just nuts, whether they are religious or not. It's interesting that you bring up genocide, though - Hitler was Christian  and Mussolini (I've read somewhere) had ties to the Vatican. Some argue that he was atheist. If that's true then it's plausible that evil happens on both sides of the aisle, religious or not.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 06:58:44 AM
He doesn't really make a point to explain "why" genocide happens, because I think that's something no one can answer. Except to say, much more lavishly, that there are always a few bad apples in the bunch.

Except for just explaining genetics, that it's a random process and there's no guarentee you're going to inheret every positive trait like morals but you're just more likely to since I'm assuming if it is genetic that it's dominant....  And the idea of it being genetic seems entirely possible to me given psychopaths and etc.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 26, 2007, 07:00:59 AM
It's true, if alcoholism (sometimes described as a disease, sometimes described as a mental condition) can be inherited genetically, what else can be transferred to new generations in the same way?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 07:04:15 AM
And randomly back on topic, Penn & Teller actually did an episode on Alcoholics Anonymous and had a couple people debating on whether alcoholism is a disease or not...  And coincidentally, they also attempted to prove that AA is essentially a religion.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 26, 2007, 07:07:32 AM
Well when you look at the 12 steps, it does smack of religion.

#6.[We are] entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.

#11. [We have] sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him, praying only for knowledge of His will for us and the power to carry that out.

All of them are here: http://www.serenityfound.org/steps.html

I wouldn't mind carrying on the morality debate, but perhaps in another topic, if someone would like to start it. I won't ban anyone. It's a really important question, just make sure it doesn't become a flame war, ok?

I would also recommend the Boy Scouts episode from last season. Very enlightening.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 07:29:11 AM
I'm not trying to take it full off course, I just found the connection to the actual topic funny...

But yeah, and it was great watching them try to cover up I think step 2, "2. Came to believe that a Power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity." by saying the greater power could be anything and most of them used the example of a tree  :D  ....  I liked on Lucky Louie when he was forced into AA and it's his turn to speak and he says that he's realized that he's not powerless, he's just an asshole.


I wasn't aware of all the Boy Scouts stuff though till I saw that episode, enlightening is indeed a good word for that one.....
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 07:51:15 AM
Dang! We went from Penn and Teller to social debate??

This happens too often =P

My stab:

Counter 1:
"And my personal opinion? If you need a book or a person to tell you what's right and wrong, then there's somethiong seriously wrong with you."


This argument is well-engraved in the belief that through personal reflection, one may find truth for oneself, free of any other doctrine or dogma getting in the way of personal enlightenment. The reason I take issue with the above (incredibly general) statement is thus: In order to understand /anything/, one must be educated. If you isolate a small child for his/her entire life up through the teen years, he/she will have no concept of what good or bad behavior is (it's been done). If you don't seek out some way to feed your intellect, your intellect will not be fed.

And on this subject, I'd say that just about everyone is told to believe something by someone else, which is how social trends have gotten the way that they are. For example: Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert -- nowadays, it's nearly impossible to have a discussion about anything political with a "youth" or "young adult" without one of these two men's opinions being mirrored by someone in the discourse. It should therefore be noted that while we have no control over how the world tries influences us, we have the ability to choose /what/ we turn to for influence.

Counter 2:
"How do you get philosophy from a vengeful, murderous being such as the god of the old testament?"


The God of the old testament is no different from the God of the New Testament. The difference between the two testaments is never claimed to be that the Father "changed." Absolutely not. As Christ said "I did not come to change the law, but to fulfill it." This underscores the major difference between the two testaments: Christ's redeeming presence. Now, regardless of whether or not you believe in the Christian religion, it is valuable to note that why things are apparently "different" regarding God's reaction to sinfulness is /not/ because He changed, but because Christ's sacrifice removes the sins of all who believe in Him.

As for God being "murderous" and "vengeful," and resultantly being impossible to follow in the incredibly moral sense of religion and Faith, the overall idea of good and evil from the beginning of time has always been "every action has a consequence." Actions without consequence simply don't exist, and God supports this idea with different consequences for righteousness and immorality. In the case of Pharaoh Ramses, whose firstborn was taken by the Angel of Death during the last plague of Moses, it is incredibly significant to note that God sent a messenger to tell Pharoah several times to let free his slaves or else a temporal punishment would be wrought upon his kingdom. Nine warning were given and ignored before the final retribution.

Counter 3:
"oh, yeah, that part about loving they neighbor is great for what i believe in. but the part about killing kids and raping women, and god seeking justice. that can't possibly be true, since it doesn't make sense to MY OWN BELIEFS. i guess i'll ignore it.."


I'm sorry you've gotten this sort of response from an uneducated apologetic, because this should never be the attitude of an evangelist.... However, if you are referring to the Old Testament God, then I think you've mishandled how things in the old testament are presented. To the best of my knowledge, rape was never condoned by God. Just because some of His chosen people did it, doesn't mean He didn't punish them for it. In fact, many of the patriarchs of the Old Testament were punished just as severely, if not more so, than the Egyptians were for their transgressions.

When God sent the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sanai, He was giving firm commandments to His people on how they /should/ live. But the people didn't always do that, and third parties didn't always respect it. Thusly, civil wars that erupted throughout the Kingdoms of Israel resulted from disobedience, and wars were fought with other countries to stop attempts of foreign invasion. Also something to consider is what society was like back in that time, in that culture. We look upon some of the images in the Old Testament with modern, western eyes, and turn away in disgust. Yet a movie like "The Last Samurai" comes out and no criticism is given toward the way the Japanese kill themselves and slice off their heads because of shameful defeat in battle.

Counter 4:
"So the god who holds us accountable for the sin of a man who lived thousands of years ago, shouldn't expect his history to be at all relevant? "


Adam and Eve are representative of everyone's sinfulness. Catholics believe that Jesus wasn't simply a plan B, he was the one and only plan that God always and forever knew would /have/ to happen. That being said, I don't understand God's logic to be: "Because Adam sinned, all of humanity must be doomed to hellfire unless..."

The way I understand God's reasoning is thus: "Adam and Eve sinned. So do their children, and their children's children. They will all be sinners from now until the end of time, but they still understand and yearn for dignity, so I will give them the option of believing in me and my Son to save them." In the end, we are held accountable for our own sins, not Adam's. Blame can never be placed on the father for the son's wrongdoings (which we see through several lines of kings in teh Old Testament).

Counter 5:
(General Counter)


I just want to say that I'm sorry on behalf of any Christian who claims to be preaching the word when really they are just painting a negative stereotype for the rest of us. I was told a story the other day about a Franciscan Monk who used to preach at my church here in California:

This monk (Father Ben) and three of his monk friends decided they wanted to reach out one day to the youth of America. They got together to think of what they could -- where do young kids hang out these days? They thought and they thought, and decided: Fort Lauderdale at Spring Break! so they packed up an old old van, pooled their rations together and bought an igloo container filled with water, along with a bunch of oranges, which they sliced on the way.

Upon arriving several hundred miles away from their abby at Fort Lauderdale, they were shocked at what they saw. On the sidewalk ahead of them was a man with an open bible spitting rhetoric at the faces of young collegiates walking by. Down the street was a man with a faux crown of thorns on his head, carrying a big wooden cross on his shoulders, wearing a sign that said "this blood was for you" around his neck. There were others doing similar things of a non-inviting and very aggressive nature, which floored this group of monks! And of course, so many people were simply turned away.

They set up their table, placing the igloo container of water and the sliced oranges on top, and started calling out "Free water and snacks!" And people flocked over (not that it was needed because a bunch of dudes in brown habits wearing cords around their waists is hard to miss anyway!). The result was fantastic: hundreds of people came (the water obviously needing to be refilled =P) and people got what they needed. some people were intrigued by the monks and asked questions about their Faith. Some weren't at all, it didn't matter to them. But the monks were satisfied knowing that they served by providing that which was needed, and God worked through all that.

So basically - most of the time, it is not a good idea to look at the believers and judge God based on us, cuz a lot of us aren't using the right tactics.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MasterChief on March 26, 2007, 08:19:05 AM
thanks for the thoughts, j-proof. but i think if god's own believers and followers don't pay attention to his laws, what does that say of them? and of their belief system? if they took it seriously enough, you would think they'd be better followers.

and as far as god punishing them after giving fair warning - who wants to worship that type of deity? "i love you, but i'm going to send you to hell for this." god may not have condoned raping, but there are plenty of examples of him condoning violence and killing people for the sake of pleasuring him. or the sake of "tempting faith" in at least one example.

why does a god need such vindication? isn't being a good person enough?

and if god does seek to punish people based on their actions, why are there so many examples of many innocent people being slaughtered? why wipe out the entire city of new orleans, instead of just the homosexuals that are such a sin against god?

i enjoyed your story about the monks, and how doing the good deed far overshadowed the doomsayers and the religious extremists. unfortunately, the people who practice what they preach are few and far between. there are more bigoted christians like pat robertson and his followers, making a bad name for the rest of the religious folk, than there are good monks and missionaries helping to aid their fellow humans.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 08:27:25 AM
thanks for the thoughts, j-proof. but i think if god's own believers and followers don't pay attention to his laws, what does that say of them? and of their belief system? if they took it seriously enough, you would think they'd be better followers.

and as far as god punishing them after giving fair warning - who wants to worship that type of deity? "i love you, but i'm going to send you to hell for this." god may not have condoned raping, but there are plenty of examples of him condoning violence and killing people for the sake of pleasuring him. or the sake of "tempting faith" in at least one example.

why does a god need such vindication? isn't being a good person enough?

and if god does seek to punish people based on their actions, why are there so many examples of many innocent people being slaughtered? why wipe out the entire city of new orleans, instead of just the homosexuals that are such a sin against god?

i enjoyed your story about the monks, and how doing the good deed far overshadowed the doomsayers and the religious extremists. unfortunately, the people who practice what they preach are few and far between. there are more bigoted christians like pat robertson and his followers, making a bad name for the rest of the religious folk, than there are good monks and missionaries helping to aid their fellow humans.

Yeah I see how it's hard to look upon /any/ faith really and embrace it (especially if you weren't raised in that Faith).

I am definitely not trying to condemn anyone who doesn't agree with my belief system (leastwise here in a Penn and Teller thread on a mike Nelson forum lol) , and I understand your logic (though I don't agree with it ;) )

When all is said and done, I think this question: "isn't being a good person enough?" is a very vital question to society. What is being a good person? Whose standards matter? What is the measurement of good and bad? If all is relative, than how can anyone be considered wrong or right?

The question of "isn't being a good person enough?" needs to be researched and understood by everyone, so that a totally educated and informed response can be acquired beyond that of the human instinct.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 08:55:20 AM
When God sent the Ten Commandments to Moses on Mount Sanai, He was giving firm commandments to His people on how they /should/ live. But the people didn't always do that, and third parties didn't always respect it. Thusly, civil wars that erupted throughout the Kingdoms of Israel resulted from disobedience, and wars were fought with other countries to stop attempts of foreign invasion. Also something to consider is what society was like back in that time, in that culture. We look upon some of the images in the Old Testament with modern, western eyes, and turn away in disgust. Yet a movie like "The Last Samurai" comes out and no criticism is given toward the way the Japanese kill themselves and slice off their heads because of shameful defeat in battle.

Great post though I don't entirely agree with all of it.... My only real problem with it though is the comparison of The Last Samurai and the bible above...  That's a pretty odd comparison seeing as the disgust of the culture the Old Testament has to do with mostly with the idea that it's there alongside other passages being used against gays and etc.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Pak-Man on March 26, 2007, 09:01:48 AM

I just want to say that I'm sorry on behalf of any Christian who claims to be preaching the word when really they are just painting a negative stereotype for the rest of us...

That's the sad irony of it all. Its the ones who proclaim to be super-devout that make us Christians look like a bunch of babbling psychos. I really can't blame a lot of the people who don't take it seriously when the ones that preach loudest are also preaching the most garbage. Christianity gets a bad stigma from people who think they're doing God's work, and proclaim to be doing God's work, but actually end up ignoring God all together to serve their own ends. I don't think God looks as kindly on those people as those people would like to think.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 09:13:24 AM
Ah -- I see.

I was trying to explain in so few words that there were social conventions at the time that have since changed for westerners. Things that we find unreasonable now, were not always unreasonable to those people. The principle of what is good and bad has not changed, the practices around that idea have evolved.

God also wasn't narrow-sighted when it came to gay people versus straight people. King David was a womanizer and murderer (his son Solomon was a /wise/ murderer). But what made the difference wasn't that one cardinal sin was worse than the other. God didn't say, "Well, homosexuality is most evil of the evils, so there's no hope for those guys." He said, "Anyone that repents can come back to me whenever they want." Which is what David and Solomon, and a score of other patriarchs did.

As for whether or not something actually /is/ "sinful" or "wrong" that discussion is entirely different, and is subjective in debate where relativism goes against universality. A fun discussion, nonetheless!

In the end, my only plea is for people to be open not just to their own beliefs but to everyone's beliefs. I am a Christian, and wish not to be judged by the way any other Christian may or may not live their lives, but based solely and completely on how /I/ live /my/ life. We must remember that all people are flawed in many ways, and that we cannot accurately depict the greatness of this God we worship all the time -- so throw us a bone, man!

And again, I'm sorry if someone in your past threw a bible at your face and spat on you, cuz the only spitting Jeuss ever did was to cure someone's blindness -- never to scorn.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 09:14:37 AM

I just want to say that I'm sorry on behalf of any Christian who claims to be preaching the word when really they are just painting a negative stereotype for the rest of us...

That's the sad irony of it all. Its the ones who proclaim to be super-devout that make us Christians look like a bunch of babbling psychos. I really can't blame a lot of the people who don't take it seriously when the ones that preach loudest are also preaching the most garbage. Christianity gets a bad stigma from people who think they're doing God's work, and proclaim to be doing God's work, but actually end up ignoring God all together to serve their own ends. I don't think God looks as kindly on those people as those people would like to think.

Amen. And also a disclaimer: We are NOT pointign fingers at anyone on this board. I think this board is full of incredibly intelligent folk, willing to discuss rationally.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Rude on March 26, 2007, 09:17:14 AM
...

Um, so... yeah. Penn & Teller are pretty cool, huh?

-Rude
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 09:17:58 AM
I rmemeber this one trick where they made a woman's nipple disappear and reappear..... that was bizarre.....
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 26, 2007, 01:13:32 PM
You saying youve NEVER done something that you didnt already want to do?  Sometimes your wants are overruled by other things. 

yes but that's usually due to a law or something, not a hypothetical rulebook.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 01:35:55 PM
yes but that's usually due to a law or something, not a hypothetical rulebook.

I guess you could say that laws are all parts of hypothetical rulebooks... I mean, who's to say a law is just or unjust if it is simply selected by the masses in regards to their own relative points of view?

AAAAAAAAH
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 26, 2007, 04:09:51 PM
Reality is what you can get away with...

Dudes, I was just outside collecting my recyclables and just enjoying a brisk spring evening and I looked up and saw a bright Half Moon, (Mezzaluna, an excellent italian vodka, btw!), and a few stars were hanging from a glowing, indigo sky and the breeze was sweet and the trees were sighing... I just said, "Thank you!".  That's all the religion you should ever need.

Peace.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 04:28:31 PM
you can always just worship the sun.... or monsters
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 26, 2007, 04:43:30 PM
you can always just worship the sun.... or monsters

In fact, I DO worship the Sun, AND monsters!  Way to be insightfully ironic!  LOL!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 26, 2007, 04:56:27 PM
Thank you J-proof and Sarcasm, you two were able to say what I thought but was unable to say.  I have much to learn in apologetics, and I hope any of you will rebuke me if I say something you feel is not Biblical.  I can only grow if I am corrected.

My wish is to use my potential to the fullest God wishes for me, and I am scared of becoming an inadvertant false prophet.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 05:04:27 PM
you can always just worship the sun.... or monsters

In fact, I DO worship the Sun, AND monsters!  Way to be insightfully ironic!  LOL!

You sound like a perfect candidate for Carlinism or Monsterology.... or whatever the Carlin one my friend made up is.... and I'm starting to think I promote Monsterology more than the Rev himself
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 26, 2007, 05:16:07 PM
you can always just worship the sun.... or monsters

In fact, I DO worship the Sun, AND monsters!  Way to be insightfully ironic!  LOL!

You sound like a perfect candidate for Carlinism or Monsterology.... or whatever the Carlin one my friend made up is.... and I'm starting to think I promote Monsterology more than the Rev himself

What extremes of monsters are we talking about here?  Classical ones like the werewolf, boogey man, or the ever popular Death?  Or are we talking about humans who went nutty, started killing people, and found immortality somehow like Jason, Freddy, and Chucky?

EDIT:  Ironically, I was afraid of Chucky as a kid until I actually watched it.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 26, 2007, 05:23:06 PM
Werewolves and etc... He talks a lot in the pamphlettes about wolfman and dracula and etc....


I never was allowed to watch any of those as a kid...  But then again I wasn't even allowed to watch The Simpsons in 6th grade.... but then again I had been watching South Park since 3rd grade... 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 26, 2007, 05:33:50 PM
I've never been a horror fan personally, most just aren't psychological enough for me.  Even the critically acclaimed ones feel empty to my interests.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 09:19:12 PM
imo, one of the BEST classic monster flicks is the origianl Lon Cheney version of PHANTOM OF THE OPERA.

I suppose there's a satisfying amount of psychological depth in that character...

"THE MUMMY" with Karloff is also quite wonderful in terms of psychological horror.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 09:48:02 PM
man you got to love these boards, i know i do.  someone who is more educated than me should use them as a study of conversation.   We went from penn and teller to the bible to relativism back to the bible to horror movies.  i love it. 

as to classical horror botom line for me is either nosferatu or the cabinent of dr caligari.


Quote
Thank you J-proof and Sarcasm, you two were able to say what I thought but was unable to say.  I have much to learn in apologetics, and I hope any of you will rebuke me if I say something you feel is not Biblical.  I can only grow if I am corrected.

thanks for the kind words.  I still say anything written by C.S Lewis is a great starting point.  Especially Mere Christianity. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on March 26, 2007, 09:55:43 PM
Seconds on "Mere Christianity." Tis a fantastic read. And Screwtape Letters is of course a standard for uplifting the spirit!

I also second Nosferatu --- ashamed to say I forgot all about the pointy-eared bugger!

I have a question posed in the Zack Snyder thread about why shooting a zombie in the head matters in movies... I mean, logically it shouldn't.... right? I mean... .RIGHT?? The zombie isn't really /relying/ on the brain for anything is it? =

They should have classes in zombie mythology -- a few people form this board would have honorary PhDs by now...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on March 26, 2007, 10:02:03 PM
I was just outside collecting my recyclables and just enjoying a brisk spring evening and I looked up and saw a bright Half Moon, (Mezzaluna, an excellent italian vodka, btw!), and a few stars were hanging from a glowing, indigo sky and the breeze was sweet and the trees were sighing... I just said, "Thank you!".  That's all the religion you should ever need.

Peace.

 :clap: Debate ended.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 26, 2007, 10:04:37 PM
your post makes me think of a book series i like (and since we have no concrete topics here) The book series the (blank) and philosophy series.  The best one currently is the simpsons and philosophy although i do have harry potter and phil as well.  Sersiously great books and things like relativitsm come up often in them.  They are usually interesting reads.  Well anyways they need to do a monsters and phil one.  (and a House MD and phil one)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Reductio_ad_absurdum on March 27, 2007, 04:25:38 AM
Seconds on "Mere Christianity." Tis a fantastic read. And Screwtape Letters is of course a standard for uplifting the spirit!

I also second Nosferatu --- ashamed to say I forgot all about the pointy-eared bugger!

I have a question posed in the Zack Snyder thread about why shooting a zombie in the head matters in movies... I mean, logically it shouldn't.... right? I mean... .RIGHT?? The zombie isn't really /relying/ on the brain for anything is it? =

They should have classes in zombie mythology -- a few people form this board would have honorary PhDs by now...

I have a few of Lewis' books around here, along with Narnia.  I am a huge fan of the writer that influenced C.S. Lewis' conversion, G.k. Chesterton, as all the quotes I say express that.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ScottotD on March 27, 2007, 04:33:27 AM
I have a question posed in the Zack Snyder thread about why shooting a zombie in the head matters in movies... I mean, logically it shouldn't.... right? I mean... .RIGHT?? The zombie isn't really /relying/ on the brain for anything is it? =

They should have classes in zombie mythology -- a few people form this board would have honorary PhDs by now...

I agree. 

I think the basic Romero idea is that that while they don't need to breathe or eat (at least for nutrition) the brain controls the body itself still and a mutation (or whatever) of the brain itself it what's caused the re-animation.  Max Brooks (surely the lecturer of any Zombie Mythology class) goes into some fantastic detail in the Survival Guide.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Compound on March 27, 2007, 08:24:30 AM

I have a question posed in the Zack Snyder thread about why shooting a zombie in the head matters in movies... I mean, logically it shouldn't.... right? I mean... .RIGHT?? The zombie isn't really /relying/ on the brain for anything is it? =

They should have classes in zombie mythology -- a few people form this board would have honorary PhDs by now...

Simple answer: The zombies may in fact still be using the brain. Using the Romero zombies as an example, we've got evidence in two of the films that the zombies have at least some higher brain functions. (Bub in "Day" and the Mechanic in "Land". Leguzamo's character also showed a bit of intelligence after turning as well.) And the zombies in "Dawn" retained enough memories to want to head to the mall.  Speaking off the top of my head, the zombification process may simply shut off the higher brain functions and leave the simpler parts of the brain (the motor controls, the drive to feed, the autonomous functions, etc) working. (which goes along nicely with historical accounts of zombies having enough intelligence to do simple tasks.) And shooting the brain will stop those functions as well, shutting the zombie down.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on March 27, 2007, 08:34:12 AM
Yeah, that's why they still rot, because the only thing driving them is a living brain, (but apparently that slowly decays as well, just the feeding process keeps it going longer than the other parts).  Kill the brain the zombie goes down.  That's the simple, elegant Romero style...

But there is another that was popularized in "Return of the Living Dead" that one is still a bit of a mystery to me.  Many zombie movies have done this, but I can't really see the rationale for it.  These zombies seem to be some kind of "hive life" and if you cut off the hand, or an arm, or another body part, it will still run around on it's own.

Evil Dead did this of course, but that was an easy explanation: Demon Magicalness!!  It's the perfect plot vehicle because you can imagine a demon being able to pull off just about anything.  But the more biological explanation doesn't really seem to have a good excuse for seperate body parts moving around in a severed state.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on March 31, 2007, 03:55:17 PM
sorry folks, but back on topic; This week was A LOT better than lasts, it didn't seem as flawed and they actually let the other side speak
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 31, 2007, 04:08:50 PM
Yeah I disagree with some of what they said, being from a small town I have seen the Wal-Mart "competition" go down in flames because they have to charge MORE to stay afloat, due to the lack of business. People saving money and using that to further stimulate the economy is a good theory, but I'm not sure how practical it is.

But I do agree that they give jobs to people who might otherwise not be able to fend for themselves, which is nice.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on March 31, 2007, 04:23:39 PM
Sorry, TP, but I grew up in a small town, and the "mom & pop" stores that everyone lionizes were, in my experience, places that charged outrageous prices for very limited selection, where the staff had no problem openly casting a glance askance at customers who might have looked "different." Last time I visited my mom, I was relieved to find that the town now has a Wal-Mart, where I could find the merchandise I was looking for, at a price I found satisfactory.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 31, 2007, 04:28:52 PM
I'm not saying that the mom and pop stores should have, or should not have, been forced to struggle, or were good for charging more, etc. etc. I think for the "niche" stores it's a little different, like the corner shop that sells the young kid his first guitar for cheap as opposed to the Guitar World that will sell him a shitty guitar for a higher price. That's a different situation altogether.

I think the Big Box stores ARE a good thing, but I don't believe the money people are saving there is being used to stimulate the economy in their little villages where the mom and pop stores tend to thrive.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 31, 2007, 07:12:22 PM
im currently reading a rather odd jack london book called the Iron Heel.  Its a book about socialism told in a sort of sci fi way.  One of the arguments he makes is that defending mom and pop stores against the trusts ( we can put walmart in there) is silly and counter productive, he argues that clearly trusts do things more efficently than the mom and pop places and since the only complaint the mom and pops can raise is that they now no longer have the opportunity to squeeze profits from the OTHER mom and pop places because the trusts have squeezed them, means that they no longer have a place in this economy.  Of course he goes on to say the next logical step is for the people to take over the trusts and make a sort of super trust ala communism, and thats where i idsagree but its still an interesting read.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on March 31, 2007, 08:18:22 PM
Exactly, Penn and Teller even had these two people who were arguing that same (from what I can recall) point. They said the big box stores were bad for capitalism, and what they were describing as being better was a socialist ideology. Kind of strange when you look at it that way, but sometimes people aren't quite sure what they're arguing.

I love shows like this, though, that - whether or not you believe or agree with their argument - it does get you talking, and in my case, considering other angles & viewpoints I hadn't even taken into consideration.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 31, 2007, 08:23:53 PM
actually i think london was making the case that it was good for the capitolism (in merely economic senses) but bad for the people and thats why socialism would be next.  Of course london wrote it in the earlier stages of the industrial revolution.  I wonder what he would think of the world now.  i also wonder which he wrote first, the sea wolf or the Iron Heel
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on April 01, 2007, 05:39:43 AM
Exactly, Penn and Teller even had these two people who were arguing that same (from what I can recall) point. They said the big box stores were bad for capitalism, and what they were describing as being better was a socialist ideology. Kind of strange when you look at it that way, but sometimes people aren't quite sure what they're arguing.

Exactly right. And this happens a lot. If you want to bring up a real criticism of Wal-Mart you could point out that they have, on occasion, sponsored eminent domain abuse by local governments, by getting politicians to condemn privately-owned land that was wanted for a new Wal-Mart. On the other hand, as much as this pisses me off, the TRUE culprit in these cases are the politicians, who shouldn't have such power to begin with (and, of course, the Supreme Court, for their insane, indefensible decision on Kelo V. New London).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 01, 2007, 08:03:55 PM
The point is that monopolies of any kind end up being bad for the common man, whether they are the end-game of laissez-faire capitalism or state-run communism/socialism. That's why "anything the free market does = always good and untouchable" is as insane as "anything the state does = always good and untouchable".

As usual, the optimum solution lies in a balance of the two, a grey area that makes many people very uncomfortable, because it means you have to take a stand based on the particular circumstance instead of just knee-jerking into either "the invisible hand of the free market will solve that" or "a government-decreed five year plan will solve that".
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: J-Proof on April 01, 2007, 09:23:04 PM
That's why "anything the free market does = always good and untouchable" is as insane as "anything the state does = always good and untouchable".

^ The above description ("anything the state does = always good and untouchable") is what Waddles whispers in his sleep....
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on April 01, 2007, 10:45:01 PM
I once a sign in a bar window advertising a live performance by the Invisible Hand of Adam Smith. I'm still not sure if that's a really cool or really stupid band name.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on April 02, 2007, 06:24:58 AM
The point is that monopolies of any kind end up being bad for the common man, whether they are the end-game of laissez-faire capitalism or state-run communism/socialism. That's why "anything the free market does = always good and untouchable" is as insane as "anything the state does = always good and untouchable".

As usual, the optimum solution lies in a balance of the two, a grey area that makes many people very uncomfortable, because it means you have to take a stand based on the particular circumstance instead of just knee-jerking into either "the invisible hand of the free market will solve that" or "a government-decreed five year plan will solve that".

Except that monopolies don't happen in a true free-market economy; when people have a genuine choice (i.e. they're not forced into doing business with a particular company by the government; take the way cable TV used to be), there will always be people who will choose other options, sometimes just because the other option is NOT the bigger competitor (would ANYONE use Linux if they didn't hate Microsoft?). Didn't Penn himself say on the episode that he was more of a Target shopper?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: torgosPizza on April 02, 2007, 07:46:09 AM
Yes Penn said he was "more of a Target guy." I think that proves the almost-opposite of your point (I think... your reply us a bit fuzzy) ... there is a choice. Target, and Wal-mart may be the biggest, but they're not the only ones out there. No one is forcing anyone to shop there, so I think your argument about free market is a moot point. It's not the government dictating who shops where, as they said in the BS episode, it really comes down to the customers and their demand. If everyone thought it was a bad idea, those stores probably wouldn't be as popular as they are.

I think Teaflax has the idea - as with MOST ideas, the optimal solution is in a grey zone. I can get along perfectly fine for months without having to visit a Wally's or a Target - there are plenty of stores that carry what they do, but without the convenience of the "under one roof" philosophy.

Beenie, I think you are confusing government-run command economics with the political atmosphere that encompasses everything these days. It's a shame that so much happens or exists because of a bottom line somewhere. But I will confess, I like the fact that I can go to a Target and shop for shoes and tires at the same time.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on April 02, 2007, 02:53:37 PM
(would ANYONE use Linux if they didn't hate Microsoft?).

I've never seen the attraction of Linux except for geek cred or if you're a programmer....

unless you're easily influenced by this

(http://www.fegor.com/media/girl_linux.jpg)

which if that makes you use an OS, then you're right back to the geek thing.... (that slogan's not really that great for them though)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on April 02, 2007, 04:41:14 PM
(would ANYONE use Linux if they didn't hate Microsoft?).

I've never seen the attraction of Linux except for geek cred or if you're a programmer....

unless you're easily influenced by this

(http://www.fegor.com/media/girl_linux.jpg)

which if that makes you use an OS, then you're right back to the geek thing.... (that slogan's not really that great for them though)

HOLY JEEBUS!!!  I never saw that pic before, but it's my new favorite thing in the whole world!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: pyro on April 02, 2007, 04:58:20 PM
you do realize a quick google search will get you pictures like that without the stuff blocking the best parts, right?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on April 02, 2007, 05:10:33 PM
you do realize a quick google search will get you pictures like that without the stuff blocking the best parts, right?

Eh, and a dozen spyware programs and an angry wife.  That's a part of the internet I try to stay away from, (I say "try"... I don't always succeed, but...)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: mrbasehart on April 02, 2007, 05:19:34 PM
you do realize a quick google search will get you pictures like that without the stuff blocking the best parts, right?

Eh, and a dozen spyware programs and an angry wife.  That's a part of the internet I try to stay away from, (I say "try"... I don't always succeed, but...)

Besides, you don't need the internet.  You could just look through your window at the neighbour's TV...   ;D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on April 02, 2007, 05:27:07 PM
you do realize a quick google search will get you pictures like that without the stuff blocking the best parts, right?

Eh, and a dozen spyware programs and an angry wife.  That's a part of the internet I try to stay away from, (I say "try"... I don't always succeed, but...)

Besides, you don't need the internet.  You could just look through your window at the neighbour's TV...   ;D

HEHE!!!  Well remembered, mrbasehart!!!  Well played, sir!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Sharktopus on April 02, 2007, 07:33:07 PM
Target and Wal-Mart aren't quite the same thing. For example, Wal-Mart has a broader selection, while every surface in Target isn't coated in grime.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on April 02, 2007, 07:35:38 PM
Target and Wal-Mart aren't quite the same thing. For example, Wal-Mart has a broader selection, while every surface in Target isn't coated in grime.

I certainly like Target better, for that reason...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 02, 2007, 08:39:28 PM
Except that monopolies don't happen in a true free-market economy;
Cites? Anyone with huge economic leverage can easily use it to stop upstarts from gaining traction. It's basic game theory.

The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on April 02, 2007, 09:55:27 PM
Quote
The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.

same thing happened early industrial revolution, it takes time for balance to be restored in my opinion
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 03, 2007, 12:48:08 AM
Quote
The closest to a truly unregulated free market we've seen here on Earth was Russia post-communism, and that ended up concentrating almost all the wealth into a tiny minority within less than a decade.

same thing happened early industrial revolution, it takes time for balance to be restored in my opinion

And how many generations would you say it would require?

The only way the balance was eventually restored in pretty much every single Western nation was by rather aggressive anti-monopoly laws, workers rights statutes and social welfare systems. The Invisible Hand has yet to prove to be in practice benificial to anyone but the upper echelons of society. You would think that Randian Objectivists would create (or take over) a nation somewhere that operated on such principles. Because if it really is such a superior notion and being incredibly simple to set up, what with requiring only minimal overseeing or policing, it should turn into a prosperous and free nation over a very short period of time. Yet no one has come close, and the times when such situations have arisen, it seems to work not in the favor of the common good at all.

The fallacy is thinking that a corporate entity is somehow inherently moral when it is not. A company - as a construct - has one goal; profit maximization. Any other considerations have to be enforced from within by the heads of the corporation, and to expect all CEOs to be angelic is to be more naive than even the youngest of children. Just as there is need for a police force to reign in the criminal elements of the populace, so you need regulations on the behavior of corporations and enforcement of such. It's a complex and difficult thing to set up, maintain and balance. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RandyMistie on April 03, 2007, 01:00:22 AM
Yes, Teaflax, that's true.  If government regulation hadn't interceded, (because of public outcry), the Carnegies' and the Rockerfeller's would still be using children as slave labor and letting the poor and indigent die in the streets of New York.  There is no inherent obligation of any corporate entity to treat humans as humans as long as it saves them money.

I include myself in that indictment.  I've done things I am certainly not proud of in my business simply because it made me more money.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on April 03, 2007, 01:02:04 AM
Quote
The only way the balance was eventually restored in pretty much every single Western nation was by rather aggressive anti-monopoly laws, workers rights statutes and social welfare systems

i have no problem in thinking those are natural responses to everything that happened in the industrial revolution.  I also have no problem in thinking they are the good things that help create balance that i vaguely and poorly referred to.  


Tea have you read the iron heel by London?  I am reading it right now and its fascinating.  It deals mostly with socialism vs industrial revolution capitolism.  Its a weird and fascinating read.  

Quote
  If government regulation hadn't interceded, (because of public outcry), the Carnegies' and the Rockerfeller's would still be using children as slave labor and letting the poor and indigent die in the streets of New York.

all stuff covered in the iron heel. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 03, 2007, 01:31:43 AM
Wait...

Let me see if I got this right? We're actually agreed that some balance is required and that the free market left to its own devices will not bring about Utopia? Wow. Will wonders never cease?

(Thanks for the book tip, Sarc. I will actually see if I can find it, because it does sound interesting)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on April 03, 2007, 02:15:16 AM
Quote
Let me see if I got this right? We're actually agreed that some balance is required and that the free market left to its own devices will not bring about Utopia? Wow. Will wonders never cease?

yeah tell me about it.  I just think that absolute free capitolism as any true absolute (used in a pragmatist real world sense) is silly.  The gov sanctions/legislation against the monopolies was the NATURAL balance that comes out of it. 

Quote
(Thanks for the book tip, Sarc. I will actually see if I can find it, because it does sound interesting)

the book is crazy pro socialism (which is weird to me after reading the sea wolf) and state control everything (which is weird because i had a silly unfounded veiw that london was pro democracy)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 03, 2007, 03:21:27 AM
The gov sanctions/legislation against the monopolies was the NATURAL balance that comes out of it. 

Except that free market capitalist philosophies like Objectivism and Libertarianism wouldn't agree with that. The only role of government in their view is some minor police work and maintaining an army. End of story; no infrastructure creation or maintenance, absolutely no regulation of the flow of capital and no taxes.

the book is crazy pro socialism (which is weird to me after reading the sea wolf) and state control everything (which is weird because i had a silly unfounded veiw that london was pro democracy)

Socialism isn't by its nature anti-democratic, though. Communism is, however, since it has totalitarianism built in. Very different things.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on April 03, 2007, 03:46:19 AM
this is a 190? or 18?? view of socialism and is very much state controlled everything, thats the view of utopia put forth by the main charectar. 

Quote
Except that free market capitalist philosophies like Objectivism and Libertarianism wouldn't agree with that. The only role of government in their view is some minor police work and maintaining an army. End of story; no infrastructure creation or maintenance, absolutely no regulation of the flow of capital and no taxes.
very true but thats why i said this:
Quote
I just think that absolute free capitolism as any true absolute (used in a pragmatist real world sense) is silly.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Teaflax on April 03, 2007, 04:24:29 AM
Damn it. You're scaring me, Sarc. We're actually on the same page.  ;D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on April 03, 2007, 04:30:28 AM
well thats how i roll.  you cant box me into any one sterotpye.  Im a man of paradox and damn it i like it that way :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on October 10, 2007, 07:09:29 AM
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/rvr2/bs.jpg)
This IS A Very Funny & Informative Show on 'ShowTime' :clap: :clap:
I've got seasons 1-4 on DVD, and Hope they Do More! :D :D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on October 10, 2007, 07:53:13 AM
I only ever saw one full episode. It was the one on circumcision. I need to get it on DVD if we have a boy to remind my wife why it's a barbaric thing to do.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: GregMcduck on October 10, 2007, 09:43:06 AM
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/rvr2/bs.jpg)
This IS A Very Funny & Informative Show on 'ShowTime'

Hmm, that's an interesting way to put it. It's like going:

(http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/993/50166794.JPG)

This IS A Part Of A 'Balanced Breakfast'
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on October 10, 2007, 09:53:00 AM
(http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h275/rvr2/bs.jpg)
This IS A Very Funny & Informative Show on 'ShowTime'

Hmm, that's an interesting way to put it. It's like going:

(http://www.dkimages.com/discover/previews/993/50166794.JPG)

This IS A Part Of A 'Balanced Breakfast'
Why..Yes! Yes it is! ;D
 :D :D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on February 05, 2008, 06:12:55 AM
Anyone know when Season 5 is gonna be released??
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on February 06, 2008, 08:08:24 AM
I haven't seen any news yet. I imagine it'll be sometime close to the premiere of Season 6.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on February 06, 2008, 08:57:42 AM
I haven't seen any news yet. I imagine it'll be sometime close to the premiere of Season 6.
Yeah, cause I see NetFlix has both Penn & Teller Season 5, along with South Park Season 11 listed as 'unknown' currently
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on April 17, 2008, 08:19:14 PM
Season 5 Releases on DVD May 20, 2008
WOO HOO!! :highfive:
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Blueguy on April 17, 2008, 08:29:49 PM
Huh.  Didn't realize it wasn't out yet.  I watched Season 5 on Netflix a few weeks ago. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on April 17, 2008, 08:33:00 PM
I'll catch it on DVD upon my return from my vacation in Mexico May 22 ;D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ShadowDog on April 17, 2008, 09:45:34 PM
So now the question is, when does Season 6 start up?  Last year at this time it was already rolling.  :(
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: GregMcduck on April 18, 2008, 01:16:44 AM
Yeah, the writer's strike put them behind schedule. They should still be rolling by the end of the year.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ShadowDog on April 18, 2008, 01:44:20 AM
That's good news!  Damned writer's strike! :angry:
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 23, 2008, 08:47:17 AM
Well, I got the 1st disc of Season 5 today, and should get disc 2 tomorrow, but there's only 2 discs instead of 3 for Season 5 ???
Is this because of the writer's strike??

..And are they doing a 6th season for sure??
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Courtney on May 23, 2008, 08:50:20 AM
I'm currently Netflixing the whole series.  I watched the first season nonstop last weekend and I'm thinking Memorial Day will be devoted to Season 2. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 23, 2008, 08:51:40 AM
I'm currently Netflixing the whole series.  I watched the first season nonstop last weekend and I'm thinking Memorial Day will be devoted to Season 2. 
It's a GR8 Show Isn't it?!
I've got all the seasons and all of them are funny as Hell!! :D :D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Courtney on May 23, 2008, 09:14:41 AM
This has been talked to death, but the first episode, about the mediums, was brilliant.  Loving the whole show.  And as someone who spent 13 years in private Catholic education, I'm pretty excited for the Bible episode.   Unrelated, but similar, did anyone else see the documentary "For The Bible Tells Me So"?  It's absolutely amazing.  See it.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 23, 2008, 11:22:00 AM
Ok! Just did some research and YES Season 6 is in the works..

From Wikipedia
Quote
Season 6: 2008
# Title Air date Focus and synopsis
6-01 War on Porn June 19, 2008[1] TBA
6-02 New Age Medicine June 26, 2008 TBA
6-03 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-04 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-05 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-06 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-07 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-08 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-09 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA
6-10 TBA TBA, 2008 TBA

The Writers Guild of America strike caused the series to be put on hold, however writing and production has resumed since the strike ended. Season 6 will begin on June 19, 2008. The season will include episodes on topics from dolphins to pornography.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on May 23, 2008, 02:22:51 PM
This has been talked to death, but the first episode, about the mediums, was brilliant.  Loving the whole show.  And as someone who spent 13 years in private Catholic education, I'm pretty excited for the Bible episode.   Unrelated, but similar, did anyone else see the documentary "For The Bible Tells Me So"?  It's absolutely amazing.  See it.

Which bible show? They've done 2 so far, both of them very good. One was centered more on creationism, and the other was just about the bible itself. Both were very good. And they interview one of my main men, Michael Shermer. I'd love to see them do more bible episodes. I grew up southern Baptist, so I just eat that stuff up.

And I can't wait to see the War on Porn episode. That ought to be funny. And by funny, I mean "filled with boobs (double entendre intended)."
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on May 24, 2008, 06:21:28 PM
Well, I got the 1st disc of Season 5 today, and should get disc 2 tomorrow, but there's only 2 discs instead of 3 for Season 5 ???
Is this because of the writer's strike??

Nah. Starting with Season 4, they only do ten episodes a season.


..And are they doing a 6th season for sure??

They're in the writing stages right now (that WAS because of the writers' strike).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 24, 2008, 06:53:05 PM
Well, Season 5 is right in line with the rest so far.. Informative and F'N Hilarious! :D :D

Currently finishing up disc 1, and watching disc 2 straight afterwards 8)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on June 19, 2008, 07:04:24 PM
Aaah! The premiere of Season 6 is tonight!

http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1305032885/bclid1612710032/bctid1612710718 (http://link.brightcove.com/services/link/bcpid1305032885/bclid1612710032/bctid1612710718)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Courtney on June 19, 2008, 07:15:18 PM
Let us know how it is!!  Some of us don't have Showtime and are waiting for the DVD.  Harumph.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Rude on June 19, 2008, 07:15:55 PM
...

Yeah... double harumph!

-Rude
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on June 19, 2008, 08:08:50 PM
Triple That... What y'all said ???
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 18, 2008, 09:57:59 AM
I'm really starting to like this show. I'll have to get it on DVD some time. I loved the show about Manners, The Bible and the 9-11 Conspiracy theories. (Oh, and apologies for reviving this thread, i only just noticed the last post was 2 mo. ago)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on August 18, 2008, 10:41:44 AM
No problem there Johnny..  :)

And welcome back to the forum by the way ;D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on August 18, 2008, 08:37:45 PM
The show has been on fire this season.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 19, 2008, 03:12:02 PM
The show has been on fire this season.

Argh! I only got to see the first couple of episodes because I had to move to Seattle for a couple of months and the hotels they've put me in haven't had Showtime. At least I'll hopefully be back in time to catch it on On Demand.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 20, 2008, 05:39:33 PM
I really liked the episode about Nuclear power... very interesting how it's actually been so inaccurately judged. It was also so funny I nearly burst a major artery.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on August 20, 2008, 06:46:18 PM
What was the upshot of it? Because really NP has a terrible reputation that really it doesn't deserve at all (I'd imagine that that was the upshot really).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 27, 2008, 01:33:58 PM
It's actually a lot safer than rumors and innuendo would have it. Remember 3 mile island? Nobody was injured! And at the time tens of thousands of people lived in close proximity to the plant! Whenever there's been a nuclear accident, the material was contained because the containers are designed to withstand that sort of stress. Nuclear Plants may be vulnerable to nuclear attack but hell, as Penn pointed out so are electrical plants, airports, soccer fields, movie theatres? Why not tear them all down because they sure as hell are all vulnerable to terrorist attack as well. (Sorry for the late reply btw).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 27, 2008, 02:56:15 PM
It's actually a lot safer than rumors and innuendo would have it. Remember 3 mile island? Nobody was injured! And at the time tens of thousands of people lived in close proximity to the plant! Whenever there's been a nuclear accident, the material was contained because the containers are designed to withstand that sort of stress. Nuclear Plants may be vulnerable to nuclear attack but hell, as Penn pointed out so are electrical plants, airports, soccer fields, movie theatres? Why not tear them all down because they sure as hell are all vulnerable to terrorist attack as well. (Sorry for the late reply btw).

It really seems a bit silly to whinge on and on about how coal-powered electricity plants are destroying the environment and then not accept any alternatives, especially when those alternatives are better than anything else we currently have. I blame Jane Fonda.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 27, 2008, 06:09:59 PM
I blame Jane Fonda.
I blame Tomrade Cruise... for everything.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 27, 2008, 06:58:54 PM
I blame Jane Fonda.
I blame Tomrade Cruise... for everything.

I got the need... the need for vodka!

alternatively,

"Take me to the collective dormitories and procreate with me or I will report you to the party."
"Show me the way home, babushka."
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 28, 2008, 06:19:52 AM
I got the need... the need for vodka!
alternatively,
"Take me to the collective dormitories and procreate with me or I will report you to the party."
"Show me the way home, babushka."
Heh heh, good ones. Oh speaking of the devil, I saw a video on youtube a while back showing why Penn & Teller
haven't done an episode on Scientology... YET. Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRYsjMrHnvQ
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on August 28, 2008, 06:26:54 AM
Tellar has such a lovely speaking voice  :D

Also that's got to be a pretty old clip what with the mentioning of Trey and Matt.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: a pretty girl is like on August 28, 2008, 08:29:38 AM
Tellar has such a lovely speaking voice  :D

He would be great in a barbershop quartet I'd bet.  Or hosting Masterpiece Theatre.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Courtney on August 28, 2008, 09:58:52 AM
On the commentary for the Scientology episode, Trey and Matt mentioned that P&T told them they didn't need to do Scientology now because M&T did it so well.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 28, 2008, 10:25:58 AM
I got the need... the need for vodka!
alternatively,
"Take me to the collective dormitories and procreate with me or I will report you to the party."
"Show me the way home, babushka."
Heh heh, good ones. Oh speaking of the devil, I saw a video on youtube a while back showing why Penn & Teller
haven't done an episode on Scientology... YET. Here it is. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yRYsjMrHnvQ

I wonder if that was from TAM. I'd imagine so; I hope to go to that some day. *wistful sigh...*

On the commentary for the Scientology episode, Trey and Matt mentioned that P&T told them they didn't need to do Scientology now because M&T did it so well.

Yeah, Penn has said on many occasions that they won't do an episode of BS on cold reading because The Biggest Douche in the Universe episode exposed it better than they ever could. That might be (depending on the day you ask) my all-time favorite South Park episode because of that.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on August 28, 2008, 10:30:52 AM
Tellar has such a lovely speaking voice  :D

He would be great in a barbershop quartet I'd bet.  Or hosting Masterpiece Theatre.

He'd be a little more animated than the current host...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on August 28, 2008, 01:17:44 PM
On the commentary for the Scientology episode, Trey and Matt mentioned that P&T told them they didn't need to do Scientology now because M&T did it so well.

Yeah, Penn has said on many occasions that they won't do an episode of BS on cold reading because The Biggest Douche in the Universe episode exposed it better than they ever could. That might be (depending on the day you ask) my all-time favorite South Park episode because of that.

Wasn't Cold Reading or at least psychics in general the very FIRST episode of Bullshit? And didn't it specifically feature them slamming the biggest douche in the universe? I'm fairly certain that it was, and did. And it was before that episode of South Park.

I'm just sayin'... :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Destin on August 28, 2008, 02:25:36 PM
Im trying to get my family and friends into Penn and Tellers Bullshit. I have been watching the show religiously for the past few years. And to tell you the truth, they have made such convincing arguments on some of the episodes that it changed the entire way I thought on the subject. Like the death penalty. A great episode for everyone.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 28, 2008, 02:44:42 PM
On the commentary for the Scientology episode, Trey and Matt mentioned that P&T told them they didn't need to do Scientology now because M&T did it so well.

Yeah, Penn has said on many occasions that they won't do an episode of BS on cold reading because The Biggest Douche in the Universe episode exposed it better than they ever could. That might be (depending on the day you ask) my all-time favorite South Park episode because of that.

Wasn't Cold Reading or at least psychics in general the very FIRST episode of Bullshit? And didn't it specifically feature them slamming the biggest douche in the universe? I'm fairly certain that it was, and did. And it was before that episode of South Park.

I'm just sayin'... :)

After looking it up, you're right, but Penn has definitely said that in the past. Maybe he was talking about doing an episode specifically on cold reading? I dunno. I just know what he said when he was talking to Trey Parker on his (now sadly defunct) radio show.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: ManUnderMask on August 28, 2008, 02:51:44 PM
Remember the episode on Nostradamus? It had that guy on there who wrote the book proclaiming the Ayatollah as the anti-jeebus, and when the Ayatollah died, made a new edition claiming it was Saddam? The guy who said Mabus was W. Bush? He was on a show on the History Channel about Nostradamus and said that Mabus was actually an amalgam of OsaMA and BUSh.   ::)

Guess he saw the episode and his verbal spanking by Randi.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Compound on August 28, 2008, 05:34:01 PM
Just a heads up:

The evil, evil folks at Walmart have a sale on the series (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=penn+teller) right now. Season 1 is $17.96, and seasons 2-5 are $14.96. 
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 28, 2008, 06:04:12 PM
Remember the episode on Nostradamus? It had that guy on there who wrote the book proclaiming the Ayatollah as the anti-jeebus, and when the Ayatollah died, made a new edition claiming it was Saddam? The guy who said Mabus was W. Bush? He was on a show on the History Channel about Nostradamus and said that Mabus was actually an amalgam of OsaMA and BUSh.   ::)

Guess he saw the episode and his verbal spanking by Randi.

I prefer to believe that Mabus is a Bea Arthur Transformer (I'll let you figure that one out).

Just a heads up:

The evil, evil folks at Walmart have a sale on the series (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=penn+teller) right now. Season 1 is $17.96, and seasons 2-5 are $14.96. 

Mine better be put together in a sweat shop!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 28, 2008, 06:57:44 PM
Just a heads up:
The evil, evil folks at Walmart have a sale on the series (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=penn+teller) right now. Season 1 is $17.96, and seasons 2-5 are $14.96. 
Damn, they're only available online! Now THAT is bullshit.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on August 28, 2008, 07:00:38 PM
Just a heads up:
The evil, evil folks at Walmart have a sale on the series (http://www.walmart.com/search/search-ng.do?search_constraint=0&ic=48_0&search_query=penn+teller) right now. Season 1 is $17.96, and seasons 2-5 are $14.96. 
Damn, they're only available online! Now THAT is bullshit.
Spoiler (click to show/hide)
8)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on August 28, 2008, 07:17:01 PM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on August 28, 2008, 07:23:42 PM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
he he ;D

yeah..
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 29, 2008, 06:41:32 PM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
he he ;D
yeah..
Yes but would they be against it or for it? Aye, there's the rub.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on August 29, 2008, 06:47:19 PM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
he he ;D
yeah..
Yes but would they be against it or for it? Aye, there's the rub.
I think they'd be 'for' it for your own personal use (like VHS tapes back in the day..)

And 'Against' it for selling burned copies, or uploading to t o r r e n t sites.. :-\
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on August 29, 2008, 07:37:31 PM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
he he ;D
yeah..
Yes but would they be against it or for it? Aye, there's the rub.
I think they'd be 'for' it for your own personal use (like VHS tapes back in the day..)

And 'Against' it for selling burned copies, or uploading to t o r r e n t sites.. :-\

Penn's talked about it before on his radio show and he is very much against it unless the artist gives express permission. He also thinks that people shouldn't pay for anything other than what they feel they should give the artist, which sounds contradictory on the face of it, but makes sense.

I'd better watch out lest people think I worship Penn Jillette or something. I mean, I do, but I don't want people to think that.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Jonathan_Short_Torso on August 30, 2008, 09:26:36 AM
I'd better watch out lest people think I worship Penn Jillette or something. I mean, I do, but I don't want people to think that.
Is that like worshipping Bic Pens and Gilette Razors?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on August 30, 2008, 10:05:21 AM
I'd like to see them do an episode on piracy. :P
he he ;D
yeah..
Yes but would they be against it or for it? Aye, there's the rub.
I think they'd be 'for' it for your own personal use (like VHS tapes back in the day..)

And 'Against' it for selling burned copies, or uploading to t o r r e n t sites.. :-\

Penn's talked about it before on his radio show and he is very much against it unless the artist gives express permission. He also thinks that people shouldn't pay for anything other than what they feel they should give the artist, which sounds contradictory on the face of it, but makes sense.

I'd better watch out lest people think I worship Penn Jillette or something. I mean, I do, but I don't want people to think that.

It kind of sounds to me like he is in favour of Radiohead's method. Take the publisher out of the equation, post it on your site, with a "pay what you feel it's worth" method.

Sure, some people downloaded it from their site and didn't pay a cent (which Radiohead allowed as an option), but lots of other people paid $5, $10, or even $20 for it (suckers). In the end, they ended up with millions in revenue, which was all theirs (instead of having to share most of it with the producer). If nothing else, it should be proof of concept for the system.

I don't even LIKE Radiohead, but I still downloaded the album and paid them 5 bux for it, because I support the IDEA.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Destin on September 02, 2008, 03:29:54 PM
Im sorry if this is already posted but heres some good commentary by Penn

Penn Says:
http://crackle.com/c/Penn_Says/Penn_Says_Vacation/2363598
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: lassieface on September 12, 2008, 03:12:09 PM
I'm sure they'll do scientology at some point...OH NO MY COMPUTER THINKS SCIENTOLOGY IS MISSPELLED UNLESS IT IT CAPITALIZED!
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Destin on September 12, 2008, 03:26:59 PM
Theres something on youtube of them discussing why they havnt done Scientology yet. Teller even speaks :p
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 10, 2009, 07:59:36 AM
OK so which episode do they talk about chiropractic "medicine"? I know they've done it but I can't think of the specific episode title.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 10, 2009, 08:01:03 AM
OK so which episode do they talk about chiropractic "medicine"? I know they've done it but I can't think of the specific episode title.
It's on the 1st season..

Don't have time currently to see which episode it was..
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 10, 2009, 08:06:53 AM
Found It..

Season 1 Episode 2: Alternative Medicines
http://vids.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=vids.individual&VideoID=7843377
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 10, 2009, 08:10:29 AM
Excellent, thanks :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 10, 2009, 08:10:59 AM
Excellent, thanks :)
Thinking of a New career?? :o
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 10, 2009, 08:11:47 AM
Nope just having to deal with a potential new brother in law who's a quack.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 10, 2009, 08:14:04 AM
Nope just having to deal with a potential new brother in law who's a quack.
Oh Greeeaat... :-X

Good Luck with that..
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 10, 2009, 12:29:31 PM
Here are a couple more things to check out:

http://www.chirobase.org/ (http://www.chirobase.org/) which is run by Stephen Barrett of Quackwatch who is in the above episode,

And QuackCast, a podcast by a doctor that gets rather technical, but not overly so:
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/7219a04d8d3b1302766cae8ea96f991f-9.html (http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/7219a04d8d3b1302766cae8ea96f991f-9.html) - the history and theory of chiropractic
http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/9995ad78c0fd284e02dfc46b91285a64-10.html (http://www.quackcast.com/spodcasts/files/9995ad78c0fd284e02dfc46b91285a64-10.html) - Chiropractic evidence to support efficacy and complications

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 10, 2009, 12:31:30 PM
 :scared:

Maybe I'll just stick to hot women giving me massages.. :P
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on January 10, 2009, 06:24:07 PM
Luckily, the benefits of a Happy Ending are real.  :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Thrifty on January 13, 2009, 12:43:20 PM
I like that the guys are pretty equal opportunity attackers; going after liberal and conservative causes alike.  And although they can be brash, they also openly admit when they're wrong, or don't have a soapbox to stand on, or just don't know.  They have a humility I admire.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 13, 2009, 12:46:02 PM
Yeah there are episodes where i don't agree with their point of view but you know it's almost always entertainingly put across.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 13, 2009, 02:41:09 PM
Well I agree with Everything they say! ;D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 13, 2009, 03:33:54 PM
How about the death penalty?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 13, 2009, 03:42:00 PM
How about the death penalty?
Sure.. Fry'em All!! >:D
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 13, 2009, 03:47:00 PM
You don't agree with P&T on everything then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICZ-akWgTaU).

Incidentally this is one where I mostly disagree with them too.  :)

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on January 13, 2009, 03:51:46 PM
You don't agree with P&T on everything then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICZ-akWgTaU).

Incidentally this is one where I mostly disagree with them too.  :)


Hmm.. Wait! I change my mind!

Uh... I need to rewatch that episode again :o
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on January 13, 2009, 08:25:05 PM
You don't agree with P&T on everything then (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ICZ-akWgTaU).

Incidentally this is one where I mostly disagree with them too.  :)


As do I... BUT the episode made me really think about my position, and noodle out for myself just why I think about it the way I do. I wrote a multi-page letter to PennRadio after it aired.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 14, 2009, 12:19:12 PM
That episode definitely made me rethink some things and I had to agree with them that if just one innocent person is put to death wrongly, then the whole punishment really should be eliminated. Part of that may come from my totally irrational fear of being wrongly accused of something (I thank Kafka and Hitchcock for that).
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Thrifty on January 14, 2009, 02:51:27 PM
How about the death penalty?

See, I don't mind capital punishment.  You put an innocent guy to death, that's tragic.  You put an innocent guy in prison for years, decades, his whole life, that's ALSO tragic.  But that they kept saying, YOU SUPPORT MURDERING PEOPLE, so matter of factly is more propaganda and emotion than I'm used to seeing on that show.

And I thought they made a mountain out of a molehill on the circumcision episode.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 14, 2009, 03:43:42 PM
See that one I'm in complete agreement with them on; Circumcision is more a cultural practice than a medically justified one.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 14, 2009, 04:27:30 PM
How about the death penalty?

See, I don't mind capital punishment.  You put an innocent guy to death, that's tragic.  You put an innocent guy in prison for years, decades, his whole life, that's ALSO tragic.  But that they kept saying, YOU SUPPORT MURDERING PEOPLE, so matter of factly is more propaganda and emotion than I'm used to seeing on that show.

If putting someone to death isn't murder, then what is it? Not that I'm disagreeing that there was some "appeal to emotion" going on in the episode.

And I thought they made a mountain out of a molehill on the circumcision episode.

I thought their point was that it made the opposite.   :rimshot:
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 14, 2009, 07:09:02 PM
See, my thing is this: whether or not the death penalty itself is justified and whether or not the system deals with people improperly are two completely separate issues, but they get lumped together as excuses / justifications / arguments because they can overlap.

That the system can wrongly put a person in jail means that the system needs to be fixed, not that you can't put a person to death. I'm actually indifferent on the death penalty itself... I'm just as fine with life without parole instead. Either way is fine with me, as long as shitheads who hurt people are put away so they can't do it anymore. It's the people who are dangerous and get let out that are the real problem - but again, that's a problem with the system and it can be fixed.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 14, 2009, 07:42:12 PM
See, my thing is this: whether or not the death penalty itself is justified and whether or not the system deals with people improperly are two completely separate issues, but they get lumped together as excuses / justifications / arguments because they can overlap.

That the system can wrongly put a person in jail means that the system needs to be fixed, not that you can't put a person to death. I'm actually indifferent on the death penalty itself... I'm just as fine with life without parole instead. Either way is fine with me, as long as shitheads who hurt people are put away so they can't do it anymore. It's the people who are dangerous and get let out that are the real problem - but again, that's a problem with the system and it can be fixed.

True, they are different issues. However, if an innocent person gets put in jail for life and is later exonerated and set free, he's lost less than the innocent person who was put on death row and executed. That's something you can't rectify. It's a pretty dire consequence. I will say this however - I do think the death penalty should be instituted for serial killers. I can't come up with any argument that justifies Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy living.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Thrifty on January 15, 2009, 02:34:56 PM
See, my thing is this: whether or not the death penalty itself is justified and whether or not the system deals with people improperly are two completely separate issues, but they get lumped together as excuses / justifications / arguments because they can overlap.

That the system can wrongly put a person in jail means that the system needs to be fixed, not that you can't put a person to death. I'm actually indifferent on the death penalty itself... I'm just as fine with life without parole instead. Either way is fine with me, as long as shitheads who hurt people are put away so they can't do it anymore. It's the people who are dangerous and get let out that are the real problem - but again, that's a problem with the system and it can be fixed.

True, they are different issues. However, if an innocent person gets put in jail for life and is later exonerated and set free, he's lost less than the innocent person who was put on death row and executed. That's something you can't rectify. It's a pretty dire consequence. I will say this however - I do think the death penalty should be instituted for serial killers. I can't come up with any argument that justifies Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy living.

Yeah but not much less.  It's like losing 30 million dollars versus losing 29,973,000
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 15, 2009, 05:45:47 PM
See, my thing is this: whether or not the death penalty itself is justified and whether or not the system deals with people improperly are two completely separate issues, but they get lumped together as excuses / justifications / arguments because they can overlap.

That the system can wrongly put a person in jail means that the system needs to be fixed, not that you can't put a person to death. I'm actually indifferent on the death penalty itself... I'm just as fine with life without parole instead. Either way is fine with me, as long as shitheads who hurt people are put away so they can't do it anymore. It's the people who are dangerous and get let out that are the real problem - but again, that's a problem with the system and it can be fixed.

True, they are different issues. However, if an innocent person gets put in jail for life and is later exonerated and set free, he's lost less than the innocent person who was put on death row and executed. That's something you can't rectify. It's a pretty dire consequence. I will say this however - I do think the death penalty should be instituted for serial killers. I can't come up with any argument that justifies Ted Bundy or John Wayne Gacy living.

Yeah but not much less.  It's like losing 30 million dollars versus losing 29,973,000

Dude, that's like 10 high-class escort visits or 5400 low-low-low-class ones. Would you be willing to lose that?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 16, 2009, 05:37:53 AM
Either way, the point is that the system that allows wrongfully accused people to be found guilty, or let guilty people out who should not be, is the problem. The punishment is not the problem (either punishment). You cannot use the fault of the system as an arguement for or against a particular punishment, because if the system were not broken, it wouldn't be an issue. That's all I was saying.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 16, 2009, 05:42:07 AM
Which is exactly how people argue against nuclear power.

It's not that people really mind nuclear power they hate nuclear power stations that are administered in a half-assed way.

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 16, 2009, 06:29:47 AM
Yeah.

Even though I'm personally a bit wishy washy on the whole nuclear power thing, regardless of my final decision I'm still 100% in favour of building a new round of plants to replace the current ones, because they are old and not nearly as safe as the newer ones are able to be (the newer ones can also produce a larger capacity with the same amount of material, which means more energy and less brownouts). It's a no brainer to update the current ones to better models while we're trying to decide once and for all how to handle the whole situation, IMO.

But that's not what we're supposed to be bitching at right now (not that that's ever stopped us before). ;)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 16, 2009, 06:31:21 AM
I know, I just felt the need to digress  ;)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 16, 2009, 11:13:36 AM
Either way, the point is that the system that allows wrongfully accused people to be found guilty, or let guilty people out who should not be, is the problem. The punishment is not the problem (either punishment). You cannot use the fault of the system as an arguement for or against a particular punishment, because if the system were not broken, it wouldn't be an issue. That's all I was saying.

They may be different issues, but capital punishment is inextricably linked to the system. Only people who have gone through the system can be subjected to it. So, while you can't necessarily take capital punishment into consideration when criticizing the system (as not all who go through the system are subjected to capital punishment), you can absolutely take the system into consideration when criticizing capital punishment (as all who are put to death as a punishment have been through the system). To create a syllogism out of it:

All people on death row were sentenced to capital punishment.
All those sentenced to capital punishment have been through the legal system.
Therefore, all people on death row have been through the legal system.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 16, 2009, 01:27:49 PM
That is true, but you can't say that "capital punishment is wrong because the legal system can fail." That is not a valid argument.

You can, however, say, "Capital punishment is not a good idea RIGHT NOW because the legal system can fail." See the difference?

The fact that the legal system can fail does not make capital punishment itself wrong.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on January 16, 2009, 02:45:56 PM
Which is exactly how people argue against nuclear power.

It's not that people really mind nuclear power they hate nuclear power stations that are administered in a half-assed way.



I disagree. People who bag on nuclear power generally don't know much about the practical parts of how it actually works. Opposition to nuclear power stems largely from the anti-nuclear weapons movement, despite the fact that those two things have nothing to do with one another.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: gbeenie on January 16, 2009, 02:47:49 PM
That is true, but you can't say that "capital punishment is wrong because the legal system can fail." That is not a valid argument.

You can, however, say, "Capital punishment is not a good idea RIGHT NOW because the legal system can fail." See the difference?

The fact that the legal system can fail does not make capital punishment itself wrong.

In other words, the problem is practical, rather than philosophical. It seems you and I agree on this.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Tripe on January 16, 2009, 03:33:35 PM
Which is exactly how people argue against nuclear power.

It's not that people really mind nuclear power they hate nuclear power stations that are administered in a half-assed way.



I disagree. People who bag on nuclear power generally don't know much about the practical parts of how it actually works. Opposition to nuclear power stems largely from the anti-nuclear weapons movement, despite the fact that those two things have nothing to do with one another.

Oh I think there is a lot of truth to that, but what I mean is the examples often given, Chernobyl, three mile island that sort of thing are examples of craply run nuclear power. France has tons of NP plants with very few hitches.  :)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 16, 2009, 03:39:39 PM
That is true, but you can't say that "capital punishment is wrong because the legal system can fail." That is not a valid argument.

You can, however, say, "Capital punishment is not a good idea RIGHT NOW because the legal system can fail." See the difference?

The fact that the legal system can fail does not make capital punishment itself wrong.

In other words, the problem is practical, rather than philosophical. It seems you and I agree on this.

Somebody circle the calendar. ;)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 16, 2009, 11:09:25 PM
I don't know why we're wasting our time on such trivial matters as the death penalty and nucular power when we should be talking about their single most important episode ever on the legalization of prostitution.

I really wanted to link to that episode but for some strange reason, it isn't up on Youtube.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on January 17, 2009, 05:44:58 AM
Frankly, I'm amazed the government (or anyone else) thinks it's their business to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do behind closed doors. If they HAVE to be involved, the way in which it's handled in Nevada is pretty much perfect - regulation for the purpose of everyones' protection.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: DarthChimay on January 17, 2009, 12:30:03 PM
I'm not amazed that the government does it. Well, let me clarify - I'm not amazed that there are people in the government who make it their mission in life to tell consenting adults what they can and can't do. So many religions extort their followers to go out and make the world a more moral place, allowing them to blithely tromp over the freedom of others with their own draconian morals that aren't even in their religious texts in the first place.

Huh, that was a little more rant-y than I intended...
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Plastic Self-Cleaning Duck on January 17, 2009, 02:51:22 PM
Speaking of "BS", can I just say that Penn Gillette's singing on "Don't Forget The Lyrics!" last night wasn't bad enough....

They brought along Carrot Top!  AND HE SANG!!!!!!!!!

(http://i16.photobucket.com/albums/b4/robotrix/Smileys/thsuicide.gif)
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 12, 2009, 08:57:53 AM
Just got Disc 1 of Season 6 and already episode 1 looks Quite Interesting.. :o :P
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 05, 2010, 06:12:26 PM
Season 7 is out and episode 1 is.. WOW!! :o
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: Chaos on May 08, 2010, 06:39:02 AM
Uh... Season 7 started last June. The whole thing already aired. Or were you talking about on DVD?

We always loved the show, but I think they're actually getting a bit formulaic now, and not as hard hitting as they used to be. The episode on the Vatican from S7 was pretty good though.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 08, 2010, 06:44:36 AM
Uh... Season 7 started last June. The whole thing already aired. Or were you talking about on DVD?

DVD.. I can't afford no Showtime :-[

Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: k1 on May 08, 2010, 09:46:01 AM
Uh... Season 7 started last June. The whole thing already aired. Or were you talking about on DVD?

DVD.. I can't afford no Showtime :-[



I just remembered that I can watch this again! (The wife getting hired by Comcast means I get Showtime for free!) 

Netflix has a bunch on Watch Instantly as well.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: The Lady Rommel on May 08, 2010, 11:03:04 AM
I had Showtime for a year and discovered this show quite by accident.  The first episode I saw was the Astrology episode.  I'm into Astrology myself, but it didn't bother me any...it was quite funny.  Glad to see some fans here.  Everybody I know personally who's seen the show has been offended. 

I admit alot of my friends are small-minded and prudish.  I wonder what they think of me....

Been meaning to get the DVDs and start on some older episodes.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MrTorso on May 21, 2010, 09:41:21 PM
Uh... Season 7 started last June. The whole thing already aired. Or were you talking about on DVD?

We always loved the show, but I think they're actually getting a bit formulaic now, and not as hard hitting as they used to be. The episode on the Vatican from S7 was pretty good though.

That episode is NOT on the DVDs. It isn't even listed on the Showtime site anymore.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on May 21, 2010, 10:20:56 PM
Uh... Season 7 started last June. The whole thing already aired. Or were you talking about on DVD?

We always loved the show, but I think they're actually getting a bit formulaic now, and not as hard hitting as they used to be. The episode on the Vatican from S7 was pretty good though.

That episode is NOT on the DVDs. It isn't even listed on the Showtime site anymore.
Yeah, they had a couple of episodes from some other show on the 2nd DVD and I just left them off when I made my backup :-\
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on February 05, 2012, 01:05:37 PM
Ok so I guess I missed the announcement
Quote
On April 14, 2011, Penn announced that Bullshit! has ended and a new show Penn & Teller: Tell a Lie would begin on The Discovery Channel.
I was searching for a Season 9 DVD release date and came across this.. :-[

I haven't seen the new show 'Tell a Lie' so is it similar to Bull Sh*t?
I'm sure it's less profane but does it still have the same type of appeal as Bull Shit did?
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: k1 on February 05, 2012, 01:37:26 PM
Ok so I guess I missed the announcement
Quote
On April 14, 2011, Penn announced that Bullshit! has ended and a new show Penn & Teller: Tell a Lie would begin on The Discovery Channel.
I was searching for a Season 9 DVD release date and came across this.. :-[

I haven't seen the new show 'Tell a Lie' so is it similar to Bull Sh*t?
I'm sure it's less profane but does it still have the same type of appeal as Bull Shit did?

It's not that great unfortunately. I keep trying to get into it, but end up just watching it while I am working on other stuff.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on February 05, 2012, 01:56:43 PM
Ok so I guess I missed the announcement
Quote
On April 14, 2011, Penn announced that Bullshit! has ended and a new show Penn & Teller: Tell a Lie would begin on The Discovery Channel.
I was searching for a Season 9 DVD release date and came across this.. :-[

I haven't seen the new show 'Tell a Lie' so is it similar to Bull Sh*t?
I'm sure it's less profane but does it still have the same type of appeal as Bull Shit did?

It's not that great unfortunately. I keep trying to get into it, but end up just watching it while I am working on other stuff.
That's what I heard as well.. Sux that BS was cancelled.. Maybe it'll be resurrected in the future :-\
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: MrTorso on February 05, 2012, 01:58:42 PM
Ok so I guess I missed the announcement
Quote
On April 14, 2011, Penn announced that Bullshit! has ended and a new show Penn & Teller: Tell a Lie would begin on The Discovery Channel.
I was searching for a Season 9 DVD release date and came across this.. :-[

I haven't seen the new show 'Tell a Lie' so is it similar to Bull Sh*t?
I'm sure it's less profane but does it still have the same type of appeal as Bull Shit did?

It's not that great unfortunately. I keep trying to get into it, but end up just watching it while I am working on other stuff.

It really isn't like Bullshit at all. More like Penn & Teller crossed with Mythbusters.  Basically they tell/show 6 stories/myths/fantastic feats and one of them is faked and you have to guess which one.  I am a huge P&T nerd (hell I have a P&T themed tattoo) and I like it. Any chance to hear Penn yell a lot and Teller mug for the camera.  But if you go into it as a replacement for Bullshit you will be disappoint.
Title: Re: Penn and Teller: BS!
Post by: RVR II on February 05, 2012, 02:02:54 PM
Hmm.. I'll try to catch it and check it out sometime to see if I like it or not.. :-\

Thanks !