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General Discussion => Video Games => Topic started by: daltysmilth on February 28, 2007, 07:00:21 PM

Title: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on February 28, 2007, 07:00:21 PM
This just in: video games will turn your children into murderers, drug dealers, thieves, and rapists.  Seriously.  I read it on the internets:

http://health.msn.com/pregnancykids/kidshealth/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100153600&GT1=9033&wa=wsignin1.0 (http://health.msn.com/pregnancykids/kidshealth/articlepage.aspx?cp-documentid=100153600&GT1=9033&wa=wsignin1.0)

So don't let your kids play video games!  And don't play them yourself, either!  Otherwise you might go out and kill a bunch of people and stuff.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Nunyerbiz on February 28, 2007, 07:18:03 PM

Lame hyperbole aside, I don't think it's much of a stretch to realize that exposure to forms of media that promote and/or glorify violence and aggression will lead to increases of violence and aggresion in some people. To say that Doom caused Columbine or whatever is patently retarded... altho to say that those types of games have any positive effect on a child's psyche would be just as retarded. They might not be harming every kid, but they certainly aren't helping.

I'm not calling for banning of violent video games, but I do think the rating system has to be taken a little more seriously by parents and retailers alike.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: torgosPizza on February 28, 2007, 07:21:54 PM
... parents and retailers alike.

You nailed it. The rating system is meaningless unless the retailers enforce it, and the PARENTS be responsible for their childrens' actions. How many of the incidents could've been prevented if the parent was aware that the child was making pipe bombs or bullying kids in school, and DID something about it?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on February 28, 2007, 08:22:35 PM
Quote
The debate about whether playing violent video games is bad for a child’s well-being is both red-hot and perennial—sort of like the sales figures of the games Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto.


So does that mean the debate's finally tapering off because everyone's sick of it? :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Nunyerbiz on February 28, 2007, 08:40:48 PM
Hah...

Yea, I got all caught up in a serious reply and totally forgot that they referenced frickin Mortal Combat. Geezus... might as well reference Hitler in a discussion about modern Germany's well-being.

The debate about whether a long dead fascist dictator is bad for Germany is both red-hot and perennial - sort of like the sales figures for Pet Rocks and Hypercolor T-Shirts.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on February 28, 2007, 09:12:43 PM
I don't trust the government studies.  If they don't say something sensationalist, they lose their funding.  That being said, I don't think violent video games are any worse than violent TV, movies, and other forms of media, but are not harmless.  I also think this attention to the violent content draws away from the most dangerous effect of video games: addiction.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on February 28, 2007, 10:13:51 PM
However much I like some violent video games, they are much worse than tv.  I think I've mentioned it in these forums some where, but it bears repeating.

Violent video games are interactive, movies are passive.  In movies you usually just see violence happening, and maybe a little preparation.  In video games, you go through all the steps.  You pick your target, find a weapon and ammunition, load the gun, hunt down the target, and pull the trigger.  Then you usually proceed to loot the body.  It's a completely different experience.  And plus, after you pull the trigger and are successful, you are rewarded in some way, be it with points or the ability to go further int he game.  There is no way that has the same effect on a child as just seeing it on tv.

It doesn't pertain to just realistic video games.  The more cartoony the game, the worse.  With cartoon violence there is very little consequences when you shoot some one in the face.  The most that happens is their hair is blown back and their face is covered in soot.  Then they continue to chase each other.  This teaches kids that violence has little consequences, and that all that happens when you hammer some one on the head is that a lump forms for a second. 

Now, this doesn't necessarily make kids go out and shoot people in the face.  But it does increase aggression.  Kids who play a violent video game are more aggressive during their physical play than kids who participate in a non aggressive activity, like a board game. 

Luckily, there is a cure for this.  If the kid really wants to play the game, make sure to sit down and play it with them.  Talk to your kid, and make sure they understand that the violence that happens in the game is different than real life.  Real life violence has consequences.  It helps a lot, because although it's obvious to us, kids don't always think rationally about the consequences of their actions. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: mrbasehart on March 01, 2007, 06:44:17 AM
Has anyone ever played "Super Columbine Massacre RPG!"?  I've read a lot about it and its reception at the Slamdance Independent Games Festival.  I don't think I'm quite brave enough to play it myself, but I'm curious to people's thoughts on it.

Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 09:35:20 AM
have you ever tried turning off the tv sitting down with your kids, and hitting them?
Title: Re: Video Games = Smarter Kids
Post by: Rude on March 01, 2007, 09:47:03 AM
...

Everything Bad Is Good For You:
http://www.rifftrax.com/smf/index.php?topic=2116.0

Including video games!

-Rude
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 01, 2007, 11:25:14 AM
I think video games do cause violence.  Like, let's say you're playing Final Fantasy X, and you get to a point where the save points are few and far between, and it's been awhile since the last time you encountered a save point, and all of a sudden you get to a really long, unskippable cutscene, and it goes on and on and on until about 10 minutes have passed, and then at the end of the cutscene is a boss battle, and it's the most difficult boss battle you've yet encountered, and it's long and complicated and extremely difficult, requiring strategizing that would make Sun Tzu scratch his head and say, "Huh?", but still, you persevere and finally you beat the boss battle, and afteward there's another long, unskippable cutscene, but you get through that, and you're in control of your character again, and of course, there's still not a save point in sight, so you decide to go back to the last place you saw one, and then you get in a random battle against an enemy that you normally would have no trouble beating, but because you've just finished a major boss battle that left your characters HP down to less than 100 each, and you had to use all your potions to conserve MP for major attacks, and you had to use a bunch of major attacks and as a result your characters are running low on MP and you're running low on potions, so you haven't had the chance to heal your characters yet, and the enemies, which are normally fairly weak, use their one insanely powerful attack which takes 4000 HP every time it hits, and since your characters have less than 100 HP, your party dies, which means Game Over, and you realize this means you're going to have to start over from the last save point and go through all the rigamarole with the unskippable cutscenes and the unbelievably difficult boss battle again, just because of some STUPID RANDOM ENEMY WHO NORMALLY IS VERY EASY TO DEFEAT BUT IT HAS ONE G*DDAMN ATTACK THAT TAKES OFF 4000 HP EVERY G*DDAMN TIME!!!  And this makes you very angry, which leads to violence.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Tyrant on March 01, 2007, 11:30:20 AM
   As always, it boils down to the parents. Parent's evidently don't want to be bothered with parenting so they blame their kids' faults on other sources like TV and videogames, despite the warning labels and ratings. They ignore movie ratings and then scream bloody murder when their kids try to act out a scene from a violent movie. This is a generation of parents that should never have had kids, in my opinion. They don't know how to discipline, recognize behavioral problems and fix them, or take responsability for anything if their kids are messed up.


   I remember my Mom sat down with me and my brother multiple times when we were growing up to watch what we watched on TV. She always told us that what was on TV was never real and to never assume otherwise. We always knew, as a result, that violence had consequences. It wasn't hard for her to find time to do that, and she was a single Mom raising two kids on minimum wage. Parents these days disgust me.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 11:34:12 AM
I am a hardcore member of the Video Game generation, and I'm as passive as they come. Maybe I'd be a much more violent person if I DIDN'T have the chance to splatter hordes of alien brains all over digital landscapes growing up. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Tyrant on March 01, 2007, 11:35:28 AM
I am a hardcore member of the Video Game generation, and I'm as passive as they come. Maybe I'd be a much more violent person if I DIDN'T have the chance to splatter hordes of alien brains all over digital landscapes growing up. :^)

  Well, you do have that obsession with being a digital world dictator, for some reason.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 11:38:42 AM
I am a hardcore member of the Video Game generation, and I'm as passive as they come. Maybe I'd be a much more violent person if I DIDN'T have the chance to splatter hordes of alien brains all over digital landscapes growing up. :^)

  Well, you do have that obsession with being a digital world dictator, for some reason.
What can I say. I love making little digital beings do my bidding. But I WON'T take over the world because I don't HAVE to! If only Hitler had had the benefit of Civilization 2. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 11:46:49 AM
im a meglomaniac too  thank god for add screwing up my ability to focus
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 01, 2007, 11:52:19 AM
I think video games do cause violence.  Like, let's say you're playing Final Fantasy X, and you get to a point where the save points are few and far between, and it's been awhile since the last time you encountered a save point, and all of a sudden you get to a really long, unskippable cutscene, and it goes on and on and on until about 10 minutes have passed, and then at the end of the cutscene is a boss battle, and it's the most difficult boss battle you've yet encountered, and it's long and complicated and extremely difficult, requiring strategizing that would make Sun Tzu scratch his head and say, "Huh?", but still, you persevere and finally you beat the boss battle, and afteward there's another long, unskippable cutscene, but you get through that, and you're in control of your character again, and of course, there's still not a save point in sight, so you decide to go back to the last place you saw one, and then you get in a random battle against an enemy that you normally would have no trouble beating, but because you've just finished a major boss battle that left your characters HP down to less than 100 each, and you had to use all your potions to conserve MP for major attacks, and you had to use a bunch of major attacks and as a result your characters are running low on MP and you're running low on potions, so you haven't had the chance to heal your characters yet, and the enemies, which are normally fairly weak, use their one insanely powerful attack which takes 4000 HP every time it hits, and since your characters have less than 100 HP, your party dies, which means Game Over, and you realize this means you're going to have to start over from the last save point and go through all the rigamarole with the unskippable cutscenes and the unbelievably difficult boss battle again, just because of some STUPID RANDOM ENEMY WHO NORMALLY IS VERY EASY TO DEFEAT BUT IT HAS ONE G*DDAMN ATTACK THAT TAKES OFF 4000 HP EVERY G*DDAMN TIME!!!  And this makes you very angry, which leads to violence.

You're whole post is made meaningless by the fact that Final Fantasy X was incredibly easy.  Sorry, I just don't believe that could ever happen.

I am a hardcore member of the Video Game generation, and I'm as passive as they come. Maybe I'd be a much more violent person if I DIDN'T have the chance to splatter hordes of alien brains all over digital landscapes growing up. :^)

The idea of catharsis is a neat one.  It's just a shame that it's not true.  By playing, listening, or watching something violent, you only become more accepting of the violence.  It is different for each individual, but there is no evidence that it makes you less likely to do the violent acts you are playing out.  Psychiatrists used to think catharsis could be used to heal.  So they gave families who has issues foam bats to hit each other with, to release some of their anger.  It didn't work.  Just made them more angry and violent. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 11:54:40 AM
so substitute it for marble madness then
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 11:56:27 AM
Lego Star Wars is MY anti-murder! :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 01, 2007, 11:58:37 AM
You're whole post is made meaningless by the fact that Final Fantasy X was incredibly easy.  Sorry, I just don't believe that could ever happen.

It happened to me!  All of it! 

I am a hardcore member of the Video Game generation, and I'm as passive as they come. Maybe I'd be a much more violent person if I DIDN'T have the chance to splatter hordes of alien brains all over digital landscapes growing up. :^)

The idea of catharsis is a neat one.  It's just a shame that it's not true.  By playing, listening, or watching something violent, you only become more accepting of the violence.  It is different for each individual, but there is no evidence that it makes you less likely to do the violent acts you are playing out.  Psychiatrists used to think catharsis could be used to heal.  So they gave families who has issues foam bats to hit each other with, to release some of their anger.  It didn't work.  Just made them more angry and violent. 

What about the studies that have shown that violent crime has actually gone down since violent video games have become popular? 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 12:01:30 PM
a better question would be WHAT studies?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 12:01:53 PM
The foam bats were encouraging simulated violence against other people. People in the same household, no less. When you're playing a video game, you're beating up on a non-existant character. One that won't think ill of you later on for whacking 'em with a foam bat.

If anyone wants a true taste of catharsis, go on a rampage in Hulk: Ultimate Destruction. It makes all the hurting go away, and does nothing to encourage me to try to smash buildings. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Tyrant on March 01, 2007, 01:13:33 PM

  Strangely, I do feel the urge to go kill dead people after playing RE.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 01, 2007, 02:58:15 PM
Article from www.ign.com

Game Violence Debate Killed?
Study says simulated violence is not the same as real violence.
by Micah Seff

February 28, 2007 - In a recent issue of the American Sociological Association's Context magazine, sociologist Karen Sternheimer put some heavy doubt into the theories that videogame violence directly result in real-world violence. Sternheimer claims that there is no such correlation, and that the reality might be exactly the opposite.

Sternheimer cited as evidence of this trend the fact that as annual sales of videogames and accessories has risen to over $10 billion, juvenile homicide arrests have fallen 77%. According to Sternheimer, students now have a chance of less than 7 in 10 million of being killed by school-related violence.

In a very frank and forthright manner, Sternheimer stated, "If we want to understand why young people become homicidal, we need to look beyond the games they play."

Like many have argued before her, Sterheimer contends that videogame violence has been used as a straw man argument. Rather than paying attention to more pertinent issues that might nurture violence -- such as poverty, instability, domestic abuse, unemployment, and mental illness -- reactionaries have been directing their ire at the games industry, effectively exonerating these other factors of their impact.

"It is equally likely that more aggressive people seek out violent entertainment," Sternheimer said. "After adult rampage shootings in the workplace, which happen more often than school shootings, reporters seldom mention if the shooters played video games."

Sternheimer seemed to disagree with the analytical methods of a 2001 study which found that videogames did increase aggressive behavior, stating: "They don't offer much insight as to why a few isolated kids, and not the millions of others who play these games, decided to pick up real weapons and shoot real people."

While the debate is far from over, it's nice to see sociologists looking critically at the issue.

Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 03:26:32 PM
I dunno, maybe.  IGN isnt gonna win any unbiased points from me.  Although thats better than nothing i spose
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 01, 2007, 03:52:53 PM
The only thing you can learn by comparing video game sales to violent crime rates is that video games are not the main cause of violent crime.  And no one is suggesting that it is.  And it's laughable that IGN tried to imply that based on this comparison, video games decrease the amount of violent crime. 

People who are legitimately worried about the effect of violent video games on children are not worried that their kids are going to shoot some one solely because of video games.  They are worried that it is going to increase aggressive behavior, and at worst get them in trouble for fighting at school.  It is insane to claim that video games make you kill.  But it's equally insane to say that they have a positive, or no effect on most people's aggression.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 01, 2007, 04:18:01 PM
I agree with you cell.  I just thought it might help with the discussion to put another research done. It's dumb to say that watching violence or playing violent games isnt going to effect you. The same could be said for Pornography/drugs etc. I know this is a video game forurm so ill just talk about this. Whatever you put into your body. physical or whatever your body will react to it.  But what you do after your body reacts is up to you.  Its you who decides if you are going to lash out and shoot people, whack someone with a foam bat or whatnot. 

Tyrant YES YES YES parents are a big influence. I hate how people are raising their kids these days, They just dont know how to be on their kids level. see things how they see it.  Its just frustrating how they dont know how to teach their kids, disipline them in the right way so that they actually learn from doing something wrong so that they dont do it again. 

I love video games, violent or not. People just need to learn at a young age or if older see someone who can help them to understand that all of it isnt real.  Its a form of entertainment for us to be entertained. Not to give us an example to live by and try to become like that.  It's all just for fun. That's it.

Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 04:25:29 PM
The attitude that irks me is people who think video games are just for kids so it doesnt matter what their kids play.  The parents dont like video games for whatever idiotic reason so they classify them as juvinelle.  They will by their kid the latest game of slap stab rape, then are shocked by their kids attitudes and language.  Video games stopped being universely for children when the ol NES stopped being in production.  Time to realize even if you dont like something doesnt mean it was solely designed for 8 year olds. 


ps their is nothing all that adult about the idiotic shows the parent watch anyways. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 04:27:27 PM
The only thing you can learn by comparing video game sales to violent crime rates is that video games are not the main cause of violent crime.  And no one is suggesting that it is.  And it's laughable that IGN tried to imply that based on this comparison, video games decrease the amount of violent crime. 

People who are legitimately worried about the effect of violent video games on children are not worried that their kids are going to shoot some one solely because of video games.  They are worried that it is going to increase aggressive behavior, and at worst get them in trouble for fighting at school.  It is insane to claim that video games make you kill.  But it's equally insane to say that they have a positive, or no effect on most people's aggression.
I guess we need to draw the line between violent crime and agressive behavior then. Agressive behavior isn't necessarily a bad thing if it's kept to ambition and striving for personal goals. If we're talking VIOLENT behavior, then we have an indicator that it's gone down. Something's changed the culture, and I suppose it could just as easily be the internet or increase of Anime on TV. :^) Nothing proves video games make agression rise, nothing proves it's making it go down. I would argue that violent TV and Movies (And TV is notedly more violent than it was back in the day when everyone was more worried about it) have as much effect, even if that's no effect at all.. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 01, 2007, 04:46:20 PM
I would like to see a study done that compares agression in kids who play violent video games verses kids who spend their time doing other challenging activities, like solving puzzles, or playing sports. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 04:49:15 PM
I would like to see a study on why pickles dont taste ANYTHING like cucumbers
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 01, 2007, 05:28:25 PM
http://www.apa.org/releases/videogames.html
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 01, 2007, 06:14:09 PM
So having even temporary exposure to violent video games can encourage agressive behavior?  I wonder if this same group would conclude that having even temporary exposure to food can encourage gluttonous behavior, or that being exposed, even for a brief length of time, to erotic imagery can lead to lustful behavior. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 01, 2007, 06:18:44 PM
Quote
I wonder if this same group would conclude that having even temporary exposure to food can encourage gluttonous behavior, or that being exposed, even for a brief length of time, to erotic imagery can lead to lustful behavior. 

well it certainly seems to for me
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 01, 2007, 08:20:59 PM
I'd like to see that same test performed on children who are involved in a football game. It sounds like they're testing for competitive spirit more than agressiveness.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Minnesota on March 01, 2007, 08:25:56 PM

Quote
the games Mortal Kombat and Grand Theft Auto.


The list courtesy of my previous top ten post, dammit I've always suspected I was Evil this just confirms it ;)
Minnesota's Ten
1. RBI Baseball - immeasurable time spent on this game
2. GTA III - Worth buying 3 ps2's for (these things break alot)
3. Super Mario Bros. 3 - The best of the series
4. Tony Hawk - Hard to choose a specific version but 4 is my fav
5. Super Mario Bros. 1 - simple yet perfect
6. NFL 2k - Randy Moss & Sega used to be tha ****
6. Golden Eye 007 - This should be higher but hey, thats the breaks kid
7. Soul Caliber - dam feels weird rating this above mortal kombat
8. Mortal Kombat 2 - This game is sweet but still should give props to tha 1st mk
9. Pong - Yeah, I said it, you got a problem with that? Grin
10. Tiger Woods 03 Xbox - sorry halo, this got more play man  Wink
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 01, 2007, 09:20:22 PM
I'd like to see that same test performed on children who are involved in a football game. It sounds like they're testing for competitive spirit more than agressiveness.

I don't claim this test to be proof, but I'll defend it a bit.  The test they were put into didn't have anything to do with competition.  They were exposed to a game, then afterward were told they were supposed to help some one learn how to do a simple task by punishing them with a loud sound blast every time they got it wrong.  The people who played the violent video game beforehand gave louder and more painful blasts to the person (who was in on the experiment) than the person who played the non violent game.  There's a direct correlation between violent video games and aggression.

Though the study does not show if there are any long term effects.  All it says is that there is a causal increase in aggression after playing a violent video game.  And not the 'go get em' kind.  The kind where you are more willing to inflict pain on other people.

So having even temporary exposure to violent video games can encourage agressive behavior?  I wonder if this same group would conclude that having even temporary exposure to food can encourage gluttonous behavior, or that being exposed, even for a brief length of time, to erotic imagery can lead to lustful behavior. 

Exposure to food makes you less hungry after you eat it.  Though your porn example works.  Watching sex makes you aware and conscious of sex, and primes your thoughts so you think about sex first, and if the opportunity arises, you act upon it.  Something similar might be happening with violent video games.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Compound on March 01, 2007, 09:24:27 PM
Has anyone ever played "Super Columbine Massacre RPG!"?  I've read a lot about it and its reception at the Slamdance Independent Games Festival.  I don't think I'm quite brave enough to play it myself, but I'm curious to people's thoughts on it.

Wiki:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Columbine_Massacre)

I've played it, or at least a good chunk of it. (I bailed during the second half of the game.) Before I go further, let me note that I live in Littleton,Colorado just a few minutes away from Columbine, and I'm indirectly connected to the event. (I wasn't there, but I do know people who were.) So I've got a bit of a bias.

That being said, the game's awful. If you just stick to the gameplay, and ignore the real life aspects, it plays like what it is: a game cobbled together with a commercial game making program. It's bland, generic in feel and lifeless and if it were called "Ninja Robot Massacre", no one would have paid any attention or probably even played it for longer than a few minutes.

When you add the real life stuff back in, well, it's a good example of a fairly disturbing trend. There's a small subset of people out there whose reaction to the shooting wasn't horror, but rather "Yeah! Good for them!" I've seen stories on Fanfiction.net with Harris and Kleibold turned into dashing, romantic figures. This game's a good example of this trend. The game seems to dwell on the "look at how conflicted these two were" aspect rather than concentrating on the actions that they were performing. It's just a huge waste of time.

As for the folks at Slamdance who were trying to praise the game, the game isn't deep. It isn't ponderous. The only question it raises is, "How could someone have missed the point so badly?" Frankly, I'm more annoyed at these pinheads than I am at the programmer of the game. Sheesh.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Road_Element on March 01, 2007, 11:20:52 PM
This just might be me. But when i play something like Grand Theft Auto. I dont think to myself "Hey wouldnt it be fun to do this in Real Life" and anyone who dose is either retarded or seriously mentally disturbed. Its ture you dont want a kid to get his hands on a GTA type game. But they been saying this kinda stuff about video game going back to the old Atari/Nintendo days. Like Pac-man was going to put demonic thoughts into my head about eating people. That or maybe Ms Pacman would thought into my head about eating fruit. Maybe Mario was going to inspire me into getting a low paying plumbing job. Where i would go nuts from living in a one room apartment with Fran Drescher like person. Where i will be driven insane and become a serial killer. That said todays games are more violent and little kids souldnt get there hands on them. I think alot of the responsibility belongs with the parents to know what there kids are playing. But if you ask me, theres a big difference between Increase Aggression and Killing Someone.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 01, 2007, 11:44:21 PM
Yeup.  So far, everyone here agrees that an increase in aggression does not necessarily lead to killing some one.  However, the increase in aggression in people who are already fairly aggressive is much more than in people who aren't.  You know, the kinda kid that thinks it's fun to shoot squirrels and throw things at passing cars is going to be affected a lot more by violent video games then most kids.  Do you really want to be making that kid more aggressive than he already is?  You can say that it's up to his parents to decide what games he plays, but if he's off shooting paint balls at cars, I have a feeling his parents probably don't care all that much if he plays a video game.

That seems to be the biggest problem.  The people most affected by video games probably don't have that good of a family life.  Their parents probably don't care, and their life is pretty tough.  Yet we are giving them role models like San Andreas.  They are probably more likely to see it as closer to reality than most of us here.  Is there a solution for that?  If something is going to affect a certain group of people negatively, should it be censored?  Is it fair to rely so heavily on a rating system that assumes parents are responsible, when the kids the games affect the most have irresponsible parents?  Do we have the right to call a parent irresponsible if it is statistically proven that the way they raise their child will groom them to be violent?  And if the reason they raise their child in that way is because they are poor, is it right to punish them for something that may not be their fault?  Tough questions, and I'm not sure if they have answers. 

Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on March 02, 2007, 07:45:22 AM
Okay, time to give a serious weight in.

1.  Look at what common sense tells you about aggressive, harmful people and video games.  The guy who's been playing Metal Gear Solid 2 for days straight so he can get the blue wig, or the guy who can destroy anybody in Street Fighter Second Strike with Akuma is not the kind of guy that bullies his classmates.  The guy whose raiding guild was the first to finish Naxxramas in World of Warcraft probably isn't vandalising lockers.  As it has always been among teenagers and some younger children, the jocks and the people whose parents are never around are the bullies.  I'm not denying that exposure to violence doesn't make you more violent (same goes for 24 as it does for Splinter Cell) temporarily, but a look at a high school cross-section will tell you it's not exactly pathological.

2.  Why, when something is found to have adverse effects, is our first reaction to think about using the power of the federal government to violate the tenets of the free market by banning the sale of such things?  First off, it's unconstitutional.  While the Constitution gives the federal government the power to regulate interstate commerce, the act of purchasing a video game is a single transaction between two private individuals, not states, meaning that the federal government, as per the 10th ammendment, has no jurisdiction.  Second, the first ammendment entitles everyone in this country to the right to say whatever they want, whenever they want, unless it poses an immediate threat to other individuals (sedition, yelling 'fire' in a theater, slander).  Currently, the free market is working.  As video games grew more violent in content, a private company invented a ratings system and charged companies to have their games rated, much like the MPAA does.  The government saw this and realized that few people who vote are going to try to defend video games very passionately, so they took the chance to try to grab power, which is what this is all about.  If the government grabs the ESRB, they will bloat the budget, wasting YOUR money, and use the program as yet another way to buy votes, mostly from people who believe that censorship of all things not warm and fuzzy is the only way to protect 'the children.'  Passing an unconstitutional law which puts limits on your civil liberties isn't going to make anybody a better parent, and I doubt it can do much to reduce the estimated 20% of rated 'M' games purchased by minors without parental consent.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 08:08:46 AM
Quote
The guy whose raiding guild was the first to finish Naxxramas in World of Warcraft probably isn't vandalising lockers.  As it has always been among teenagers and some younger children, the jocks and the people whose parents are never around are the bullies

What is this high school in the 80s?  come on these so called sects cross mingle now.  I know lots of so called jocks that play tons of video games, you dont think these  "jocks" go home and study all night do ya?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 09:14:13 AM
The main bulk of Hobbit's post makes sense.  But let me post this hypothetical question.  If it is proven that violent video games do have long lasting negative psychological effects on kids, is it morally ok to let children play these games?  If it is proven that these games have a stronger negative affect than we think, isn't allowing them to play it almost destining them to become violent as adults?  You can argue that the government doesn't have the right to interfere in private matters, but then, in this hypothetical situation, you are arguing that children have the right to grow up to be gang members and murderers. 

I generally agree with you, I just wonder if your position would change if this were slightly different.  And you have to remember, we are not valid examples of the effects of violent video games.  The games we all played as children are nothing compared to the games of today in terms of violence. 

I remember when I was around 7 or 8, my friends and I would pretend to be Star Fox.  Well, I'd be Falco usually.  We'd pretend to fly around in our ships and go on adventures, and we'd talk incoherently every now and then, like the characters in the game did.  Kids like to emulate what they are exposed to.  And it's kinda scary knowing that there are kids out there emulating Grand Theft Auto. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 09:20:44 AM
Quote
I remember when I was around 7 or 8, my friends and I would pretend to be Star Fox.  Well, I'd be Falco usually.  We'd pretend to fly around in our ships and go on adventures, and we'd talk incoherently every now and then, like the characters in the game did.  Kids like to emulate what they are exposed to.  And it's kinda scary knowing that there are kids out there emulating Grand Theft Auto.

So freaken true.  I used to babysit some cousins of mine who were around 6 and 7 or so.  I introduced them to pokemon.  It was amazing how fast they started emulating stuff.  The creepy thing was i could TELL when they recently saw a power ranger episode becuase they would try to punch and kick stuff.  Which is why i let them watch pokemon because they would have to IMAGINE to be something they were not and werent as violent, (in other words they were easier to watch)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 09:25:40 AM
But we're living in a world where there's a whole generation that grew up playing these games, and there's nothing that indicates that this generation has grown up any more maladjustedly than any other generation. Kids that were born when Mortal Kombat and Doom came out are holding full time jobs and getting ready for college, and kids who were old enough to play them have graduated. If there were ill effects, we're seeing them, and I don't see them...
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 09:26:58 AM
You dont see them???

two words: reality TV
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Minnesota on March 02, 2007, 09:33:51 AM
Do the new video game systems have easier to use parental controls? the ps2 parental lock worked well for DVDs, pretty sure it didn't applied to games though

But we're living in a world where there's a whole generation that grew up playing these games, and there's nothing that indicates that this generation has grown up any more maladjustedly than any other generation. Kids that were born when Mortal Kombat and Doom came out are holding full time jobs and getting ready for college, and kids who were old enough to play them have graduated. If there were ill effects, we're seeing them, and I don't see them...

also, I basicaly agree with Pak, I grew with violent games and am neither violent or angry. Although I do remember having to have my Mom by me Mortal Kombat and the clerk pointing out that it was 'violent'.

Here's a question for you over 30 crowd, how old were you when you started watching R rated movies?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 09:35:45 AM
If they ever find a link between Doom and reality TV, I'll fully support the wholesale ban of all games ever. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Minnesota on March 02, 2007, 09:38:21 AM
a link between Doom and reality TV

sounds like a pretty sweet mod  ;D
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 09:43:05 AM
Take THAT, Simon Cowl!
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 10:27:43 AM
But we're living in a world where there's a whole generation that grew up playing these games, and there's nothing that indicates that this generation has grown up any more maladjustedly than any other generation. Kids that were born when Mortal Kombat and Doom came out are holding full time jobs and getting ready for college, and kids who were old enough to play them have graduated. If there were ill effects, we're seeing them, and I don't see them...

There was at least some disconnect between the worlds of reality and mortal combat.  Not so much with the current war games and Grand Theft Auto.  Our generation has not experienced the same games. However, kids are a lot tougher than some give them credit for, and they aren't going to be ruined just by playing games.  I doubt the next generation is going to be any more violent than ours. 

If there will be negative effects, I think it will be in empathy, not violent crime.  It might be a bit harder for a person to empathize with the victim of a drive by shooting after having done it yourself so many times for entertainment.  We see lots of violence ourselves, and  we've become pretty numb already.  We are performing these horrible acts for fun, I can't imagine that it would make us any more sympathetic.  I still enjoy playing them, and it's not going to make me go out and do them, but I am wiling to admit that it takes quite a lot to really disturb me.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 10:34:35 AM
Quote
If there will be negative effects, I think it will be in empathy, not violent crime.

as far as i am concnerned those two things (empathy and violent crime) are directly related. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 10:39:10 AM
Do you feel your immediate reaction to the headline "Man shot in car theft" would be the same if you hadn't played GTA?  I know mine isn't.  Not solely because of video games, but I have been made insensitive by exposure.  If I were to read about it, find out about his family and who he was, that's different.  But it seems like there was a time that just mentioning a shooting would disturb people.  Am I wrong in thinking that? 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 10:41:03 AM
define disturb: do i cry about it and find it hard to work, not usually am i saddened by it?  always
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on March 02, 2007, 11:43:02 AM
The main bulk of Hobbit's post makes sense.  But let me post this hypothetical question.  If it is proven that violent video games do have long lasting negative psychological effects on kids, is it morally ok to let children play these games?  If it is proven that these games have a stronger negative affect than we think, isn't allowing them to play it almost destining them to become violent as adults?  You can argue that the government doesn't have the right to interfere in private matters, but then, in this hypothetical situation, you are arguing that children have the right to grow up to be gang members and murderers. 

I generally agree with you, I just wonder if your position would change if this were slightly different.  And you have to remember, we are not valid examples of the effects of violent video games.  The games we all played as children are nothing compared to the games of today in terms of violence. 

I remember when I was around 7 or 8, my friends and I would pretend to be Star Fox.  Well, I'd be Falco usually.  We'd pretend to fly around in our ships and go on adventures, and we'd talk incoherently every now and then, like the characters in the game did.  Kids like to emulate what they are exposed to.  And it's kinda scary knowing that there are kids out there emulating Grand Theft Auto. 

No, my position would not change.  Part of the price of freedom is the freedom to fail.  Banning something becuase it is shown to have negative consequences is the very essence of tyranny.  Freedom is about being allowed to succeed or fail according to your own merits.  If you are not allowed to fail, then true success will not only be harder, but will be largely hollow.  How many times have you heard of great successes starting as dismal failures?  Dave Ramsey, a nationally syndicated radio host who wrote the book on getting out of debt, overborrowed and overspent in his 20s and went from millionare to bankrupt in a matter of months.  Charles Coleson, the most successful prison minister in the country, was in prison himself for his involvement in Watergate.  Even Jesus had to die in order to save the world.  Once again, freedom means the freedom to make bad choices, too.  A ban on violent content because a few studies think it causes violence is even more asinine than all these smoking bans because of studies that actually prove a link between smoking and cancer.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 02, 2007, 11:45:15 AM
There was at least some disconnect between the worlds of reality and mortal combat. 

That's not what people were saying when Mortal Kombat was popular.  People have always been saying that video games make people unable to distinguish fantasy from reality.  And as hard as it may be to believe now, Mortal Kombat, when it first came out, was one of the most realistic-looking games on the market.  And that was part of what disturbed people about it.  
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 11:53:41 AM
Quote
A ban on violent content because a few studies think it causes violence is even more asinine than all these smoking bans because of studies that actually prove a link between smoking and cancer.

I disagree that banning stuff is a bad idea.  Do you think we should allow child pornography?  There is a line to draw, its a real line.  The only argument is where that line is, but no one thinks allowing EVERYTHING is a good idea.  If something REALLY is negative then one REALLY ought to look at banning it.  Im not saying im for banning video games, but banning smoking is something that seriously needs to be examined.  Its alright if it causes you to fail and whatnot, but when i got to worry about my health (second hand smoke) and my money (My taxs providing your healthcare) its time to consider bigger issues than how you want to have a good time. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 12:04:18 PM
This isn't about succeeding or failing.  It's not about making a bad decision or a good one.  It's about changing people's perceptions of the world to the point where they no longer see their bad decisions as such.  They look at them as a normal and viable option.  If, in the hypothetical situation, video games did twist your perceptions that much, to make violence seem like the best choice, leaving you with no regrets afterward, is that still an option we should give kids?  Is it still right to give kids the freedom to think violence is normal? 

To make the example more extreme and more clear, would it be right to let kids be brainwashed?  Should parents have the freedom to let their kids be taught that violence is the best resolution to most situations?  This attitude will obviously get the child in a lot of trouble when he grows up, because a lot of violence is against the law.  But would you still defend the rights of the parents to raise their kids how they want, and turn their children into something society will have to deal with later?

I'm not saying video games do this, but I think it's an interesting question.  Personally, I would slap a parent upside the head if I saw them doing that to a child.  Why shouldn't the government? 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 12:09:03 PM
Why is it VOC that after you write a response i always feel so damned inarticulate, which is hardly a feeling im used to. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 12:12:56 PM
Ha ha.  It is strange, cause I get the feeling you know a lot more than I do.  If it makes you feel better, you could probably talk circles around me in person.  I'm not much for verbal conversation, unless I have to.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 12:15:47 PM
i feel i used to be much more articulate than i am now.  I have no idea the cause.  which makes me quite sad. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Variety of Cells on March 02, 2007, 12:17:52 PM
You get your ideas across.  And if it takes you two posts, then that's one step closer to letting us all know what the next post count level is.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 12:27:09 PM
It's also important to the argument to remember that these products aren't even remotely being targeted at children. It clearly says MA on the front of the package and more and more retailers are actually respecting the ratings when selling to children. If it were a perfect world, the only "Children" that would be playing GTA would be children 18 and over. Saying that these MA rated titles have a negative effect on children and should be stopped is, to me, like saying the latest R-Rated Gorefest should be banned because children could potentially watch it and be traumatized (And it's likely a few will). If you take it from Video Games, you have to take it from other story-telling devices that portray violence. Should we ban the works of Edgar Alan Poe because of what it could do to a child if one read it? Should we ban Alice in Wonderland because there are groups (That I don't agree with) that believe that it promotes drug use to children?

Protecting the world from things like Child Pornography is one thing. Stepping in and saying something shouldn't be allowed to exist because parents aren't parenting is a lazy shortcut that can only be damaging to the nation.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 12:34:13 PM
Quote
Should we ban Alice in Wonderland because there are groups (That I don't agree with) that believe that it promotes drug use to children?

RRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRROAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGGHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH


I feel like i have been kicked in the nuts.  That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard.  Granted i knew that view point existed prior to your post but it still makes me furious.  Lewis Carrol had no contact with drugs and his concepts are hardly drug related.  The fact that they come from a culture 100 years in our past and were written by an eccentric cambridge (i think) proffessor of symbolic logic makes them seem weirder to us now than they were back then.  One might as well think we ought to ban grim fairy tales.  bastards.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 12:51:46 PM
Quote
Should we ban Alice in Wonderland because there are groups (That I don't agree with) that believe that it promotes drug use to children?

R*SNIP*O*SNIP*A*SNIP*R*SNIP*G*SNIP*H*SNIP*H*SNIP


I feel like i have been kicked in the nuts.  That is the stupidest thing i have ever heard.  Granted i knew that view point existed prior to your post but it still makes me furious.  Lewis Carrol had no contact with drugs and his concepts are hardly drug related.  The fact that they come from a culture 100 years in our past and were written by an eccentric cambridge (i think) proffessor of symbolic logic makes them seem weirder to us now than they were back then.  One might as well think we ought to ban grim fairy tales.  bastards.
I agree wholeheartedly, and judgements like that make me feel like maybe these concerned parents shouldn't have the final say on what gets passed as entertainment. :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 02, 2007, 01:42:44 PM
It think its like those parents and religious leaders who want to ban Harry Potter. Its just a story. J.K. Rowling is not trying to teach children to practic witchcraft. Its like we need to ban Halloween. or fantasy and all of that. Why should we stop making children use their imaginations and become creative? BAH! Humbug!
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 01:59:18 PM
Quote
It think its like those parents and religious leaders who want to ban Harry Potter. Its just a story. J.K. Rowling is not trying to teach children to practic witchcraft. Its like we need to ban Halloween. or fantasy and all of that. Why should we stop making children use their imaginations and become creative? BAH! Humbug!

Im a fervant beleiving christian and even I cant understand the logic of banning or even decrying harry potter, or d and d or halloween. 

Ps if anyone tries to ban halloween they are gonna get a very unchristianly punch in the teeth by yours truly.  Im still pissed at all those losers out there you put poison and razor blades in childrens candy. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Tyrant on March 02, 2007, 02:20:10 PM

  Actually that's an urban myth. It got started when some sick-o father put a razor in his son's candy as a joke or somesuch. It happened only one time. Ever.

  But leave it to parent groups to go nuts over -one- isolated incident. I can't believe they still waste valuable police time/money and equipment nowadays still x-raying candy every Halloween. This is a primary example of how the media can blow things completely out of proportion and scare the population to death to get good ratings.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 02:25:47 PM
Can anyone provide any sources of info on the candy thing?   
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Compound on March 02, 2007, 02:31:11 PM
Snopes' take on the matter is here:
http://www.snopes.com/horrors/mayhem/needles.asp

Lots of needles, few, if any, confirmed razor blades.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Tyrant on March 02, 2007, 02:32:57 PM
Can anyone provide any sources of info on the candy thing?   

  http://www.livescience.com/bestimg/index.php?url=urbanlegends_razorblades_03.jpg&cat=urbanlegends
 (http://www.livescience.com/bestimg/index.php?url=urbanlegends_razorblades_03.jpg&cat=urbanlegends)
   When I read this, I somehow even doubt the father/son razorblade incident.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 02, 2007, 02:36:37 PM
I'm gonna use my 3000th post and new status as Mayor of Nilbog (We'll miss you, Mayor Sarcasm) to show that there aren't any poisonings either.

http://www.snopes.com/horrors/poison/halloween.asp
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 02:40:54 PM
it does look like there was a spat of candy tampering (mostly pins) in 1982, after the tylenol poisonings.  An interesting urban legend, thanks guys.  Yet another reason for us to continue halloween i spose :)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 02, 2007, 03:26:19 PM
Alls I know is my parents didn't let me watch R rated movies or play "M" rated games until I was mature enough to handle them.  Actually, I'm 23 now, and I'm sure my mom still doesn't think I'm mature enough for that kind of stuff, but there's not a whole lot she can do about it now. 

And when I have children of my own, I know I won't let them play anything rated above "E" until they're at least 35 years old.  (Okay, that's a total exaggeration intended for comedic effect.  Most likely, it will probably be closer to 34 years and 3 months old.)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 03:36:31 PM
Quote
And when I have children of my own, I know I won't let them play anything rated above "E" until they're at least 35 years old.  (Okay, that's a total exaggeration intended for comedic effect.  Most likely, it will probably be closer to 34 years and 3 months old.)

2nd
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 02, 2007, 04:13:42 PM
ill 3rd that. I already have started up a DVD collection of movies that i loved as a kid and some that i love now because i worry about what type of movies are going to be out there when i start having kids. 

Back on the halloween thing, something that really bothers me, but hey it may just be me, is the "Trunk-or-Treat" where kids go to a church parkinglot and just get candy from people trunks. I mean it can be understandable depending on the neighborhood your in, but still my favorite thing about going trick-or-treating was going to different houses in a different neighborhood and seeing how many houses i could go to and fill up my pillowcase.  Then there were the big mansions on the hill that everyone wanted to go to so they could get those huge symphony bars and king size snickers.  even if i never make enough to have a mansion i still want to be the dude on the street all the kids want to go to because ill have those big candy bars!


Im a fervant beleiving christian and even I cant understand the logic of banning or even decrying harry potter, or d and d or halloween.   

My parents banned D and D from us kids i think because a lot of the people that played it wouldn't focus on just going to dungons and fighting monsters but would make it become sexual and that i really think was not the purpose of D and D.  and on harry potter i really feel that those dumb parents and religous leaders are trying to find fault in it.  It's so popular that there has to be something bad about it.  They are trying to make the story go too deep. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 04:31:40 PM
Quote
Back on the halloween thing, something that really bothers me, but hey it may just be me, is the "Trunk-or-Treat" where kids go to a church parkinglot and just get candy from people trunks. I mean it can be understandable depending on the neighborhood your in, but still my favorite thing about going trick-or-treating was going to different houses in a different neighborhood and seeing how many houses i could go to and fill up my pillowcase.  Then there were the big mansions on the hill that everyone wanted to go to so they could get those huge symphony bars and king size snickers.  even if i never make enough to have a mansion i still want to be the dude on the street all the kids want to go to because ill have those big candy bars!

i have no problem with the church thing, as long as kids get to dress up as something fun or scary, as long as the imagination is let to run it makes me smile.

Quote
My parents banned D and D from us kids i think because a lot of the people that played it wouldn't focus on just going to dungons and fighting monsters but would make it become sexual and that i really think was not the purpose of D and D.

that sort of logic i totally understand, because ive seen it happen.  Ive met too many people who let D and D screw up their perceptions too much.  They forget its make beleive with dice and get all serious.  Ive played it a few times, and have met some decent friends playing it, but i would worry a bit depending on my childs age when they get into it.  I wouldnt ban it though, i might even PLAY it with my kids so they know how to treat the game.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 02, 2007, 04:43:18 PM
that sort of logic i totally understand, because ive seen it happen.  Ive met too many people who let D and D screw up their perceptions too much.  They forget its make beleive with dice and get all serious.  Ive played it a few times, and have met some decent friends playing it, but i would worry a bit depending on my childs age when they get into it.  I wouldnt ban it though, i might even PLAY it with my kids so they know how to treat the game.

yeah they didnt completly ban it, we still got to play it with eachother, each of us switching on who was the DM, but mostly we just got into playing Oblivion on 360 and Neverwinter Nights (which is D and D) so we were alright.

Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: scottrkrv on March 02, 2007, 06:26:05 PM
a link between Doom and reality TV

sounds like a pretty sweet mod  ;D

...<off to the internets to find such a mod>...
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: scottrkrv on March 02, 2007, 06:39:10 PM
[ I wouldnt ban it though, i might even PLAY it with my kids so they know how to treat the game.

And that is the point...it is a ***GAME***, ie, entertainment, and really has no meaning past that, as long as you are "right" in the head.

My ***VERY*** religious grandmother even allowed me to display FRPG lead figures I had painted, because she knew I did not take it seriously.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 02, 2007, 06:41:02 PM
that and every granny thinks their grandkids painting is always a masterpeice ;)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: scottrkrv on March 02, 2007, 06:44:11 PM
that and every granny thinks their grandkids painting is always a masterpeice ;)

Yeah...they really weren't that great. ;)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on March 03, 2007, 11:32:02 AM
Bah, I come back to defend my position, and the topic has completely changed.  Oh well.  I'm still going to do it.

Child pornography is banned because a child must be harmed to make it.  Animated child porn (ala some of the sicker Japanese stuff) is legal.  You can't just ban something because you think using it is a bad decision.  Good or bad.  Success or failure.  It is your right as a human being to discover these things on your own.  The government's job is to ensure that you get to enjoy that right.  First, they'll ban a few things that are obviously 'for your own good' even if the only person you hurt is yourself.  Then, it's on to things they think cause harm.  Look at the trans-fat ban in New York.  Yeah, they're not good for you, but does that mean the government should send people to jail for offering you the choice of consuming them?  Then there's the new plague of smoking bans.  If I want to allow people to smoke in my private business, is that not my right as the owner of the establishment, no matter what kind of business it is?  Nobody is forced to do business with me.  If they don't like the smoke, they can go elsewhere.  As far as paying the medical costs of others' bad habits, I don't think the government should be paying for that.  If you want to smoke, and it gives you health problems, that's your fault and you should pay for it.  What's next?  A ban on credit cards because they cause you to make poor financial decisions?  I'd argue that they're a LOT more harmful than video games.  So anyway, that's what I think on that.

On to D&D.  I can tell you EXACTLY why all the fundies got their panties in a bunch over D&D.  It was James Dallas Egbert III.  He was a child prodigy who was accepted into Michigan State University in 1978 at age 15 as a computer science student (an exotic degree back then).  The guy was a mental basketcase, though.  His parents placed extreme academic pressure on him, despite his already superb skills.  He was also a closet homosexual (remember, 1978), and by his sophomore year was struggling with drug addiction.  In August of 1979, he disappeared, leaving only a pattern of push-pins on his bulletin board as a clue.  His parents hired P.I. William Dear to find him.  Dear examined the pattern and came up with several possibly theories, some more plausible than others.  The push-pin pattern seemed to be a map of the steam tunnels (although other theories asserted that it could be braille or a gun), and Dear said the most likely scenario is that Egbert had gone into the tunnels to commit suicide (as indicated by the gun shape on the map).  It turns out he was right, and Egbert survived his suicide attempt in the one room not included on the map.  However, the two least likely of his many theories were the ones the press latched onto as fact, those being that Egbert had lost touch with reality and thought he was his D&D character or that Egbert had gone LARPing in the steam tunnels (this was before LARP was done; he didn't know much about D&D, and Egbert hadn't actually played any since coming to college).  Meanwhile, in the real world, Egbert survived his suicide attempt and ran off to New Orleans, where he again attempted suicide and failed.  After that, he moved to take a job at an oil field in Morgan City, LA.  Dear tracked him down, and, at Egbert's pleading, promised not to tell anyone what had really happened and allowed the false media stories continue unchallenged.  The next year, Egbert shot himself in the head.  In 1964, Dear published a book called "The Dungeon Master," revealing the truth of what had happened, but it was too late.  A highly fictionalized book based on the media's D&D sensationalism, "Mazes and Monsters" had already been published in 1981 and was turned into a made for TV movie in 1982, starring Tom Hanks.  Egbert's mother, unconvinced that it was her constant pressure on her prodigy child that drove him over the edge, formed a parents' group called Bother About Dungeons and Dragons (BADD).  That group just plain made stuff up to fight the evils of this dice-based devil's game.  Believing the hype, many, if not the majority, of ministers began preaching that Dungeons and Dragons led to murder, suicide, and Satan worship, and the Dungeons and Dragons community, being geeks, have, until the internet, been unable to convince very many people otherwise.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 03, 2007, 12:05:26 PM
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It is your right as a human being to discover these things on your own.


malarky

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The government's job is to ensure that you get to enjoy that right.

again malarky


the government isnt their to make you happy, or even mainly there to protect your happiness.  The government is their to protect the people from other people/governments.  That is the most fundamental job of the government.  It is only with the recent time frame of OUR governmental system that ideas like yours can even florish. 

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Look at the trans-fat ban in New York

yes lets look at it.  hmmm it looks like it was voted into existance by the majority of the populace and not forced upon an unwilling mass by the big scary government. 

Yeah sorry that was worded a bit harsh i have no ill will towards you specifically.

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As far as paying the medical costs of others' bad habits, I don't think the government should be paying for that.

I used to think that way, but the more i think about it the less i like it.  If people out there are hurting then its the ethical responsbility of those who can help TO HELP.  Since not everyone has yet to understand this moral imperitive, the government does what it can to try to fill in for their idiocy.  On the other hand from a purely evolutionary standpoint, the government that refuses to help feed and heal its people is not long for this earth anyways. 


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A ban on credit cards because they cause you to make poor financial decisions?

Id probably support it. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on March 03, 2007, 12:38:49 PM
So sarcasm, you think that the government exists to force the people of this country to a) not make any bad decisions and b) to force the people of this country to pay for the care of people too stupid to take care of themselves.  That's bullcrap.  The purpose of the United States federal government, as laid out in the Constitution and the Declaration of Independance, is to protect citizens from natural rights infringements, defend the country from hostile forces, and mediate interstate disputes.  It is not the purpose of the government to keep people from making bad decisions.  Nor is the purpose of the government to hand out charity.  Not only is the government naturally poor at making such decisions, but is ineffective at administering aid.  For centuries, it has been the domain of private charities working off of voluntary donations to provide for the needy.  When the government does it, it forces you to contribute by force of law, spends half the money on administrative fees, and hands out the money in a way which will secure more votes for politicians, rather than in a way that helps the most people in the best way.

On an additional note, where, specifically, in the Constitution does it grant our federal government the power to take from the taxpayers and give out as acts of charity, or to limit the power of individuals to make their own decisions with their lives beyond that which is necessary to protect the rights of other individuals?  In fact, I believe it was John Adams who said that he could not place his finger upon the article of the Constitution which gave the government the power to give public money out as an act of charity.

If you want to help people, you can donate to private charities or counsel them on their decisions.  It is also extremely easy to police your own behavior and help yourself.  How is it, though, an act of kindness to eliminate the individual liberties of every citizen in this country to prevent some from making poor decisions, or to forcefully rob people of their hard-earned money to give it to those who you have determined need it more.  Kindness is using your time and money to help others.  To use other people's money or to force decision making is tyranny.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 03, 2007, 01:15:31 PM
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a) not make any bad decisions and b) to force the people of this country to pay for the care of people too stupid to take care of themselves

I never said either of those things.  I said:

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The government is their to protect the people from other people/governments.  That is the most fundamental job of the government.

Further i didnt say to help those to stupid to help themselves, as said to force those to stupid to know they ought to.  big difference. Ill admit you can debate that.

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On an additional note, where, specifically, in the Constitution does it grant our federal government the power to take from the taxpayers and give out as acts of charity

article 1 Section. 8. The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

Thats a direct quote, and falls under the general welfare clause.

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or to limit the power of individuals to make their own decisions with their lives beyond that which is necessary to protect the rights of other individuals

Smoking as was our example does in theory infringe on others rights, thats the logic that was used to get it banned in public. 

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In fact, I believe it was John Adams who said that he could not place his finger upon the article of the Constitution which gave the government the power to give public money out as an act of charity.

Luckily for adams the supreme court found it for him.  I am afraid i forget the specific case, but part of their logic came from the preamble where they said that the clause general welfare was to also mean medical help for the needy. 

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  It is also extremely easy to police your own behavior and help yourself.

no it isnt thats why we have crime in the first place.

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Kindness is using your time and money to help others.

what charity do you belong to just out of curiosity?

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To use other people's money or to force decision making is tyranny.

yup
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 03, 2007, 01:51:05 PM
So I guess the real question is: If the government were to decide to take video games away from us, would that fall under the category of "Protecting" us, or would they be overstepping their boundaries?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 03, 2007, 02:00:17 PM
well leave it to pak-man to ask a REAL and PRACTICAL question. 

I dont think there is a real way to make that argument the argument of "video games are so damaging that the need to be categorically locked away.  One could make the argument for censoship in the same way that movies are.  They already have a very similar rating system.  So if they did (i really dont know how that would work) they would be overstepping. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: mrbasehart on March 03, 2007, 02:04:34 PM
So I guess the real question is: If the government were to decide to take video games away from us, would that fall under the category of "Protecting" us, or would they be overstepping their boundaries?

You probably already know this, but Greece did ban video games for a little while a couple of years ago.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_electronic_game_ban (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Greek_electronic_game_ban)

I feel that as long as the various ratings systems are enforced properly, and games aren't seen as just for children, then there is no need for government regulation on the medium.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 03, 2007, 02:10:49 PM
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I feel that as long as the various ratings systems are enforced properly, and games aren't seen as just for children, then there is no need for government regulation on the medium

Heh isnt the rating system a form of regulation anyways? lol
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: mrbasehart on March 03, 2007, 03:14:06 PM
Perhaps I should've written:

I feel that as long as the various ratings systems are enforced properly, and games aren't seen as just for children, then there is no need for any other government regulation on the medium.   ;D
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 03, 2007, 03:44:06 PM
well leave it to me to be that ass who points that out :)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Hobbit on March 03, 2007, 07:55:06 PM
Perhaps I should've written:

I feel that as long as the various ratings systems are enforced properly, and games aren't seen as just for children, then there is no need for any other government regulation on the medium.   ;D

There's no regulation as it is.  The ESRB is a private company and there's no law against selling rated 'M' games to minors except a few local ordinances scattered across the country.  The industry polices itself.  However, the government is already maneuvering for an ESRB takeover, starting with political pressure to get them to alter ratings for games based on user-created content and attempting to pass legislation holding them responsible for such things.  Nobody can live up to it, and if it passes, it will lead to a bunch of blame put on the ESRB until it folds.

Constitutionally, though, the federal government has no right to limit the sales of video games based on content (barring such things as disclosure of classified material).  It is not given that power by the Constitution, and the 10th ammendment clearly states that any power NOT given to the federal government by the Constitution is a power the federal government does not have.  Contrary to popular belief, the idea that the 'general welfare' clause (a non-binding phrase used in the preamble, which carries no legal weight but simply makes a statement as to the purpose of the Constitution) and the 'necessary and proper' clause grant the federal government whatever power it thinks it needs is the slick maneuvering by a bunch of lawyers attempting to manipulate the system to their own ends.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 03, 2007, 10:53:25 PM
However, the government is already maneuvering for an ESRB takeover, starting with political pressure to get them to alter ratings for games based on user-created content and attempting to pass legislation holding them responsible for such things.  Nobody can live up to it, and if it passes, it will lead to a bunch of blame put on the ESRB until it folds.

I have a problem with the user-created content part. The Sims (A generally family-friendly game, or at its worst a T-Rated game) has a LOT of user-created content, including many "Clothes" for the Sims that makes them appear stark naked. I don't see how they could hold EA responsible for that, unless the argument is that there should BE no user-created content. The Sims ain't an M-Rated game, and the user-content is part of the experience. Because a few people out there made some racy skins, should its ratings suffer?
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Rufus T on March 04, 2007, 08:52:48 AM
 There is nothing evil about video games whatsoever. Except for Yoshimitsu from Soulcalibur. He's pretty evil.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 04, 2007, 01:42:01 PM
Quote
Constitutionally, though, the federal government has no right to limit the sales of video games based on content (barring such things as disclosure of classified material).  It is not given that power by the Constitution, and the 10th ammendment clearly states that any power NOT given to the federal government by the Constitution is a power the federal government does not have.  Contrary to popular belief, the idea that the 'general welfare' clause (a non-binding phrase used in the preamble, which carries no legal weight but simply makes a statement as to the purpose of the Constitution) and the 'necessary and proper' clause grant the federal government whatever power it thinks it needs is the slick maneuvering by a bunch of lawyers attempting to manipulate the system to their own ends.

My example wasnt used for the banning of games, but for the reason why we have a national healthcare plan.  The constitution CLEARLY lays out that congress is responsible for raising taxes, and spending it for the good of the people.  I was reffering to a specific case about this, although admittedly i cant remember what the case was called, where they stated that the preamble states that the intent of the constitution is to look out for the people and since congress is responsible for the taxes they may spend on health care as clearly falls into the general welfare of the public logic.  Of course one could also use that logic about the money spent on national parks and other such things. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 05, 2007, 12:43:42 PM
Blaming the companies for user created content is like blaming, say, J. K. Rowling for a really offensive Harry Potter fanfic. 

Personally, I would like for parents to take more responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof, when raising their children.  They need to take the time to learn the game ratings systems so they know what's appropriate for their kids.  And they need to make sure that other people are aware of these things, too.  Friends, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, anyone their child has contact with on a regular basis.  On the other hand, the game stores should also take more responsibility, as well.  If an elderly grandmother comes in and asks for a copy of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for her grandson, they need to ask if she really thinks it's an age-appropriate game for him, and if not, suggest a game that is more age-appropriate.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Brak on March 05, 2007, 05:33:04 PM
Blaming the companies for user created content is like blaming, say, J. K. Rowling for a really offensive Harry Potter fanfic. 

Personally, I would like for parents to take more responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof, when raising their children.  They need to take the time to learn the game ratings systems so they know what's appropriate for their kids.  And they need to make sure that other people are aware of these things, too.  Friends, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, anyone their child has contact with on a regular basis.  On the other hand, the game stores should also take more responsibility, as well.  If an elderly grandmother comes in and asks for a copy of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for her grandson, they need to ask if she really thinks it's an age-appropriate game for him, and if not, suggest a game that is more age-appropriate.

I agree.  Retailers should try to have better knowledge about what they are selling. Why even the other day i was over at my local Toys R Us just to see what their video game section was like and see if they had any ideas about when a few games i wanted were going to be released. I asked them about Guitar Hero II on 360 and if they had a release date for it. The guy who i talked to on his name tag said that he had been working there since 1995. All he said basicly was "what is guitar hero? I havent heard of anything like that on the Xbox"  I was like DUDE! if your going to be selling this stuff you need to know your product!  No wonder people i talk to never go there to buy video games. They usually are overpriced and their knowledge of the product just isnt that great at all. 

And to go with what Pak was saying, I think one of the main reasons that the ESRB changed the rating for Oblivion to M from T was because someone had found a way to modify the "undergarment" patch for the women in the game so that they could see thier boobies if you took off their armor or clothes.  and i think the other reason was because there was more violence then was first sent to them, but still because of that modification it had partly caused the rating to change.  Its just dissapointing.  Oblivion is a great game to play, one of my favorites of last year, and just because some pervs decide its cool to see virtual boobies while they are playing is agrivating! that's not what this game is about! Same with the Sims.  BAH!
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Swish on March 06, 2007, 02:18:16 AM
Oh, Oh, I know this!

The ESRB's reclassification of Oblivion was damage control. News of the topless patch was getting out, and its creator was being unnecessarily misleading about how it was made. Basically they didn't want another Hot Coffee on their hands.

Here is the misleading creator quote:
Quote
This was actually insanely easy. The files were all included in the retail game. All it took is extracting the files from the .bsa archives, noticing the skins already had the proper anatomy, figuring out that Bethesda WANTED us to do this, and renaming "femaleupperbodynude.nif" to "femaleupperbody.nif"... and it was done.

The fact is, however, that they were wrong to reclassify it. The creator's description of how it was made led many of the elves who live on the Internet to believe that the nudity itself was found on the disc. Being skeptical of this (although mostly because I wanted to see Oblivion 'under the hood' - there's lots of stuff and it's all very boring if you're wondering), I decompiled Oblivion (which took ages) and checked. The file "femaileupperbodynude.nif" has the same body texture reference as "femaleupperbody.nif". The only difference is that a bra is modelled onto the latter (the bra having its own separate texture). The textures (including the normal map) themselves are nipple-free, so Nvidia's DDS Photoshop plugin tells me.

What the modder actually did (that is, apart from rename a file) is edit these textures, adding nipples to both the diffuse and normal maps. I can only assume, then, that (for the purpose of normal mapping) the "maleupperbody" textures' nipples were copied over in Photoshop. Either that, or new ones were created. But either way, it's unfair to say that Bethesda had concealed anything from the ESRB in the manner of Hot Coffee. I'd have thought you could just as easily copy nipples over in The Sims and remove the blur effect. In fact slightly easier because you wouldn't have to fiddle with normal maps, which are kind of specialist knowledge.

As for the topless model, it presumably exists for technical reasons - clipping for example. I don't know, ask Bethesda - I got bored scowering the millions of files after a while.

I'm not convinced by the ESRB's "also, violence" statement regarding this, and neither were Bethesda if I remember correctly.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: Pak-Man on March 06, 2007, 09:06:20 AM
Didn't Daggerfall (Which had unhidden and unashamed nudity contained within) snag a T rating? :^)
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: MrTorso on March 08, 2007, 04:02:42 PM
Blaming the companies for user created content is like blaming, say, J. K. Rowling for a really offensive Harry Potter fanfic. 

Personally, I would like for parents to take more responsibility for their actions, or lack thereof, when raising their children.  They need to take the time to learn the game ratings systems so they know what's appropriate for their kids.  And they need to make sure that other people are aware of these things, too.  Friends, grandparents, uncles, aunts, cousins, anyone their child has contact with on a regular basis.  On the other hand, the game stores should also take more responsibility, as well.  If an elderly grandmother comes in and asks for a copy of Grand Theft Auto: San Andreas for her grandson, they need to ask if she really thinks it's an age-appropriate game for him, and if not, suggest a game that is more age-appropriate.

Why? It is not MY job as a retailer to second guess or to tell people how to be a parent to their child at all.  I know I wouldn't want a clerk at a video game store to tell me how to raise my kids.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 08, 2007, 04:10:47 PM
yeah but you take that logic too far and you start getting, to things like cheif wiggims quote: what you dont think we can be "Policing" you all the time. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: MrTorso on March 08, 2007, 04:25:32 PM
yeah but you take that logic too far and you start getting, to things like cheif wiggims quote: what you dont think we can be "Policing" you all the time. 


But you can take anything too far. 
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 08, 2007, 04:29:00 PM
and i say you can take anything not too far enough
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: daltysmilth on March 09, 2007, 02:37:48 PM
Well said, sarcasm.  And what I'm trying to say is that everyone needs to take more responsibility all around.  Parents, retailers, the ESRB, even the game developers themselves.  Everyone except the government.  The game industry is one place I'd like the government to keep their grubby hands away from.
Title: Re: Video Games= Evil
Post by: sarcasm_made_Easy on March 09, 2007, 02:39:39 PM
as ive stated many times before i would prefer to live in an 1984 orwellian, bradburian type of post apocolyptic big brother type of place, so i think the government should get involved ;)